Guest post by Tobias Ziegler
Cross posted at Not A Hedgehog
Here is an interesting case study in how Bolt uses selective reporting and distorted interpretation to weave a new pseudo-fact into his narrative.
It starts with this BBC News story on Bangladesh:
New research shows Bangladesh may not be as vulnerable to rising sea levels caused by climate change as previously feared, scientists in Dhaka say.
They say satellite images show the country’s landmass is actually growing because of sediment dumped by rivers.
Now, note that this story does not actually relate to research evidence for or against global warming. Instead, the research suggests instead that any loss of land mass due to rising sea levels will be offset to some extent by “new land” being created as sediment gathers in the delta regions where rivers flow into the Bay of Bengal.
But to what extent will it offset a rise in sea levels? The researcher says:
Mr Sarkar said that in the next 50 years this could add up to the country gaining 1,000 square kilometres.
That would be a gain in landmass of well under 1%. On the other hand, the IPCC projections for the impact of rising sea levels look like this:
A report by UN scientists has projected that rising sea levels will inundate 17% of Bangladesh by 2050, making about 30 million people homeless.
Which leads Dr Atiq Rahman to this conclusion:
“The rate at which sediment is deposited and new land is created is much slower than the rate at which climate change and sea level rises are taking place,” he said.
All of these details are reported in the BBC’s story. What does Bolt choose to tell his readers?
Bangladesh growing, warming hype receding
Al Gore wept for the people of Bangladesh, millions of whom would be made homeless – he claimed – as global warming caused rising seas that would drown their low-lying country.Small problem. Bangladesh is not sinking, but growing:
New research shows Bangladesh may not be as vulnerable to rising sea levels caused by climate change as previously feared, scientists in Dhaka say.They say satellite images show the country’s landmass is actually growing because of sediment dumped by rivers.
A report by UN scientists has projected that rising sea levels will inundate 17% of Bangladesh by 2050, making about 30 million people homeless.
Satellite images of Bangladesh over the past 32 years show that the country is growing annually by about 20 square kilometres (12.5 square miles), said Maminul Haque Sarker of the Dhaka-based Centre for Environment and Geographic Information Services.
So, he manages to fold Al Gore into the story, which begins to tie it to the broader “don’t believe the hype” narrative Bolt has constructed. Now, how does he handle the response by the IPCC scientist?
Naturally, confronted by the real-world data, one of the IPCC scientists responsible for the scare puts his faith instead in the theory:
Dr Atiq Rahman, a lead author of the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report, told the BBC that there was little in the new research to make him think that their projection needed revising.
Work in the buzzwords – remind readers that it’s a “scare”, and denigrate a scientist as relying on “faith”. Suggest that “real-world data” should trump “theory”, when in fact they are not contradictory – the research data being reported addresses historical change, whereas the theoretical projections (derived from empirical evidence) address the future effects of an entirely different factor. Finish dismissing the expert with this:
And why not. Believer Rahman has a far more reliable way of measuring sea level rises and land growth than mere satellites:
He said that many people living along the coast had observed that sea levels where higher now than in their grandparents’ day.
Include the non-quotation in the report of Dr Rahman’s comment (along with another implication of zealotry – “Believer”) that mentioned some anecdotal reports, while leaving out the next sentence (which I have provided earlier), which would have quoted Rahman noting that the land gains from sediment will not offset the sea level rise. Make him sound as illogical as possible.
Then, finish it off by bringing it back to Gore again:
Is he joking? I think we can safely add this to the long list of Al Gore whoppers. His Nobel Prize should really have been for literature.
So, there is Bolt’s detailed reporting of the new Bangladesh research. A finding that shows a small landmass growth unrelated to climate change gets turned into a rebuttal of the notion that rising sea levels could be a problem for a low-lying country. From this point, it can become another one of the “facts” that Bolt can state in any of his attack pieces on global warming, shopping bags, activist judges, or anything else where teh Left is a target. Leftists think we should respect human rights? These are the same Gore-worshipping bozos who said Bangladesh would sink into the sea.
It starts here, in a self-congratulatory post on how well he understands the role of blogs and how he is reshaping the world:
Take this week alone. If Alarmist of the Year Tim Flannery has said global warming will leave Perth parched, I can run a graph showing its dams haven’t been so full in years.
If Al Gore says Bangladesh will drown under rising seas, I can show that satellite measurements prove the country is growing, not shrinking.
If the UN’s climate scientists warn of doom, I can link to a new peer-reviewed study showing none of their predictions seem to be coming true.
If some other alarmist says the North Pole is almost gone, I can run satellite pictures from Wednesday showing much more ice there now than at this time last year.
And thus the patchwork narrative is woven. We will see where the rising lands of Bangladesh pop up next.
269 Comments
4 August, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Whaqt more can be said – Bolt’s dishonesty is quite clearly exposed for all to see.
Even the rusted on Boltophiles who occasionally troll through this site won’t be able to deny the deliberate misrepresentation that you’ve identified.
Great work.
4 August, 2008 at 4:07 pm
excellent. excellent.
watching andy on insider yesterday still lying about carbon scheme, still bullying other pannelists and behaving like a boorish tool, his time must surely be up. even the other pannelists were saying he was a liberal party backbencher and laughing at his contstant denials.
hes a joke!
4 August, 2008 at 4:18 pm
Bolt has found a niche….the AGW contrarian, and he’s going to play it for all it’s worth.
4 August, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Great stuff – a very solid rebuttal of Bolt’s dissembling.
4 August, 2008 at 5:32 pm
Even the rusted on Boltophiles who occasionally troll through this site won’t be able to deny the deliberate misrepresentation that you’ve identified.
I wish that were so, Mondo. But if the Boltards have proven anything, it’s that they are capable of denying anything.
I’m tipping we’ll either have complete silence from them, or flagrant distortion of the topic, using the entire kit of dishonest, disingenuous rhetorical tools they’ve gleaned from months of slobbering over the proclamations of their messiah.
By the way — terrific work, Tobias.
4 August, 2008 at 5:50 pm
Good post Tobias. Just another example of how easy it is to expose Bolt’s “work” on so many occasions. The man is a two bit hack with literary and analytical skills that would be found wanting on high-school level assignments.
I have often wondered whether bolt actually reads the full articles that he links too, or whether he just reads a select part of an article, gets all exited and through cognitive dissonance blanks out parts that contradict his usually idiotic knee-jerked position.
Unfortunately too many people are blind to even considering Bolt’s repeated misrepresentations, and ridiculous assertions, as he represent their blind political faith. He fills a niche and serves an audience that will always exist in Australia, and the mindless drones that support him simply take his word for it, and don’t assess the rubbish he serves up. He serves an audience that don’t really want to think, who would prefer to be served up tabloid rubbish. simplistic feel-good messages about how great they are He truly is the Paris Hilton of the Australian political blogsphere.
4 August, 2008 at 5:57 pm
“I have often wondered whether bolt actually reads the full articles that he links too, or whether he just reads a select part of an article…”
Great example of exactly that today, where he snips one line from an extract of a book and concludes that the author hates freedom.
4 August, 2008 at 5:58 pm
And yeah, I echo others here (in true groupthink fashion) in saying, good post, Tobes.
4 August, 2008 at 6:52 pm
tim dunlop today links to this fellow conservative….sorry, moderate who thoroughly denouces bolts take on ‘world hasn’t warmed in 10 years’.
http://kalimna.blogspot.com/2008/08/no-global-heating-did-not-stop-in-1998.html
even bolt’s own kind are turning on him now……
4 August, 2008 at 7:06 pm
He has become so used to getting away with the little lies, and the little deceits that conspire towards his misrepresentations of people, articles and statistic, that his sloppy, disingenuous and dishonest behaviour, has simply become normal to him. Ultimately the little lies and little deceits usually add up to one big lie or one big deceit, of which he will not be held to account for by his own self-conscious or his pack of non-thinking, knee-jerked ubiquitous supporters.
4 August, 2008 at 7:26 pm
Brilliant! Now where is Rad for his comments?
4 August, 2008 at 7:50 pm
Thanks for the positive feedback. Like Ant, I don’t expect writing this kind of stuff to have any impact on the true Boltheads. I have tried arguing points in the comments on Bolt’s site and you can’t convince the crowd there.
What I think is important is to get some information out there so that people who come across his writing and are reading it with an open mind can also find some counter-arguments. It doesn’t take a lot of digging to find that Bolt is just a combination of arrogance, deceitfulness and stupidity.
4 August, 2008 at 8:05 pm
… in sensible tan pants.
4 August, 2008 at 8:18 pm
“I’m tipping we’ll either have complete silence from them, or flagrant distortion of the topic, using the entire kit of dishonest, disingenuous rhetorical tools they’ve gleaned from months of slobbering over the proclamations of their messiah.”
I’m not one for Boltesque, sickening pissing in the pocket of the blog host, but might I say, brilliantly put! To which if you were Bolt, you would reply with something like: Thankyou well put, thanks for the support, I agree I am great.
4 August, 2008 at 8:29 pm
You’re right Tobias, in the fashion of a young obnoxious child, the Boltists will cede no ground, even when exposed for being complete imbeciles or completely wrong on a certain issue. In any event they will always be backed up by their fellow mindless Bolt sycophants. In that way I see the real Boltists as religious zealot types, brain-washed and impossible to reason with, as they circle-jerk and slime their ways out of rational debate.
For people not too far afflicted to be saved, sites like these are very important to expose Bolt’s distortions and deceptions for what they are.
I will acknowledge that on face value Bolt’s columns often seen to have a point,
and sometimes on rare occasions, Bolt does actually make a reasonable argument, however generally a quick perusal of the facts surrounding Bolt’s rant or even a quick check of the links he provides, reveals at least on pretty simple fact that shoots his whole position down.
4 August, 2008 at 8:52 pm
A very good analysis Tobias. I suspect Bolt’s motivations are totally Machiavellian. He doesn’t read with an open mind – he is totally bent on extracting snippets distorted in a way he feels will support his arguments.
So easy to see through – yet his supporters turn a blind eye. They “want to believe”.
4 August, 2008 at 8:54 pm
TZ
sorry for length and because i can’t do the fancy italics or indent thing that others can.
a ‘real’ scientist (as opposed to the usual drivel from herdlocked TM) posted on bolt blog yesterday with this comment:
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/most_new_research_findings_are_false/#commentsmore
“I reference [john] Ioannidis’s work in my book Science and Public Policy: The Virtuous Corruption of Virtual Environmental Science, and I agree with Strange Days Indeed [bolt reader] — but not in a way he would wish for. The difference between the two (medical science and climate science) is that drug trial protocols involve separate, independent teams making up active doses and placebos, adminstering doses, diagnosing effects, and performing statistical analysis. This is done to minimise the intrusion of subjective factors into the research — a known risk. Unfortunately, in climate science, the same teams routinely do it all, then act as IPCC lead authors to sit in judgement on their work, and then act as political boosters for the political cause they think their ‘science’ supports. Any sceptical voices can then be likened to (Holocaust) deniers in the pay of ExxonMobil by media studies types who do their research at Greenpeace’s ExxonSecrets.org. (For the record, Exxon spends more than $120m pa on philanthropy, of which much goes to environmental causes ($25m alone to a climate change research centre at Standford)and $1B pa to deal with the issue within its business. Put $3m into perspective – but who needs perspective!)
Aynsley Kellow of Hobart (Reply)
Sun 03 Aug 08 (09:01am) ”
this post has led bolt to infer that the review of climate science should be treated differently to medical science and not be peer reviewed. surely another boltism in that ‘peer review’ of climate science is NOT the same as ‘peer review’ of RCT results in pharmacotherapy or treatment regimes?
more bolt twisting!
4 August, 2008 at 9:40 pm
Confessions, here’s my quick take on that post and its comments (BTW, I now have a Hartlod induced ‘headache’ and need to have a ‘good lie-down’):
What Professor Kellow has left out of his description of the process is the stage that actually involves peer-review. He jumps straight from the climate science teams doing the research to the IPCC report authors.
The IPCC reports draw on the empirical evidence and theory published in peer-reviewed journals. So, even though the IPCC reports themselves are not peer-reviewed publications, any claim to bias would need to focus on either (i) how and why the peer review process in journals favours manuscripts that support global warming, or (ii) some kind of selection bias in which published work the IPCC draws on. I haven’t read Kellow’s book, but in the comments he has posted I don’t see those issues addressed.
Bolt’s arguments go in whichever direction favours him. He is happy to rely on qualifications, expertise and peer critique when he can find a scientist whose argument can be shaped to fit his own point. When he can’t, he will try to argue that the field is tainted by its vested interest in promoting hysteria. If he is going to argue against peer review then he needs to propose an alternative model for deciding what should be published – I would presume that he would be happy to exercise executive fiat all by himself.
4 August, 2008 at 10:01 pm
thanks TZ. i suspected as much about the peer review process, esp with journals but wasn’t sure.
4 August, 2008 at 10:43 pm
Amusing that Bolt seems to think that land masses growing is a novel idea. Was he asleep in Yr 8 Geography class? Bangladesh is little more than a big delta and has always been growing.
However, Bolt may find a nasty incompatibility between his recent discovery of delta’s and his championing of dams. Dams are a great way to stop the growth of delta’s. Any chance we’ll see Bolt now turn into an anti-dams activist?
5 August, 2008 at 1:08 am
Nice work, TZ.
5 August, 2008 at 6:35 am
Where’s Rad!!! I’ll love to see his take on Andrew ( i am the greatest, because my sheep says i am ) Bolts’ lies!
And, another great expose. :-)
5 August, 2008 at 7:20 am
Bolt’s Law continues to operate today:
Shouldn’t the link between communism and global warming advocacy mean that we can get China to reduce emissions after all?
5 August, 2008 at 9:07 am
As a global warming skeptic, I’m inclined to agree that this information doesn’ t really speak one way or the other for Bolt’s main case (that climate alarmism is wrong).
On the other hand, it does show that the disaster scenarios that are regularly predicted for the future as a result of global warming are overblown and require playing fast and loose with the facts.
This is also a part of Bolt’s position: that the sexy doomsday scenarios sound nice and neat at first pass, but it’s not really that simple.
“Warning! Most of Bangladesh will flood when the oceans rise and millions will drown as a result of global warming!” is catchy.
“Bangladesh might experience increased floods, but these might be at least partially offset by increased deposits of sedimentation” is not catchy.
Yet the second one is more reasoned and more factually based than the first.
It’s more… scientific.
5 August, 2008 at 9:22 am
Dave,
What is the source of your quotation, “Warning! Most of Bangladesh will flood when the oceans rise and millions will drown as a result of global warming!” The closest the source I linked to gets to that is to note that, “A report by UN scientists has projected that rising sea levels will inundate 17% of Bangladesh by 2050, making about 30 million people homeless.”
5 August, 2008 at 9:42 am
omg! there is no end to the man’s narcissicm! assuming that it is him promoting himself.
http://www.andrewbolt.com/
5 August, 2008 at 9:47 am
omg! there is no end to the man’s narcissicm! assuming that it is him promoting himself.
Are you for real confessions?
Andrew Bolt is a very well know Australian columnist. It is not unreasonable to expect that he would move to have a website.
You are acting like it is the 1980’s or something.
5 August, 2008 at 9:55 am
Doesn’t look like it’s him – registered (back in 2001, in fact) to an organisation in Perth and a quick search of the Google shows an Andrew Bolt who is General Manager of the Perth Concert Hall.
5 August, 2008 at 9:57 am
Tobias, it was an off-the-cuff stereotypical alarmist prediction. However, while “drowning” is not predicted, displacement is predicted, (in the “tens of millions”).
Tens of millions are set to be displaced by global warming in Bangladesh through rising sea levels and droughts.
As sea levels rise and storms increase in number and severity,
vast areas of land will be swallowed by the sea, experts say.
Bolt and Blair regularly call out climate alarmists for their overblown predictions. In that respect, this post by Bolt is nothing new and is entirely consistent with his position.
5 August, 2008 at 9:59 am
DD: On the other hand, it does show that the disaster scenarios that are regularly predicted for the future as a result of global warming are overblown and require playing fast and loose with the facts.
It goes without saying that this is a fundamentally ridiculous conclusion to draw from the fact that Bangladesh’s many rivers continue to deposit sediment into the ocean. There appears to be a significant deficit of reason amongst the die hard groupthinkers at Bolt’s site.
Rad – any comment to make on the obvious distortions within Bolt’s analysis of the Bangladesh data? Are you at least willing to admit that Bolt has been deceptive in his analysis of this issue?
5 August, 2008 at 10:53 am
So the original quote was your representation of what people say rather than reality. The two quotes you have given links to seem entirely consistent with the projections based on scientific modeling (i.e., significant landmass loss in Bangladesh due to rising sea levels) – what exactly is “alarmist” about them?
Bolt’s response to a report on a slight gain in landmass due to sedimentation is to imply that the country is in no danger at all. Isn’t understating a danger just as reckless and irresponsible as exaggerating any risks? It seems to me that Bolt is guilty of exactly the kind of distortion of the facts that he accuses others of – just in the opposite direction.
5 August, 2008 at 11:01 am
this post by Bolt is nothing new
Well at least we can agree on that Dave.
5 August, 2008 at 11:17 am
Rad – any comment to make on the obvious distortions within Bolt’s analysis of the Bangladesh data? Are you at least willing to admit that Bolt has been deceptive in his analysis of this issue?
You have missed bolt’s point. As Dave has pointed out, he is trying to debunk the hysteria that the media do when the “sex-up” the science.
This is also a part of Bolt’s position: that the sexy doomsday scenarios sound nice and neat at first pass, but it’s not really that simple
Both Al Gore and flannery are guilty of doing this. Al Gore’s own film “An Inconvenient truth” has already been proven to be guilty of Bolt’s accusations.
http://newparty.co.uk/articles/inaccuracies-gore.html
5 August, 2008 at 11:39 am
Rad, you seem to be arguing that if Bolt thinks others are distorting the evidence in one direction, he is perfectly justified in doing the same in the opposite direction. The implication of this is that you would agree that Bolt’s representation of the evidence is inaccurate – but that he is doing it to be ironic. Is that correct?
5 August, 2008 at 11:43 am
“Are you for real confessions?”
yes rad i am. this site has consistently shown bolt to misrepresent and distort facts to suit his own ideological agenda. if you think him starting another website to extend these distortions further is a good thing then perhaps it is you who is living in the 80s.
in any case it seems as though the andrewbolt in question is someone else.
5 August, 2008 at 12:03 pm
Have a look at the knots Rad Pipper is prepared to twist himself into to defend an indefensible piece of dishonesty from Bolt. Clearly people of Rad’s ilk (and we’ve seen plenty of them here) consider Bolt infallible — yet they have the nerve to call people who are concerned about the environment “religious” zealots and easily led barrackers!
5 August, 2008 at 12:15 pm
yes rad i am. this site has consistently shown bolt to misrepresent and distort facts to suit his own ideological agenda. if you think him starting another website to extend these distortions further is a good thing then perhaps it is you who is living in the 80s
But that’s not what you said. You made the accusation that he must be narcissistic to have a website using his name…
omg! there is no end to the man’s narcissicm! assuming that it is him promoting himself
He is a very successfully media columnist. So whether you love or loath him, it would not be narcissistic for him to have a website given his career.
5 August, 2008 at 12:16 pm
Bolt’s take on delta formation is nuts at any rate.
The “new land” created is sand and mud banks barely above the high water mark. It usually takes decades, even centuries, for this to consolidate into terra firma for people to live on. In the mean time it’s subject to even small storm surges and a small sea-level rise would return it to the realm of the inter-tidal zone.
Bolt’s got a screw loose if he thinks this story supports his delusional AGW contrarianism.
5 August, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Have a look at the knots Rad Pipper is prepared to twist himself into to defend an indefensible piece of dishonesty from Bolt.
So Ant, what is your opinion of Al Gore given that his film has been proven to be full of inaccuracies?
http://newparty.co.uk/articles/inaccuracies-gore.html
Do you show Gore the equal attention that you show Bolt? Especially given that this proves gore’s film is; an indefensible piece of dishonesty
5 August, 2008 at 12:19 pm
He is a very successfully media columnist. So whether you love or loath him, it would not be narcissistic for him to have a website given his career.
But Matt, the other day you were saying Bolt has nothing to gain by being at the forefront of the AGW debate and that it was only News Limited that stood to gain from his notoriety. Why then does he have his own website? Why pay for that?
5 August, 2008 at 12:22 pm
So Ant, what is your opinion of Al Gore given that his film has been proven to be full of inaccuracies?
The Mighty Matt deflection. Classic.
5 August, 2008 at 12:25 pm
You have missed bolt’s point. As Dave has pointed out, he is trying to debunk the hysteria that the media do when the “sex-up” the science.
Lets assume you’re correct Rad – are you willing to admit that Bolt is achieving this ‘debunking’, at least in the current instance, by misrepresenting the facts?
5 August, 2008 at 12:27 pm
“You made the accusation that he must be narcissistic to have a website using his name…”
exactly. esp when we all know that he loves using any media forum to peddle his distorted facts, even the ‘biaised’ abc.
“So whether you love or loath him, it would not be narcissistic for him to have a website given his career.”
yes rad it would. esp given he distorts and misrepresents facts. that he can continue to behave that way in the face of very precise and accurate scientific critique of his ‘interpretations’ simply shows him to be incredibly narcissistc.
in any case, we know now that the website isn’t him. thank god. so this discussion is redundant.
5 August, 2008 at 12:27 pm
“The two quotes you have given links to seem entirely consistent with the projections based on scientific modeling (i.e., significant landmass loss in Bangladesh due to rising sea levels) – what exactly is “alarmist” about them?”
the alarmist spin. “tens of millions” displaced etc. You can’t model that scientifically, certainly not in the same space as a climate model. that’s basically trying to model the whole universe.
Still I think Bolt’s barking up the wrong tree here. Bangladesh’s problem is that it’s (a) poor and (b) flood-prone. bangladesh is in deep trouble today. If the ocean doesn’t rise by a single millimetre, Bangladesh will continue to have disasters, human displacement and misery.
However, that’s a typical alarmist strategy. Find a natural disaster that’s probably going to occur anyway, and then predict it on the basis of your modelling. e.g., Bangladesh will flood, australia will have droughts, etc.
5 August, 2008 at 12:35 pm
So Ant, what is your opinion of Al Gore given that his film has been proven to be full of inaccuracies?
In other words: “Look, all I’m saying is that Bolt—OH MY GOD, LOOK, WHAT’S THAT OVER YOUR SHOULDER?!!1!”
You’re embarrassing yourself, Rad Pipper. But thanks for fulfilling my prediction last night that BoltStrokers would resort to:
flagrant distortion of the topic, using the entire kit of dishonest, disingenuous rhetorical tools they’ve gleaned from months of slobbering over the proclamations of their messiah.
Couldn’t have scripted it better.
5 August, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Bolt is not misrepresenting the facts.
He states;
Al Gore wept for the people of Bangladesh, millions of whom would be made homeless – he claimed – as global warming caused rising seas that would drown their low-lying country.
Small problem. Bangladesh is not sinking, but growing
He is correct. Until the supposed effects of climate change kick in and the land mass of Bangladesh starts to decrease then it is correct to say that Bangladesh is growing.
As stated;
New research shows Bangladesh may not be as vulnerable to rising sea levels caused by climate change as previously feared, scientists in Dhaka say.
They say satellite images show the country’s landmass is actually growing because of sediment dumped by rivers
They then go onto to say;
A report by UN scientists has projected that rising sea levels will inundate 17% of Bangladesh by 2050, making about 30 million people homeless
It is only a projection at this point so until that projection turns into FACT, then Bolt is correct to say; Bangladesh is not sinking, but growing
5 August, 2008 at 12:46 pm
In other words Ant, you don’t care about Al Gore’s film which has been proven to be full of inaccuracies and deception.
5 August, 2008 at 12:53 pm
Comedy gold.
5 August, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Rad
Leave Gore out of this one, just for the moment, and address the post that Tobias has written.
Addressing the specific question asked by Tobias would be a start:
“The implication of this is that you would agree that Bolt’s representation of the evidence is inaccurate – but that he is doing it to be ironic. Is that correct?
Oh, and just stop it with the mental contortions, it’s painful to read.
5 August, 2008 at 1:11 pm
“The implication of this is that you would agree that Bolt’s representation of the evidence is inaccurate – but that he is doing it to be ironic. Is that correct?
I have already answered that
5 August, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Leave Gore out of this one, just for the moment, and address the post that Tobias has written
I meantion Gore because i wanted to test Ant’s supposed conviction towards people that have been proven to be dishonest and misleading in the climate Change debate.
He proved the point that he is bias as he refuses to apply the same standards to Gore as he claims he does to Bolt.
5 August, 2008 at 1:15 pm
If you say so …
Sweet jeebus, it’s like arguing with a child …
5 August, 2008 at 1:20 pm
Dear oh dear Rad – you’ve really highlighted your blind servitude to Bolt with this line:
It is only a projection at this point so until that projection turns into FACT, then Bolt is correct to say; Bangladesh is not sinking, but growing
The reality, as Tobias quite conclusively demonstrated in the original post, is that Bolt is using a phenomenon that is clearly unrelated to climate change to attack the theory of climate change. The lack of logical consistency and integrity in this argument is quite obvious to anyone not blinded by adoration.
Raising Bolt to a position of infallability, even in the face of clear evidence to the contrary? Hmmm – I think it’s quite obvious who the ‘true believers’ are in this debate.
5 August, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Bolt’s a climate skeptic, and as such attacks the climate change theory at several unrelated points. If you’re a christianity skeptic, you might challenge the virgin birth, or Noah’s ark, or “who made God”, or the efficacy of Prayer. A believer will complain that these things are unrelated, but for the skeptic they are all related to arguing with different components of the religion.
In the case of your religion, one component is that that humans are causing the earth to warm. Another belief (which seems unrelated to you) is that a warming planet is a disaster in the making. Both are wrong. He’s entitled to attack both.
5 August, 2008 at 1:28 pm
“Small problem. Bangladesh is not sinking, but growing”
Bangladesh has always been growing. Does Bolt think this is only happening becuause he is now aware of it??
This is about what will happen with predicted sea-level rises – and Bangladesh will be very much shrinking, disasterously so in the delta region with the minimally above sea-level land there.
5 August, 2008 at 1:32 pm
In the case of your religion, one component is that that humans are causing the earth to warm. Another belief (which seems unrelated to you) is that a warming planet is a disaster in the making. Both are wrong. He’s entitled to attack both.
It’s also funny how the alarmist’s on this site like to pick and choose from bolt’s web site.
I don’t see any of them mentioning the real elephant in the climate change room and that is that the so called smoking gun in the IPCC report that the mid-troposphere was meant to warm, in fact has show no signs of warming.
But hey, you argument is best suited to dealing with the fringes when the real heart of the scientific debate is destroying the case for AGW.
http://www.lavoisier.com.au/papers/articles/DavidEvansmissingsignature.pdf
5 August, 2008 at 1:36 pm
If every you needed an example of a statement of faith…
Both are wrong.
5 August, 2008 at 1:37 pm
If every you needed an example of a statement of faith…
Both are wrong
And your evidence is?
5 August, 2008 at 1:38 pm
For Mighty Matt:
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2008/07/david_evans_and_that_missing_s.php
5 August, 2008 at 1:40 pm
(Ant) proved the point that he is bias as he refuses to apply the same standards to Gore as he claims he does to Bolt.
Utter nonsense, Rad Pipper. You go and find a single instance where I’ve praised or defended the accuracy of Al Gore’s film — once you’ve found it* I’ll allow you to accuse me of bias. Until then, I’d advise you to stop talking out of your arse, for the sake of whatever shred of dignity you may still possess.
* Hint: you won’t find one.
5 August, 2008 at 1:40 pm
And your evidence is?
Welcome to MightyMattWorld people.
5 August, 2008 at 1:43 pm
For Mighty Matt:
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2008/07/david_evans_and_that_missing_s.php
So Mighty Dean, where is the scientific evidence to show that the mid-troposphere has warmed.
All you have linked to are blog sites.
5 August, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Both are wrong
And your evidence is?
same as my evidence that angels don’t exist.
5 August, 2008 at 1:44 pm
same as my evidence that angels don’t exist.
i.e. non-existent.
5 August, 2008 at 1:45 pm
I’ll bet Matt is typing:
“So you believe in angels, Dean”…
5 August, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Utter nonsense, Rad Pipper. You go and find a single instance where I’ve praised or defended Al Gore’s film — once you’ve found it* I’ll allow you to accuse me of bias. Until then, I’d advise you to stop talking out of your arse, for the sake of whatever shred of dignity you may still possess
Ant, I never said that you had praised Gore’s film. I said that you have never been critical or applied than same supposed standards to Gore in the same way you do to Bolt. When you think Bolt has been deceptive you are quick to attack, but when Gore has been proven to be deceptive you are silent.
Nice deflection though.
5 August, 2008 at 1:47 pm
i.e. non-existent.
just to be clear: in the absence of compelling evidence, I don’t believe in either.
5 August, 2008 at 1:52 pm
Can you answer me these then DD:
1. What evidence would compell you to believe in angels?
2. What evidence would compell you to believe that action on AGW was warranted?
5 August, 2008 at 1:57 pm
BTW, the Deltoid rebuttal of Evans and the AGW signature is here:
http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2008/07/the_australians_war_on_science_16.php
The page is not displaying correctly for me but is readable.
I haven’t seen an answer to the rebuttal.
5 August, 2008 at 1:59 pm
The page is not displaying correctly for me but is readable.
I haven’t seen an answer to the rebuttal
That’s all it is Mighty Dean, an answer posted on a Blog site. Where is the scientific evidence that shows that the mid-troposphere has warmed?
5 August, 2008 at 2:01 pm
When you think Bolt has been deceptive you are quick to attack, but when Gore has been proven to be deceptive you are silent.
Rad Pipper, it appears to have escaped your notice (heavens knows how, for such a well-informed bloke), but this blog is named the Blair/Bolt Watch Project.
You do see where I’m going here, don’t you?
5 August, 2008 at 2:02 pm
And your evidence is?
Rad – are you somehow unaware that, by stating that “both are wrong”, Dave has made a definitive statement of fact that he can’t possibly know to be true?
He is demonstrating blind ‘faith’ in a non-AGW position. It is as simple and straightforward as that.
Now before you charge off down the tangental path of whether or not there are AGW proponents out there who demonstrate similar levels of faith – let me save you the trouble by noting that nobody here would disagree with that. There surely ARE believers who demonstrate the same level of blind faith in AGW as Daddy Dave does in Andrew Bolt.
The hilarious thing here is not that AGW is real or not – it’s that you, Dave and Bolt are engaging in exactly the same faith based, illogical and distortive arguments as those you seek to criticise.
In short, you are monumental hypocrites.
5 August, 2008 at 2:07 pm
There’s more on the tropospheric/stratospheric signature(s) here:
http://sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=ISPM#Errors_and_discrepancies
5 August, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Rad Pipper, it appears to have escaped your notice, but this blog is named the Blair/Bolt Watch Project.
You do see where I’m going here, don’t you?
Ant I am trying to determine your impartiality Ant. You claim that you are offended by Bolt’s supposed inaccuracies, so I was wondering if that also equated to Gore’s proven inaccuracies.
The fact that you refuse to answer with your opinion is more telling than anything. It also means that it is rather difficult for you to claim the higher moral ground if you refuse to condemn Gore for the same things you condemn Bolt for.
5 August, 2008 at 2:12 pm
What I want to know is, how do R. Pipper and D. Dave justify spending so much energy being complete and utter fucking morons?
5 August, 2008 at 2:13 pm
There’s more on the tropospheric/stratospheric signature(s) here
Dean that doens’t tell us anything about mid-troposphere warming.
5 August, 2008 at 2:14 pm
He is demonstrating blind ‘faith’ in a non-AGW position.
I guess. But if King Canute says he can hold back the tide, then I will have blind ‘faith’ in a non-Canute position.
An earlier question in this thread was would be compelling evidence for me that “we have to act?”
1) compelling demonstration of a causal link between increasing CO2 and increasing global temperature. A time-lag correlation would suit me fine.
2) compelling evidence that increasing temperature will result not in damping processes, but further increasing temperature.
3) demonstration that warm climates are worse than cold climates. (on balance the evidence seems to be the other way around)
4) significant rises in ocean levels.
That would all be compelling evidence.
5 August, 2008 at 2:15 pm
What I want to know is, how do R. Pipper and D. Dave justify spending so much energy being complete and utter fucking morons
let me translate that for everyone.
” What I want to know is, how do R. Pipper and D. Dave justify spending so much energy debating my belief system and disagreeing with me“
5 August, 2008 at 2:15 pm
“how do R. Pipper and D. Dave justify spending so much energy being complete and utter fucking morons?”
I was just born unlucky, Adam. Pity me.
5 August, 2008 at 2:19 pm
Wrong on the translation Pipper, and i do pity both of you
5 August, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Ah, I see … Gore’s inaccuracies are “proven” (presumably by Bolt and the other ideological character assassins, like Blair, to whom he links) while Bolt’s inaccuracies are “supposed”?
Is that really the best you’ve got? You’re beyond a laughing stock, Rad.
And for your information, I haven’t even seen Gore’s film, so I’m as unlikely to give my opinion of its “inaccuracies” as I am to take your, and Bolt’s, word that it’s plagued by them.
Nice bit of stereotyping, though — assuming I’ve seen and approve of it. You’ll graduate with flying colours from the Boltler Youth boot camp one day.
5 August, 2008 at 2:22 pm
This is what it says, Matt
However, one of the two satellite-based tropical tropospheric estimates (RSS) shows a trend of 0.18°C per decade. [AR4 Fig. 3.18] Moreover, as acknowledged in the ISPM, models predict amplified warming in the tropical upper troposphere, not the tropical troposphere as a whole. [ISPM 2.1c, AR4 10.3.4] There are no estimates for temperature trends in the upper troposphere in the satellite-based data sets found in AR4.
Moreover, models predict that amplified warming in the upper tropical troposphere would accompany long-term warming, no matter whether the forcing is anthropogenic (greenhouse gases) or natural (solar). [9] As noted in the section below, it is the combination of tropospheric warming and stratospheric cooling that most clearly distinguishes greenhouse gas induced warming from that resulting from natural external forcings.
5 August, 2008 at 2:23 pm
I suppose you will want a reason why you are wrong on your translation, not that it will make any difference.
I don’t have a problem with anyone questioning my belief system, in fact i do it all the time, that’s the only way we can grow.
The problem is, you won’t or can’t question your own belief systems, and that is why you are wasting your energy which could be put to much better use.
Consider this please.
5 August, 2008 at 2:24 pm
“The fact that you refuse to answer with your opinion is more telling than anything. It also means that it is rather difficult for you to claim the higher moral ground if you refuse to condemn Gore for the same things you condemn Bolt for.”
STOP! JUST STOP IT RAD. for fucks sake!
watching your pathetic contortions-as-deflections is as excruciating as it was watching tim blair get mauled last week for doing the same dickhead “but i said”, “but i meant”, “but you said”, “no i didn’t” crap.
you are embarassing yourself and not helping your credibility one inch. try saying this instead: “i do not know with 100% certainty that agw is not happening, but recognise that there is a substantial evidence base that shows i need to give the planet the benefit of my doubt.”
5 August, 2008 at 2:24 pm
And here’s the evidence of the statospheric cooling:
http://www.atmosphere.mpg.de/enid/20c.html
5 August, 2008 at 2:29 pm
I guess. But if King Canute says he can hold back the tide, then I will have blind ‘faith’ in a non-Canute position.
So you now wish to pretend that the AGW position is of equivalent scientific merit to someone claiming an ability to prevent the tides?
Please keep going Dave. The more you write, the more you expose the bizarrely hypocritical approach you are applying to this issue.
5 August, 2008 at 2:31 pm
But dean it is the mid-tropisphere that is the smoking gun.
As stated in the link I have provided
The theoretical combined signature expected by the IPCC contains a prominent and
distinct hotpot over the tropics at 8 – 12 kms. This hotspot is the signature feature of an
increase in greenhouse warming.
The observed signature at 8 – 12 kThe observed signature at 8 – 12 km up over the tropics does not contain a hotspot, not even a little one.
Therefore:
1. The IPCC theoretical signature is wrong. So the IPCC models are significantly
wrong.
2. The signature of increased greenhouse warming is missing. So the global
warming from 1979 to 1999 was not due predominately to increased
greenhouse warming, and was therefore not due to carbon emissions
What you have linked to refers to the upper tropical troposphere;
Moreover, models predict that amplified warming in the upper tropical troposphere would accompany long-term warming, no matter whether the forcing is anthropogenic (greenhouse gases) or natural (solar)
5 August, 2008 at 2:47 pm
I wonder if Bolt was on the Exxon ([url=http://uk.reuters.com/article/environmentNews/idUKN2328446120080523]again cuts funds for climate change skeptics[/url]) payroll
5 August, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Matt, the signature is actually mid-latitude warming of the troposphere and cooling of the statosphere.
More evidence for that:
http://www.mng.org.uk/gh/threat/threat6.htm
5 August, 2008 at 2:51 pm
So you now wish to pretend that the AGW position is of equivalent scientific merit to someone claiming an ability to prevent the tides?
Yes. It is literally the position of someone claiming to be able to prevent the oceans from rising.
5 August, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Apologies – trying to find a definitive statement of the IPCC’s AGW signature…
5 August, 2008 at 3:00 pm
Matt, the signature is actually mid-latitude warming of the troposphere and cooling of the statosphere
LOL ….. Dean you are confusing “mid-latitude” with “mid-troposphere”.
They are two completely different things.
Once again you have linked to an article which does not relate to the IPCC’s smoking gun of warming in the mid-troposphere.
As noted earlier, warming in the upper troposphere can be attributed to either causes from anthropogenic (greenhouse gases) or natural (solar). It is the mid-troposphere where warming can only be attributed to anthropogenic (greenhouse gases).
What this means is that for anthropogenic (greenhouse gases) to be the cause warming has to occur in both the mid-troposphere and upper troposphere.
If warming only occurs in the upper troposphere then it rules out anthropogenic (greenhouse gases) and suggests that it is caused by natural (solar).
No-one is disputing warming in the troposphere, it is what happens in the mid-troposphere that is the smoking gun, which the IPCC’s own report determined.
5 August, 2008 at 3:17 pm
good luck with that DeanL, I won’t hold my breath.
5 August, 2008 at 3:25 pm
Yes. It is literally the position of someone claiming to be able to prevent the oceans from rising.
Dave – I think it’s fairly obvious that you’re being forced to completely distort the reality of this issue in order to defend your illogical dismissal of a very large body of scientific evidence and theory.
Perhaps its time you stopped and thought about what this says about the integrity of the argument you’re peddling.
I won’t, however, be holding my breath either.
5 August, 2008 at 3:38 pm
dave and Rad have become quite the contortionists over the course of the day. I’ve just read my way through the comments while I was at a meeting for most of the day and still haven’t seen any answer to the questions I asked earlier, so I’m glad others have taken up all of the other flawed arguments they have put forward in the meanwhile.
5 August, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Only a wilfully ignorant person could avoid all the evidence that humans are damaging the planet and it’s ability to support life, and it seems obvious that you aren’t going to change Pipper and Dave, I therefore suspect that they are being paid to deliberately troll and try to muddy the waters.
Industrial pollution is only caused by humans, to deny this damages landbases and ecosystems is stupid in the extreme.
If that is the case, they are truly disgusting people with no respect for life, whose only motivation is money and power.
If not, as thinking human beings they should look beyond their ignorance and assess the situation the world is currently in.
5 August, 2008 at 3:51 pm
Industrial pollution is only caused by humans, to deny this damages landbases and ecosystems is stupid in the extreme.
I agree! and yes, I hate industrial pollution too. I hate erosion. I hate rivers being poisoned. I hate rare species of fish being destroyed. I hate sonar that causes whales to disorient and beach themselves. I hate Union Carbide. I hate smog. I hate seeing birds tangled in fishing wire.
…but I don’t hate carbon dioxide. Humans damage the environment in many ways, but CO2 output isn’t one of them (in my opinion).
5 August, 2008 at 4:04 pm
The historical basis of the argument is covered by Realclimate at:
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/12/tropical-troposphere-trends/
As Evans correctly says, with CO2 forcing, the models do indeed produce/expect a warming throughout the troposphere and enhanced at around 10km (upper troposphere!) over the tropics.
But as is pointed out at Realclimate and at Deltoid – this is also the signature for warming with a (theoretical and modelled) increase in solar radiation. The figures for GISS model output at Realclimate demonstrate this for both a 2% solar forcing and a doubling of CO2. For CO2 forcing, it’s only the stratospheric cooling that is the true and distinctive signature. As pointed out in the above links, this stratospheric cooling signature has indeed been demonstrated.
The contention actually appears to lie with Evans’, (via Douglass, Pearson and Singer and Christy) in the use of the radiosonde data (real measurements of tropospheric temperature – which have “…additional uncertainty due to adjustments to correct for various biases…”) that show a *different* tropospheric warming signature to the models.
This is complex but, it turns out the radiosonde data does indeed show the warming signature – the differences with the models are actually at the lower levels of the troposphere and not where the largest warming is expected (have a look at the last figure).
The conclusion: “…it is a demonstration that there is no clear model-data discrepancy in tropical tropospheric trends once you take the systematic uncertainties in data and models seriously.”
I suspect Evans is relying on the older paper by Douglass, Pearson and Singer which was debunked…or for Matt: falsified.
5 August, 2008 at 4:27 pm
As Evans correctly says, with CO2 forcing, the models do indeed produce/expect a warming throughout the troposphere and enhanced at around 10km (upper troposphere!) over the tropics.
Hey dude, even I can tell that you have not got the point. Rad has correctly pointed out that the IPCC report does state that the mid troposphere is the key warming indicator for CO2 induced global warming. Not the upper troposhere.
5 August, 2008 at 4:45 pm
Ron,
That is irrelevant because the Realclimate reference deals with the whole troposphere.
There is no argument as to where the warming is (should be/is expected to be) occurring.
The height of the troposphere varies markedly from pole to tropics and 10km is certainly mid-troposphere in the tropics, so I have no argument.
The modellers tend to use units of pressure as the vertical coodinate.
5 August, 2008 at 5:12 pm
Humans damage the environment in many ways, but CO2 output isn’t one of them (in my opinion).
I’m amazed. Dave is finally retreating from his unsubstantiated and faith based statements of fact, and correctly identifying them instead as personal opinion.
Progress!!
Now if we could just convince him that his opinion, as a layperson with zero scientific knowledge or expertise, is likely to be worth less than a pinch of shit we might get even further. (Again – to head off the obvious retort – I should point out that my opinion on the impact of excess CO2 in the atmosphere is similarly worthless – which is why I resist the arrogant urge to make proclamations about whether AGW is real or not.)
5 August, 2008 at 6:33 pm
Rad and Ronny are going to get a fright when they get stuck into the following.
http://www.scottchurchdirect.com/docs/global-warming-troposphere120.pdf
Everybody else step back. This stuff is amazing but not for the faint hearted.
5 August, 2008 at 7:12 pm
Does any one know the half-life of ignorance?
Just wondering when Rad and dave will rejoin the reality-based community.
5 August, 2008 at 9:17 pm
Does any one know the half-life of ignorance?
The half-life of wilful ignorance is eternity.
6 August, 2008 at 9:28 am
I suspect Evans is relying on the older paper by Douglass, Pearson and Singer which was debunked…or for Matt: falsified
No, Evens is relying on the IPCC’s latest report.
That is what Evans is stating.
The theoretical signatures come from the latest big report from the IPCC, which is the
most authoritative document for those who believe carbon emissions caused global
warming. The IPCC Assessment Report 4 (AR4), 2007, Chapter 9. Figure 9.1, in
Section 9.2.2.1, page 675, shows six greenhouse signature diagrams.
http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/Report/AR4WG1_Print_Ch09.pdf .
In each diagram the horizontal axis is the latitude, from the north pole (90 degrees
north) through the equator to the south pole (90 degrees south). The vertical axis
shows the height in the atmosphere, marked on left hand side shown as 0 – 30 km (and
on the right hand side as the corresponding air pressures in hPa). The coloured regions
on each diagram shows where the temperature changes occur for each possible cause
(red +1°C, yellow +0.5°C, green −0.5°C, blue −1°C per century).
He concludes;
The theoretical combined signature expected by the IPCC contains a prominent and
distinct hotpot over the tropics at 8 – 12 kms. This hotspot is the signature feature of an
increase in greenhouse warming.
The observed signature at 8 – 12 km up over the tropics does not contain a hotspot, not
even a little one.
Therefore:
1. The IPCC theoretical signature is wrong. So the IPCC models are significantly
wrong.
2. The signature of increased greenhouse warming is missing. So the global
warming from 1979 to 1999 was not due predominately to increased
greenhouse warming, and was therefore not due to carbon emissions.
Evans also goes on to highlight other inconsistencies within the IPCC report. The IPCC omitted signature data from other prime suspects for global warming which are clouds/cosmic rays and the sun’s magnetic field.
Keep in mind that it is the IPCC reports that Governments and alarmist always trumpet.
So what this highlights is that there are major errors in the IPCC’s modelling for AGW. The same modelling which governments are using for policy making.
6 August, 2008 at 9:54 am
So in the link you provided dean, Climate scientists admit that there are many gaps in their understanding of how the surface and troposphere interact with each other as well as how they are forced (climate change) by many factors driving climate change.
On Page 3, in the second paragraph of the Introduction;
http://www.scottchurchdirect.com/docs/global-warming-troposphere120.pdf
Climate scientists point to the many gaps in our understanding of how the surface and
troposphere interact with each other as well as how they are forced by the many factors driving
climate change. They also point to the many gaps and uncertainties in our data regarding the historic
evolution of troposphere and stratosphere temperatures
This comes back to what I have said all along that humanities understanding of climate and weather is very limited which leaves open the real possibility that with falsification, the concept of AGW is vulnerable to being falsified by future climate science.
In other words, the debate on climate change is far from over and the supposed scientific consensus on AGW will not last.
This also leaves major margins or error in any climate computer modelling of future climate change.
6 August, 2008 at 10:42 am
I suspect Evans is relying on the older paper by Douglass, Pearson and Singer which was debunked…or for Matt: falsified
No, Evens is relying on the IPCC’s latest report.
In actual fact, I was wrong about my suspicion – Evans’ source is the referenced US Climate Change Science (CCS) Report which does not rely on or base it’s findings on Douglass, Pearson and Singer.
I’ve downloaded and had a look at the report and in particular, the section containing the figures that Evans is referring to – Chapter 5, page 116.
This section compares the zonal (latitudinal) temperature trend through the troposphere of 4 US models with the HadAT2 radiosonde temperature data record (1979 to 1999).
The CCS report says the following in relation to these figures:
The pattern of temperature change estimated from HadAT2 radiosonde data is broadly similar, although the transition height between stratospheric cooling and tropospheric warming is noticeably lower than in the model simulations (Figure 5.7E).
Another noticeable difference is that the HadAT2
data show a relative lack of warming in the tropical troposphere,66 where all four models
simulate maximum warming. This particular
aspect of the observed temperature-change
pattern is very sensitive to data adjustments (Sherwood et al., 2005; Randel and Wu, 2006).
Tropospheric warming in the observations is
most obvious in the NH extra-tropics, where
our confidence in the reliability of radiosonde
records is greatest. Note that some of the details of the model fingerprint pattern are quite different. For example, GFDL’s cooling maximum immediately above the tropical tropopause is not evident in any of the other models. Its maximum warming in theupper tropical troposphere is noticeably large than in CCSM3.0, PCM, or GISS-EH. While CCSM and GFDL CM2.1 have pronounced hemispheric asymmetry in their stratospheric
The first thing I note is that Evans has not included the temperature scale at the base of the figure. This makes it hard to compare the temperatures associated with the IPCC model figure Evans provides for comparison, which also doesn’t have a tempature scale and uses different colours.
Going back to the original figures in the CCS report, you can see, as pointed out in the text, that only 1 of the models actually has the very strong warming signature (0.4 to 0.5 c/decade) at around 300 hPa. The other 3 models all show a much more benign trend at and around the 300 hPa level which is actually quite consistent with the radiosonde data. Guess which model Evans chose to use?
What this report actually says is that the warming signature in the troposphere is there but, in the radiosonde data (only) it isn’t as marked as the models suggest/predict.
A key point is that the radisonde data does show the statospheric cooling which is also the CO2 warming signature. Evans ignores this.
So to say the signature is missing is untrue. To say it’s not as marked as what the models would indicate is reasonable. However this is based on only the one data set – from radiosondes, which are notoriously subject to various biases, errors, discontinuities and quality issues. Hence the Realclimate error analysis showing that, when taking into account the uncertainties with the radiosonde measurements, they don’t contradict the models at all.
6 August, 2008 at 10:53 am
Hence the Realclimate error analysis showing that, when taking into account the uncertainties with the radiosonde measurements, they don’t contradict the models at all
This still brings into question the validity of the future climate forecasting from the computer models that the IPCC uses.
Especially when you take into account the admission from climate scientists;
Climate scientists point to the many gaps in our understanding of how the surface and
troposphere interact with each other as well as how they are forced by the many factors driving
climate change. They also point to the many gaps and uncertainties in our data regarding the historic
evolution of troposphere and stratosphere temperatures
It then goes onto say;
But others who are more confident of what
is already known claim that this discrepancy is a show-stopper for global warming, and proof that
global warming mitigation policies are unneeded and wasteful.
6 August, 2008 at 11:13 am
In addition to my last post, the same report that you linked to Dean also makes this amazing admission;
This perceived discrepancy between surface and troposphere temperature trends is one of the last and most significant roadblocks to a general recognition of the reality of global warming. It must be explained, one way or another, before
a clear picture of the nature and extent of anthropogenic climate change can be achieved.
http://www.scottchurchdirect.com/docs/global-warming-troposphere120.pdf
6 August, 2008 at 11:25 am
Rad, I think you better contact the IPCC about your findings, immediately. I think there has to be a complete global rethink on combating climate change.
6 August, 2008 at 11:28 am
Rad, I think you better contact the IPCC about your findings, immediately. I think there has to be a complete global rethink on combating climate change
That would be pointless as all this information has proven that the IPCC is more about politics than science.
I would think that they would already know what the Climate Science community thinks and they have choosen to ignore them for their own personal reasons.
6 August, 2008 at 11:28 am
Sadly Matt, I think it’s quite a scary admission.
I would actually rather there was a lot of doubt about AGW and that it was eventually proven to be a non-issue. The fact that we’re only one step away and that the discrepancy is merely a “perceived” one doesn’t provide much scope for optimism.
Despite the fact that you tell yourself that most scientists want AGW to be a reality, it’s not really the case.
6 August, 2008 at 11:31 am
I would think that they would already know what the Climate Science community thinks and they have choosen to ignore them for their own personal reasons.
Matt flips between his Applied Physicist and Conspiracy Theroists peronalities with ease, doesn’t he?
6 August, 2008 at 11:39 am
I would actually rather there was a lot of doubt about AGW and that it was eventually proven to be a non-issue. The fact that we’re only one step away and that the discrepancy is merely a “perceived” one doesn’t provide much scope for optimism
It’s not a small step Dean . I would have thought that how the surface and troposphere interact with each other as well as how they are forced by the many factors driving climate change would be one of the biggest steps.
Also there is the obvious reality that the earths climate is subject to the Chaos theory, which means that it is not an easy thing to discover. Scientific history has shown that as one question is answered, several more questions are created. It would be naive to think that Climate scientists are on the cusp of discovering all the factors and science of climate change. I suspect that we are only at the beginning.
Also, there is still the very large elephant in the room for the IPCC and world governments. With a lack of understanding of what drives climate change in between the surface and the troposphere, the chances of the IPCC computer modelling of future climate change being wrong is very large.
Also it is wrong for people to say that because we have a scientific consensus today on climate change, with still uncertainty in the science, it is wrong to say that the debate is over.
6 August, 2008 at 11:51 am
earths climate is subject to the Chaos theory,
Still trying to throw this in. I suspect you’re actually incapable of learning anything anymore, Matt. It’s why all your silly posturings and rantings about “Krudd” came to nothing and you’ve had to change your alias.
Do you deny that you used to post as Mighty Matt?
6 August, 2008 at 11:52 am
Gaps in knowledge is true of pretty much every scientific discipline.
But of course for the delusionists like Rad/matt, their acknowledgement of this is completely arbitrary based on what is convenient at any given moment. Hence, he champions Evans’ interpretetation of the data on the troposphere as undermining the IPCC conclusions, then in the face of DeanL’s reply, appeals to the complexity of the issue and the incomplete state of knowledge as the problem.
Just the usual contortions from the climate creationsts.
6 August, 2008 at 12:01 pm
Do you deny that you used to post as Mighty Matt?
You can call me what ever you like mighty Dean, but I think that you would be surprised by who I am. Especially given that you like to call me Mighty Matt. I suspect that Matt is short for Mathew?
earths climate is subject to the Chaos theory,
Still trying to throw this in
When talking about the science of Climate and Weather, you cannot dismiss the fact that it is a system that is governed by the chaos theory.
6 August, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Hence, he champions Evans’ interpretetation of the data on the troposphere as undermining the IPCC conclusions, then in the face of DeanL’s reply, appeals to the complexity of the issue and the incomplete state of knowledge as the problem.
Just the usual contortions from the climate creationsts
And the fact that Climate Scientists admit that they don’t understand how the surface and troposphere interact with each other as well as how they are forced by the many factors driving climate change.
I think that it is you Michael who is delusional of this one important fact.
6 August, 2008 at 12:06 pm
It’s a pretty simple question RadP: have you previously posted as Mighty Matt anywhere?
6 August, 2008 at 12:09 pm
“I would think that they would already know what the Climate Science community thinks and they have choosen to ignore them for their own personal reasons.”
lol!! and of course hiv researchers secretly want no cure found. do you realise what you’ve just said?
6 August, 2008 at 12:10 pm
It’s a pretty simple question RadP: have you previously posted as Mighty Matt anywhere?
No Dean. My surname is Matthews though.
6 August, 2008 at 12:14 pm
lol!! and of course hiv researchers secretly want no cure found. do you realise what you’ve just said?
Stop being an idiot confessions.
6 August, 2008 at 12:16 pm
Fair enough. If this is the truth, I won’t refer to you as Mighty Matt again. The similarities in deflective and side-stepping styles and pig-headed ignorance is uncanny though.
6 August, 2008 at 12:18 pm
Matt flips between his Applied Physicist and Conspiracy Theroists peronalities with ease, doesn’t he?
It’s incredibly disappointing to observe. Just when I start to think that there’s hope for Rad – when he starts to discuss the issues rationally and sensibly – he loses it and makes a fundamentally delusional statement like the one above.
Apparently he’s simply inverted reality to suit his own beliefs – he’s now claiming that the ‘Climate science community’ disagrees with AGW despite clear consensus in the other direction. It’s desperate and delusional.
There is no doubt that the AGW debate has a ways to go before absolute certainty can be claimed (by either side) – therefore those who make utterly false declarations that misrepresent the science we do have, like Rad has done above and like Bolt does on a daily basis, are proving themselves to be motivated by political agenda rather than genuine enquiry.
In a sense it’s absolutely hilarious to watch these die-hard ideologues flail about whilst angrily accusing others of being die-hard ideologues.
6 August, 2008 at 12:24 pm
It’s incredibly disappointing to observe. Just when I start to think that there’s hope for Rad – when he starts to discuss the issues rationally and sensibly – he loses it and makes a fundamentally delusional statement like the one above
Fair suck of the sauce bottle.
I was responding to this from John;
Rad, I think you better contact the IPCC about your findings, immediately. I think there has to be a complete global rethink on combating climate change
My response was given to a purely stupid question.
6 August, 2008 at 12:37 pm
Apparently he’s simply inverted reality to suit his own beliefs – he’s now claiming that the ‘Climate science community’ disagrees with AGW despite clear consensus in the other direction
MRock, I never said that. I said that the Climate science community understand and accept the uncertainties in climate modelling due to the lack of knowledge in key areas of climate research and science.
Here is what I did say;
In addition to my last post, the same report that you linked to Dean also makes this amazing admission;
“This perceived discrepancy between surface and troposphere temperature trends is one of the last and most significant roadblocks to a general recognition of the reality of global warming. It must be explained, one way or another, before
a clear picture of the nature and extent of anthropogenic climate change can be achieved. ”
6 August, 2008 at 12:46 pm
Change the emphasis and you get:
“This perceived discrepancy between surface and troposphere temperature trends is one of the last and most significant roadblocks to a general recognition of the reality of global warming. It must be explained, one way or another, before
a clear picture of the nature and extent of anthropogenic climate change can be achieved
6 August, 2008 at 12:47 pm
gotta love html formatting…
6 August, 2008 at 12:50 pm
BTW if you’re interested in who Evans is and what his climate experience might bring to the debate, go to:
http://www.desmogblog.com/who-is-rocket-scientist-david-evans
6 August, 2008 at 1:04 pm
“And the fact that Climate Scientists admit that they don’t understand how the surface and troposphere interact with each other as well as how they are forced by the many factors driving climate change. – Rad
Yet you cite Evans as a rebuttal of the IPCC.
Either the knowledge base is too sketchy to know anything, or Evans has used the available data to disprove the troposphere predictions.
It can’t be both.
6 August, 2008 at 1:07 pm
Yet you cite Evans as a rebuttal of the IPCC.
Either the knowledge base is too sketchy to know anything, or Evans has used the available data to disprove the troposphere predictions.
It can’t be both
Michael, read what has been written. Your assessment does not make sense.
6 August, 2008 at 1:17 pm
It does make sense.
6 August, 2008 at 1:18 pm
MRock, I never said that. I said that the Climate science community understand and accept the uncertainties in climate modelling due to the lack of knowledge in key areas of climate research and science.
Actually, Rad, you quite clearly did say that the climate science community disagrees with AGW:
I would think that they would already know what the Climate Science community thinks and they have choosen to ignore them for their own personal reasons.
You are clearly implying that the IPCC report is deliberately ignoring the ‘Climate science community’ for political reasons. This is a ridiculous conspiracy theory that is completely contradicted by reality.
6 August, 2008 at 1:22 pm
“Apparently he’s simply inverted reality to suit his own beliefs – he’s now claiming that the ‘Climate science community’ disagrees with AGW despite clear consensus in the other direction. It’s desperate and delusional.”
exactly.
admit it rad, bolt misrepresents agw data. whether he does this deliberately or whether he doesn’t understand is still unknown. but he misrepresents the data in ways that always seem to coincide with his own idealogical perspective. it is desperate on his part. and delusional on the part of his fan club.
6 August, 2008 at 1:38 pm
Actually, Rad, you quite clearly did say that the climate science community disagrees with AGW:
I would think that they would already know what the Climate Science community thinks and they have choosen to ignore them for their own personal reasons
No Mrock, that is not correct. You need to read the post that I wrote that prompted John to write what he did;
Here’s what was said;
Rad Pipper
6 August, 2008 at 11:13 am
In addition to my last post, the same report that you linked to Dean also makes this amazing admission;
“This perceived discrepancy between surface and troposphere temperature trends is one of the last and most significant roadblocks to a general recognition of the reality of global warming. It must be explained, one way or another, before
a clear picture of the nature and extent of anthropogenic climate change can be achieved. ”
John51
6 August, 2008 at 11:25 am
Rad, I think you better contact the IPCC about your findings, immediately. I think there has to be a complete global rethink on combating climate change
Rad Pipper
6 August, 2008 at 11:28 am
“Rad, I think you better contact the IPCC about your findings, immediately. I think there has to be a complete global rethink on combating climate change ”
That would be pointless as all this information has proven that the IPCC is more about politics than science.
I would think that they would already know what the Climate Science community thinks and they have choosen to ignore them for their own personal reasons
So by reading the history of the posts, it shows that your assumptions are wrong Mrock.
6 August, 2008 at 1:43 pm
“Michael, read what has been written. Your assessment does not make sense.” – Rad
It’s a reasonable summary of your position, and, sadly, you’re right that it doesn’t make any sense.
And that’s just looking at the logic of your ramblings. The content is another matter, which, relying on Evans’s opinion, is complete and utter bollocks.
6 August, 2008 at 1:45 pm
If I was the type to add LOLs to posts, I’d add a few in response to that one.
Perhaps he’s RadP = SonOfMightyMatt?
6 August, 2008 at 2:18 pm
Rad – Dean has already explained to you exactly how you’re misreading the report that speaks of a ‘perceived’ discrepancy.
Even in the absence of this it is clear that you’re once again misrepresenting the views of the climate science community when you state that they have been deliberately ignored by the IPCC report. They haven’t – the majority of the climate science community clearly supports the conclusions of the IPCC report.
It may suprise you to learn that I consider myself an AGW sceptic, inasmuch as I do not believe the science is settled yet, however there is zero doubt in my mind that the contributions of people such as Bolt and yourself to this debate are aimed entirely at pushing a pre-concieved agenda to the exclusion of all evidence to the contrary.
Once again I must point out how amusing it is to watch you project your own obvious bias and selective use of information on to others.
6 August, 2008 at 4:41 pm
I think it’s cute how much influence Bolt and Blair have on your life Jeremy. Although, it may be seen as a little disturbing as well.
6 August, 2008 at 5:03 pm
So why are you here, Obsessed?
6 August, 2008 at 5:21 pm
http://www.scottchurchdirect.com/docs/global-warming-troposphere120.pdf
Rad needs to read more of the document than just the introduction. Try to get to page 53 to 54 Rad. Read the recomendations! If got a physics background you can handle this stuff son!
6 August, 2008 at 7:06 pm
Mike Carleton describes Andrew Bolt as the Melbourne “village idiot” when I asked Bolta why Carleton had such a dislike of him, before I was banned on his blog,Bolta said Carleton did not like him, due to him, ejecting Mike from a party,because he was drunk.
6 August, 2008 at 7:29 pm
If I was the type to add LOLs to posts, I’d add a few in response to that one.
No need. Confessions does that enough for everyone. Especially when he amuses himself.
lol.
I mean, sorry:
LOL.
(lol)
6 August, 2008 at 7:34 pm
For a bit of a laugh, Paul Keating tonight, 7-30 ABC report.
6 August, 2008 at 7:49 pm
Milkman, won’t you leave an extra pint?
6 August, 2008 at 7:55 pm
“I think it’s cute how much influence Bolt and Blair have on your life Jeremy. Although, it may be seen as a little disturbing as well.”
Obsessed…you do realise that this post was not written by Jeremy, nor has he commented on it, right?
7 August, 2008 at 3:55 am
Bolt’s sheep are getting into a flap at the moment about what the great man himself ( Paul Keating )said about Costello yesterday. I wouldn’t have put it the way ol’ Paul put put it but it is true about Costello.
Bolta is especially nearly busting a valve, speaking like that about his hero.
7 August, 2008 at 9:43 am
Even in the absence of this it is clear that you’re once again misrepresenting the views of the climate science community when you state that they have been deliberately ignored by the IPCC report.
I’m not the only one who believes that the IPCC is more about politics than science. Rodger Cohen is a Physicist who is appalled by the IPCC;
I retired four years ago, and at the time of my retirement I was well convinced, as were most technically trained people, that the IPCC’s case for Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) is very tight. However, upon taking the time to get into the details of the science, I was appalled at how flimsy the case really is. I was also appalled at the behavior of many of those who helped produce the IPCC reports and by many of those who promote it. In particular I am referring to the arrogance; the activities aimed at shutting down debate; the outright fabrications; the mindless defense of bogus science, and the politicization of the IPCC process and the science process itself.
http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/08/06/aps-fellow-supports-moncktons-position/#more-2118
7 August, 2008 at 9:52 am
Just in case you were wondering, this is what Rodger says about his experience in Climate science;
I have been involved in climate change for nearly 30 years. In 1980, a few of us in the research organization of a large multinational energy corporation realized that the climate issue was likely to affect our future business environment. We subsequently started the only industrial research activity in the basic science of climate change.
This is what he states about AGW and the IPCC’s predictions;
At this point there is little doubt that the IPCC position is seriously flawed in its central position that humanity is responsible for most of the observed warming of the last third of the 20th century, and in its projections for effects in the 21st century.
7 August, 2008 at 9:58 am
RadP, you’re a laugh a minute. Again with the emphasis. What about this:
I have been involved in climate change for nearly 30 years. In 1980, a few of us in the research organization of a large multinational energy corporation realized that the climate issue was likely to affect our future business environment. We subsequently started the only industrial research activity in the basic science of climate change.
7 August, 2008 at 10:00 am
Dean, He also states this;
I retired four years ago, and at the time of my retirement I was well convinced, as were most technically trained people, that the IPCC’s case for Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) is very tight.
7 August, 2008 at 10:02 am
And this
We subsequently started the only industrial research activity in the basic science of climate change. The move was justified by the fact that the best way to really understand a complex technical issue is to actually work in the area, interacting with other scientists. I have supervised climate scientists working in the area of climate change and have followed the area closely. Over the years our researchers have served as authors of key IPCC report chapters. I would like to share some perspectives with you
7 August, 2008 at 10:05 am
So what’s your point?
He also points out that this is a risk management issue:
Having said all this, it does not mean that there is no threat or that we should not debate some kind of action to control atmospheric CO2. It does mean that the case for immediate draconian measures that will have the effect or restricting world economic growth is poor. It does mean that the climate is unpredictable, even with modern tools, and this implies that continuing to load the atmosphere poses imponderable risks to terrestrial life. I believe that the way to a solution lies with new technology for both energy supply and for directly controlling net emissions. In this regard the role of governments is not to enact restrictive economic measures via market interventions, or to choose the winners in a technology race. Its proper role is to encourage the development and deployment of new technology through direct funding of R&D and through tax incentives for industries that research, develop, and deploy such technology
Sounds like a sensible bloke but one who can’t resist having a bob each way.
7 August, 2008 at 10:08 am
So what’s your point?
My point is that he is a scientist that has been working for 30 years in climate science and he states that the IPCC position on Climate change is seriously flawed.
At this point there is little doubt that the IPCC position is seriously flawed in its central position that humanity is responsible for most of the observed warming of the last third of the 20th century, and in its projections for effects in the 21st century.
7 August, 2008 at 10:12 am
he also confirms what I said earlier that the IPCC is more about politics thatn science;
and the politicization of the IPCC process and the science process itself
7 August, 2008 at 10:12 am
Well, how do you reconcile these two statements from you and him:
the IPCC position on Climate change is seriously flawed.
and
at the time of my retirement I was well convinced, as were most technically trained people, that the IPCC’s case for Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) is very tight
7 August, 2008 at 10:17 am
Dean, do I have to explain everything to you?!
Oh well, here goes….
Since his retirement he has had more time to really studied the science of climate change and he has changed his opinion on AGW.
However, upon taking the time to get into the details of the science, I was appalled at how flimsy the case really is.
7 August, 2008 at 10:19 am
So, he was convince the IPCC process and position was ok whilst he was there. But, since he’s retired, it’s fallen apart? I read the reasons he gives. But there’s nothing new there and nothing that hasn’t been refuted.
7 August, 2008 at 10:43 am
Something smells fishy (as usual).
Rads new friend Rodger/Roger, works for 30 year sin climate science leading him to accept the scientific basis for AGW, but on retiring decides it’s all wrong as according to Rad, “Since his retirement he has had more time to really studied the science “. He must have spent his working life sharpening the pencils.
Having done a quick google I can only find a Roger W. Cohen who worked in the feild of super-conductors.
Most tellingly, Cohen repeats the standard delusionist trope that “there has been no warming since 1997″. sound of alarm bells ringing*
7 August, 2008 at 10:43 am
So, he was convince the IPCC process and position was ok whilst he was there. But, since he’s retired, it’s fallen apart? I read the reasons he gives. But there’s nothing new there and nothing that hasn’t been refuted
It is a sign that the falsification process of AGW is beginning which will mean that the current scientific consensus will shift away from AGW.
As I have stated earlier, when there is a large amount of the science unexplained, the probability is high that the current theory will be falsified as the science is examined and new discoveries are made.
This is why it is rather damning of the IPCC that he states this;
In particular I am referring to the arrogance; the activities aimed at shutting down debate; the outright fabrications; the mindless defense of bogus science, and the politicization of the IPCC process and the science process itself.
The debate is NEVER over.
7 August, 2008 at 10:48 am
Update:
“Cohen, who has a doctorate in physics and who retired from Exxon Mobil as manager of strategic planning, has been in the thick of exchanges on the Herald’s op-ed pages since he wrote an opinion piece Dec. 23 saying global-warming concerns are overblown.” – Durango Herald, Jan 8, 2008.
So this is Rads guy “who has worked for 30 years in climate science”.
I guees it’s true in the way that it’s true that scientists who worked for Phillip Morris worked for 30 years in cancer science.
Rad has just totally busted by bull-shit detector.
7 August, 2008 at 10:52 am
Michael, you forgot to mention this;
Over the years our researchers have served as authors of key IPCC report chapters.
So your smears will not work.
7 August, 2008 at 10:54 am
And this Michael….
I have supervised climate scientists working in the area of climate change and have followed the area closely
7 August, 2008 at 11:03 am
F**k sake Mighty Matt…
You have to be on the neocon troll payroll to be able to keep up with this unrelenting rubbish.
You weren’t recently sacked by Ted were you?
7 August, 2008 at 11:06 am
Hate to bust your bubble Rad, but working for an organisation who has researchers in the area of climate does not make you a climate researcher yourself. And “supervising” does not either, especially if, as seems likely, this a managerial kind of supervision rather a scientific one.
Manager of Strategic Directions at Exxon……you’re a real piece of work Rad.
7 August, 2008 at 11:13 am
Even better,
At the time that Cohen is writing his articles, his former employer, Exxon (via it’s fully funded thinktank -AEI), is offering scientists $10,000 to write articles critical of the IPCC findings.
Just sayin………
7 August, 2008 at 11:19 am
Michael you are the piece of work….
You keep forgetting to mention this;
Over the years our researchers have served as authors of key IPCC report chapters
7 August, 2008 at 11:28 am
At the time that Cohen is writing his articles, his former employer, Exxon (via it’s fully funded thinktank -AEI), is offering scientists $10,000 to write articles critical of the IPCC findings.
Micheal, please provide the evidence that Exxon are doing this.
7 August, 2008 at 11:45 am
“Over the years our researchers have served as authors of key IPCC report chapters…”
But no claim it was Cohen?
So the claim that he is involved in “climate science”, and the what is obviously meant to be inferred, which is he’s a climate scientist, is just a big fat porky?
It’s got the language of crude sophistry all over it – “involved for 30 years in climate change” – yeah, by working for Exxon and producing it!
And the Exxon funded AEI cash prizes….
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/feb/02/frontpagenews.climatechange
7 August, 2008 at 11:53 am
“Over the years our researchers have served as authors of key IPCC report chapters…”
But no claim it was Cohen?
So are you also saying that because these reaserchers worked with Exxon that the IPCC report is tarnished?
Smear away against the IPCC report Michael. Some of the Authors were connected to “BIG OIL”.
By the way, Cohen makes it clear that when he worked for Exxon with Climate Science he was a believer in the science of AGW.
at the time of my retirement I was well convinced, as were most technically trained people, that the IPCC’s case for Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) is very tight
So his opinion changed AFTER he retired, so his climate change scepticism is NOT connected to his previous employement.
7 August, 2008 at 12:00 pm
Michael, you are falling into all the oh so predictable Climate change evangelist conspiracy theories about “EVIL BIG OIL”.
7 August, 2008 at 12:02 pm
…AFTER he retired…
$10,000 mysteriously went his way.
Perhaps Matt?
7 August, 2008 at 12:24 pm
“Micheal, please provide the evidence that Exxon are doing this.”
“And the Exxon funded AEI cash prizes….
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/feb/02/frontpagenews.climatechange”
Ouch!
7 August, 2008 at 12:35 pm
At the time that Cohen is writing his articles, his former employer, Exxon (via it’s fully funded thinktank -AEI), is offering scientists $10,000 to write articles critical of the IPCC findings…
How many articles a day does Bolt do on his website? Even at one column a month … tv appearances …
If your claim is true Micheal it is a very lucrative sideline for a journo. Can you back up your claim with any evidence of monies being paid to skeptics?
7 August, 2008 at 12:47 pm
Rad, you are weasling away from your initial proposition…as usual.
“Rodger Cohen is a Physicist who is appalled by the IPCC;” – Rad
You backed the opinion of this man Roger Cohen, gleefully accepting his insinuations that he was involved in climate research,
“…his experience in climate science….” – Rad
Which appears to be zero.
So you’ve moved on to emphasize this,
“ Over the years our [Exxon] researchers have served as authors of key IPCC report chapters</i”.”
Which makes him what?…….expert by association??
The point is that whetever other people in the same organisation may have done in climate research, it wasn’t done by Roger Cohen, the man whose opinion you have foistered upon us, as purporting to having some scientific standing.
He clearly doesn’t.
Roger Cohen is a retired Exxon Manager who now spends his days writing letters to the editor to his local paper in his hometown of NoWhere, USA, and the delusionist blogosphere picks up on it. Rad, like a demented parrot, then repeats it here.
You climate delusionists are like dogs eating each others vomit.
7 August, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Damn HTML. Why doesn’t wordpress allow a preview?
7 August, 2008 at 1:00 pm
windrider,
As far as I know the AEI deal was only for scientists, as opposed to windbags like Bolt et al.
7 August, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Bolt has linked to the Cohen article in an update to one of his posts. No one has seen the elephant yet…although, to see them, you do have to open your eyes…don’t you. Bolt’s waiting for someone from “the Left” to point it out, at which, no doubt, Bolt will accuse them of smear. Ho hum.
7 August, 2008 at 1:40 pm
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2008/05/what-the-ipcc-models-really-say/langswitch_lang/fr
More on those climate models.
7 August, 2008 at 1:50 pm
“Bolt has linked to the Cohen article in an update to one of his posts. – DeanL
Now there’s a surprise.
7 August, 2008 at 2:28 pm
MEMO TO Bolts Bloggers: I see your mothers know which sexual position produces the ugliest bloggers.
7 August, 2008 at 7:14 pm
Bolt’s sheep are getting into a flap at the moment about what the great man himself ( Paul Keating )said about Costello yesterday. I wouldn’t have put it the way ol’ Paul put put it but it is true about Costello.
Bolta is especially nearly busting a valve, speaking like that about his hero.
Well, Keating’s comments died in the arse as news after he started commenting on Rudd’s management style on the 7.30 Report.
Sledge Costello: Good
Sledge Rudd: Bad
Apparently.
I thought Keating was in fine form yesterday sledging all and sundry. There ought to be more of him.
8 August, 2008 at 3:46 am
I have a strong suspicion that Bolt is receiving money, or some other favors, from some of those with an interest in CO2 emissions continuing unabated, such as Exxon. Id like to see what his reaction would be to a campaign for him to disclose all his sources of income, gifts and other favors. He always claims to be a bastion of honesty, “just telling the truth” etc. I bet my arse there is no way in hell he would submit to an analysis of the sources he’s received income and other things from. Yet if he really is unbiased, and not in the pay of the polluters, what would he have to fear?
8 August, 2008 at 8:49 am
Arnold I share your suspicions, Bolt would be getting something apart from a smug self satisfaction for writing the rubbish he publishes. Bolt probably gets a free pencil, or sharpener from Origin energy every time he writes an article containing the phrase ‘The world needs more CO2′ or whatever other crap he spews out. Bolt is a world class ass(donkey for the U.S.) outside of his clique of berks and dills who worship him like a messiah. Bolt has little or no influence amongst thinking people.
8 August, 2008 at 9:35 am
I doubt very much that Bolt gets anything specific from anyone.
He doesn’t need too. He’s already getting what he wants – which is to be noticed. He’s found a nice little niche for himself as the AGW ’sceptic’, and general contrarian. And in the quest for ‘balance’ there is the ready made ‘dissenter’ in the form of Bolt who can be brought in to a debate.
Bolt may not care now that it is notoriety that he is cultivating , but the future is likely to have a very unkind assessment of him. The wonders of the internet will preserve every stupid, mendacious, bad-faith argument that he has blindly regurgitated from the anti-science, AGW delusionists.
8 August, 2008 at 10:16 am
Check out Bolt’s latest. He’s now commenced his full-on ‘Greens under the Bed’ campaign.
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/preparing_the_green_archipelago/
I find this jaw-dropping stuff. Despite Bolt’s assertions that he presents “reason” and “science” as a counter argument to the AGW debate, we now have to assume that he knows his efforts in this area, which have been shown to amount to nothing more than deceptions and regurgitation of previously refuted counter-science, cannot win him the debate. So he’s now ramping up the scare-mongering and smearing campaign.
These attempts to equate environmentalism with totalitarianism is nothing new for Bolt; but it’s telling that he is now resorting whole-heartedly to the oldest and cheapest of propoganda tricks in his own scare-campain.
It’s actually quite pitiful to watch. Bolt is typical of many that just cannot handle the new reality being thrust upon them. Bolt has carefully constructed a balck and white world for himself in which he knows who the good guys are and who the bad guys are; how society should function; what constitutes the correct culture, art, etc; what makes people happy and gives them their well-being; what are the right elements for economic success; what constitutes individual freedom, etc, etc. These are concepts that everyone forms for themselves one way or another. But for Bolt, they’re set in stone – at least in his mind.
What we are seeing from Bolt now is his reaction to the fact that his world isn’t really exactly as he thought it was. And he’s shit-scared – not that he can admit this. So what are his alternatives? He either has to change his conception of the world and get on with it; or, he has to strive to convince everyone else that his is the real world – that his “real world” is being eroded and usurped by conspiracists.
So will his campaign work? They certainly have in the past – a cold war was run for decades on that very deceit (from both sides). But I don’t think it will this time – surveys have shown that the majority of Australians are convinced about AGW. Despite Bolt’s idiotic misrepresentation of the science and information (Arctic ice, global cooling, weather events, etc), there is (yet) no rational or coherent argument against the science and the facts. I trust and hope that we are living in a different age to that when such campaigns proved effective.
But I am fascinated by the contortions of Bolt and his followers.
I have no doubt our friend RadP will be able to rationalise Bolt’s argument for us…
8 August, 2008 at 10:45 am
lol!! yep a shocker from bolt. it’s like i’ve been saying. the tide is turning and bolt is now just a parody of himself. we’ve seen on insiders and q&a how his peers don’t even take him seriously anymore.
if he keeps up this alarmism he’ll just write himself out of the agw debate cause everyone will think he’s on the fringes. quite simply bolt’s a joke.
8 August, 2008 at 11:08 am
The irony is, if any of his sycophants could see it, that it demonstrates so clearly that Bolt’s position on AGW is not based on reason and rationality, it’s based purely on a political and ideological position. He fails to see how illuminating articles of this type are about himself. Does he really think readers, other than those who have already succumbed to his groupthink, are going to be persuaded by an argument that all environmentalists are merely commies in disguise? And, given the previously mentioned surveys, what does this say about Bolt’s contempt for Australians generally? What does it say about Bolt’s belief in democracy. To completely turn the tables: what does it say about Bolt’s own totalitarian traits, if he can’t accept the fact that the majority of Australians have made it clear they want action taken on the environment and AGW?
Provide your counter arguments and counter-science by all means. But, please, have the dignity to realise that this ideological posturing, ranting and, name-calling (which is essentially what it boils down to), only serves to make you look and sound foolish, shrill and desperate.
8 August, 2008 at 11:16 am
i agree. and to further demonstrate bolt’s own totalitarian tendencies, can you honestly see the kind of debate that has happened with you, rad and others on the science happening on bolt’s blog?
of course not. because counter-science or counter-arguments aren’t the bolt thing. it’s much much easier to do ideological ranting and name-calling instead.
8 August, 2008 at 12:19 pm
To completely turn the tables: what does it say about Bolt’s own totalitarian traits, if he can’t accept the fact that the majority of Australians have made it clear they want action taken on the environment and AGW?
Are you for real Dean?
You have a go at Bolt for making the comparisons between totalitarianism and environmentalism, only to go on and do exactly the same thing against Bolt.
Only to have confessions agree with his outrage of bolts accusations. The Confessions also goes on to do the same thing
i agree. and to further demonstrate bolt’s own totalitarian tendencies, can you honestly see the kind of debate that has happened with you, rad and others on the science happening on bolt’s blog?
You too obviously need to learn the meaning of the work hypocrite.
8 August, 2008 at 12:26 pm
I just had a look at Bolt’s latest . “Jaw-dropping” is about right.
I think he’s positioning himself as the leader of the lunatic fringe.
8 August, 2008 at 12:37 pm
And then there’s this:
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/leftist_blog_users_are_ruder/
Leftst Blug Users Ruder.
Bolt’s take:
It’s true that some of the Left are genuinely nice people motivated by a sense of justice and compassion, however mistakenly applied. But it’s also true that the Left is the natural home of the barbarian.
or:
Swearing = Barbarian
How intellectually vacuous is that?!
8 August, 2008 at 12:39 pm
How intellectually vacuous is that?!
LOL You mean like this;
I just had a look at Bolt’s latest . “Jaw-dropping” is about right.
I think he’s positioning himself as the leader of the lunatic fringe
8 August, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Geez, that’s lame, RadP.
You’re accusing me of hypocrisy for pointing out Bolt’s hypocrisy?
8 August, 2008 at 12:47 pm
You’re accusing me of hypocrisy for pointing out Bolt’s hypocrisy?
You are outraged by Bolt linking environmentalism to totalitarianism only to try and link Bolt to totalitarianism.
If you can see the hypocrisy & irony in that then you are a bigger fool than I thought.
8 August, 2008 at 12:53 pm
That’s a very Bolt-esque segway Rad.
Good to see Andrew taking a stand against naughty words.
Naughty words are, of course, a far greater threat to our society than say…, illogical, irrational and dishonest use of one’s media position to push a do-nothing line in the face of serious environmental problems. Or the related issue of media types promoting a pre-Enlightment, anti-science agenda. That’s OK.
But should Andrews ideological enemies fail to conduct themselves politely at all times – look out!
8 August, 2008 at 12:56 pm
To be a thought a fool by you, RadP, is music to my ears. I couldn’t care less, believe me.
Here’s what I said:
what does it say about Bolt’s own totalitarian traits, if he can’t accept the fact that the majority of Australians have made it clear they want action taken on the environment and AGW?
So, what is non-acceptance of a democratic outcome?
8 August, 2008 at 12:58 pm
Michael, I think Bolt was referring to this kind of abuse;
Richard Ryan
7 August, 2008 at 2:28 pm
MEMO TO Bolts Bloggers: I see your mothers know which sexual position produces the ugliest bloggers
Personally, I think that personal abuse like this is more worthy of; How intellectually vacuous is that?!
I also notice that you have an inability to see the hypocrisy and irony in what you say.
8 August, 2008 at 12:58 pm
Rad, you’re a fool. But that is the idea of course.
Really you’ve just got to laugh at Rads pathetic attempts. Or maybe he deosn’t know what “to completely turn the tables” means??
8 August, 2008 at 1:02 pm
So, what is non-acceptance of a democratic outcome?
LOL Dean you are a fool.
If you think that someone disagreeing with what a pole says is totalatarism then you are deluded.
Using your logic Dean, then anyone you advocates same-sex marriage is a totalitarian as most opinion polls don’t support same-sex marriage.
You are joking, aren’t you?
8 August, 2008 at 1:12 pm
rad can you see the sort of scientific debate that has happened here happening at bolt’s blog? over the past few weeks i have seen posts removed that take the scientific argument to him, or the authors ridiculed, again using distortions and misrepresentations by bolt.
and please do not insult my intelligence by trying to use other completely unrelated egs (same-sex marraige) to try to deflect again.
8 August, 2008 at 1:25 pm
and please do not insult my intelligence by trying to use other completely unrelated egs (same-sex marraige) to try to deflect again
Stop being an idiot Confessions. Now you are being dishonest.
I am applying Dean’s logic to another topic to test it’s validity, in the hope that he will realise how rediculious his argument is.
8 August, 2008 at 1:25 pm
RadP,
Your argument is inane. My whole point is to show how Bolt’s argument can be turned on it’s head to show that he can be accused of having a totalitarian trait too. If you accept Bolt’s argument, then you must accept mine.
Here’s a hint: I don’t believe that Bolt is totalitarian.
You figure it out!
8 August, 2008 at 1:31 pm
My whole point is to show how Bolt’s argument can be turned on it’s head to show that he can be accused of having a totalitarian trait too. If you accept Bolt’s argument, then you must accept mine
But your example of Bolt being totalitarian does not make sense, as I have demonstrated by applying your logic to another, equally contentious topic.
You cannot say that because someone want’s change that they are totalitarian because their opinion isn’t supported by opinion polls.
So what if a majority of Australians want action on Climate Change, the majority of Australians don’t support same-sex marriage. That doesn’t mean that you are totalitarian or even wrong because the majority don’t agree with you.
So to say that Bolt is totalitarian because he is against action on climate change is laughable.
8 August, 2008 at 1:35 pm
“Stop being an idiot Confessions. Now you are being dishonest.”
your deflecting again. and in true bolt sheep style resorting to personal insults to avoid being scrutinised. and so i will ask you again.
rad can you see the sort of scientific debate that has happened here happening at bolt’s blog? over the past few weeks i have seen posts removed that take the scientific argument to him, or the authors ridiculed, again using distortions and misrepresentations by bolt. given that he likes to be referred to as someone who seeks The Truth, don’t you think it is somewhat extreme to be censoring commenters who show him to misrepresent facts concerning agw to suit his own ideological agenda?
8 August, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Well, RadP. Let’s leave it at this: I’m glad you (apparently) agree that Bolt’s assertion that envionmentalism = totalitarianism is inane.
You do agree don’t you?
8 August, 2008 at 1:55 pm
SORRY–Rad Pipper—OK — I will tone it down, asking Bolt’s bloggers who’s their mothers are, would be like asking, which baked bean caused the fart.
8 August, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Well, RadP. Let’s leave it at this: I’m glad you (apparently) agree that Bolt’s assertion that envionmentalism = totalitarianism is inane.
You do agree don’t you?
Bolt is not saying that environmentalism = totalitarianism. Bolt is saying that Global warming evangelism has elements of the same level of totalitarianism that the socialist movement of the 20th Century had.
In particular he is targeting individuals within the Global warming movement that have made totalitarian type statements in the name of AGW.
Again and again we now see the budding totalitarians of global warming demand individuals be sacrificed for this latest cause.
Bolt is also singling our some of the leading voices which advocate AGW.
Which is why my hackles rise to read the latest from Clive Hamilton, former head of the Left-wing Australia Institute and now a Professor of Public Ethics
This is what Hamilton has said
The freedoms of capitalist society, he now claims, “makes us slaves of our passions” and he detects in us (how? where?) “a deep anxiety” over our “internal decay”.
“There is a need – more pressing by the day – to question the value of the economic, political and personal liberty that has been won.”
8 August, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Yep, RadP has swallowed it – without chewing – as usual.
8 August, 2008 at 2:23 pm
Yep, RadP has swallowed it – without chewing – as usual
Dean you are not understanding what Bolt’s point is.
I actually agree with him that there are elements of the AGW movement that are related to the socialist movement of the 20th century.
Climate change evangelism is all about stamping out debate and attacking anyone who dares to disagree with AGW. Hence the commonly used term of denialist. A term which has no place in science.
It is about ignoring the real scientific debate and applying a totalitarian fist to stamping out those that disagree.
8 August, 2008 at 2:26 pm
This bit is interesting:
makes us slaves of our passions” and he detects in us (how? where?) “a deep anxiety” over our “internal decay”
It’s Bolt that is asking: how? where?. It’s a wonder Bolt can be so brazenly hypocritical. His blog is littered with laments for the demise and decay our society and morals.
And how he railed against those that protested against the loss of freedoms in lieu of the terrorism laws! People just don’t know what’s good for them!
8 August, 2008 at 2:28 pm
Climate change evangelism is all about stamping out debate and attacking anyone who dares to disagree with AGW.
That’s right – environmentalists have hijacked the democratic process the world over for their cause.
8 August, 2008 at 2:44 pm
“This is what Hamilton has said,
The freedoms of capitalist society, he now claims, “makes us slaves of our passions” and he detects in us (how? where?) “a deep anxiety” over our “internal decay”.
“There is a need – more pressing by the day – to question the value of the economic, political and personal liberty that has been won.”” – Rad
Yep, an entire book on modern ethics distilled by Bolt (who’s certainly not read it) with a few disembodied phrases to ram it into todays rant on the totalitarian greenies.
ffs!
8 August, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Additionally, if Bolt wasn’t being disingenuous about what Flannery wrote, he would have to admit that Flannery was expressing a fear that totalitarian-like structures would have to be put in place if action wasn’t taken on AGW sooner, rather than later.
8 August, 2008 at 3:01 pm
“It is about ignoring the real scientific debate and applying a totalitarian fist to stamping out those that disagree.” – Rad
What a hoot!!
The “real scientific debate” – which as Rad has repeatedly told us is not the thoudands of peer-reviewed research articles and independant scientists, reflected in the IPCC report. No! It’s the scores of non-climate researchers, the political scientists, the retired physicists, the ex-Exxon managers – that’s the “real scientific debate”, and it’s taking place in the real scientific debating forums- the right wing think tanks, the letters to the editors pages, the Herald Sun blog – that’s where it is, not all those weird places that no one has ever heard of, like the Journal of Climate, etc.
The delusionists are getting so irrational they’re starting to make the Creationists look like reasonable people.
8 August, 2008 at 3:56 pm
confessions…..
if [Bolt] keeps up this alarmism he’ll just write himself out of the agw debate cause everyone will think he’s on the fringes.
Already happened a long time ago. The number of people in positions of serious power who pay any attention to Bolt’s frequently delusional, and always self-serving megalomania, are precisely zero.
8 August, 2008 at 4:00 pm
is precisely zero.
8 August, 2008 at 8:27 pm
“Yep, RadP has swallowed it – without chewing – as usual.”
exactly. you ask a direct question and get nothing. especially when your question shows his hero in the shadows.
radp you are pathetic. a pathetic contortionist who has shown you will go to any lengths to save face rather than admit that you could be wrong. give it up. this site has consistently shown bolt to misrepresent facts to suit his own agenda. and now you’ve been shown to turn a blind a eye to the more unsavoury practices of bolt in the interests of scoring ideological points.
utterly pathetic.
10 August, 2008 at 9:06 pm
Andy reckons getting a lot of hits on a particular website is actually a bad thing – because it will show how useless it is:
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/labor_would_like_a_lot_less_success/
I remember thinking the same thing about a blog just recently…
10 August, 2008 at 9:58 pm
10 things i’ve learnt from bolt’s blog:
1. oil is an infinite resource. we will never run out regardless of how many developing countries become developed countries, and regardless of how many more people we have in the world all demanding use of their own car.
2. hitler was a lefty. we know this because the nazis had the word ’socialist’ as part of their party name.
3. saddam was a lefty. we know this because he was leader of the Ba’ath socialist (THAT word again) party.
4. peter costello is the only living thing on the planet capable of saving the federal liberals.
5. the fanaticism with which agw is argued is limited only to the agw-is-real camp. pink dots, jennifer marohsay;s squeals of “its the fucking blogs dude”, PETA-sponsored abortions-for-the-planet, and babies left in green bags aside, fanatical scepticism is NOT part of the bolt vernacular.
6. 1 million ‘page refreshes’ in one month for me is awesome. 1 million hits to grocery watch in four days is pestillence territory for rudd.
7. building more dams is the only way melbournians can get more water. put another way, dams = rainfall. (PSST somebody get the murray-darling mob on the phone. STAT!)
8. graphs that clearly show warming temperatures over decades aren’t actually showing that. their showing cooling temperatures over one decade only.
9. all the nations media is against the conservatives/liberal party. we know this because the abc employs an ex-communist to front a gardening show.
10. lefty blog users are ruder. we know this because lefties use ‘fuck’ at regular intervals. righty blog users (fuck) on the other hand are far less base (fuck), as we prefer simple racism, (fuck) sexism (fuck), homophobia (fuck) and human indecency to colour our blogging contributions (fuck, fuck, fuck).
ahh bolt. where would we be withoutcha?
11 August, 2008 at 9:59 am
nice summary confessions…
the ten bolt commandments??
11 August, 2008 at 1:44 pm
TEN things I hate about Bolt: (1) He has an arsehole at both ends of his digestive system—in short,he is an unplesant person who frequently talks bullshit, and gets paid for it. (2) He cheats when filling out opinion polls, and gets paid for it. (3) When he smirks, he has a face like a constipated greyhound. (4) He has absolutely no redeeming characteristics. (5) If work was a bed he’d sleep on the floor—-he is a total tosser. (6) he’s a stingy cretin–he wouldn’t give you the steam of his piss. (7) He will go to any lengths to acquire alcohol( esp. for free) (8) He was born a day late and he’s been like that ever since. in short, he is an unreliable and unpunctual tosser, and he gets paid for it. (9)His judgment is utter crap. (1o) He hasn’t a clue how to interact with women,,even those of loose virtue.
11 August, 2008 at 1:48 pm
Isn’t it amazing that the best guys for the job are always on Andy’s side of the “political divide”?
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/how_the_next_president_would_handle_a_war/
It’s a strange sort of system of political merit that Andy uses isn’t it? All based on reason and rationality, of course. It’s just a mere coincidence that things always fall that way. I mean, take that Ruddy twit Rud – Andy wanted to believe in him so badly; gave him time to prove himself to the ever-objective-Andy; but Rudd was just opportunistic on Iraq. Because, let’s face it – even now – it’s so clear that the CoW got it right on Iraq. And Andy called it all the way. Rudd just wouldn’t toe the Boltist line.
And, of course, if everyone else thought the way Andy did – with clarity and complete objectiveness – there’d be no need for elections and the Bureaucracy that comes with pesky ol’ democracy – we’d just sign up with the crew of his choice forever. In fact – why don’t we just sign up with Andy?
Emperor Bolt. Has a nice ring to it, don’t you think?
And no surprise that Andy thinks he’s right across the American political landscape as well as our own. What doesn’t Andy have a good firm grip on?
11 August, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Judging by the last three post’s bolt hit the nail on the head when he said;
It’s true that some of the Left are genuinely nice people motivated by a sense of justice and compassion, however mistakenly applied. But it’s also true that the Left is the natural home of the barbarian
Not only do you spray hate at Bolt Richard but in the same sentence you degrade women.
(1o) He hasn’t a clue how to interact with women,,even those of loose virtue
Richard you seem to have a lot of hate built up inside, have you thought about seeing a councillor?
11 August, 2008 at 1:59 pm
I agree with RadP. (Yes, I do!)
You’re vile Richard Ryan.
Please go away.
11 August, 2008 at 2:00 pm
Listen, Richard Ryan, I think that’s about enough of the personal stuff. How about you stick to debating the ideas and not the person? Otherwise we’ll have no choice but to put your comments into moderation.
11 August, 2008 at 2:00 pm
I mean, take that Ruddy twit Rud – Andy wanted to believe in him so badly; gave him time to prove himself to the ever-objective-Andy; but Rudd was just opportunistic on Iraq.
You have to admit that Bolt had Rudd figured out well before everyone else did. Bolt was highlighting Rudd’s all spin and no substance last year, well before the rest of us, including the media picked up on it.
11 August, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Ah, the “Rudd’s all spin” line. That’s one that’s really worked for the Cons – I mean, look at how it’s translated to such unbridled and overwhelming support for the Libs.
11 August, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Ah, the “Rudd’s all spin” line. That’s one that’s really worked for the Cons – I mean, look at how it’s translated to such unbridled and overwhelming support for the Libs
Given the backlash against GroceryWatch and fuelWatch, along with the disastrous result for the ALP in the NT, it looks like people are beginning to tire of all the political spin. There is a very good reason why Rudd is refusing to put ALP candidates in the up coming By-Elections.
11 August, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Actually, the “Libspin” on the GrocerWatch stuff is quite telling about their collective cognitive dissonance. They’re bitching and complaining that it doesn’t do anthing about prices, as if they expected Rudd to jump in and distort the markets with some sort of interventionist scheme. [And they keep spouting the line that's what he said he'd do; or, the perception he created.] Yet, if he did do something to actively distort the market (and I’m only presuming here), they’d have to be complaining about it on their own ideological grounds.
Such is the hypocrisy of Opposition.
11 August, 2008 at 2:16 pm
Actually, the “Libspin” on the GrocerWatch stuff is quite telling about their collective cognitive dissonance. They’re bitching and complaining that it doesn’t do anthing about prices, as if they expected Rudd to jump in and distort the markets with some sort of interventionist scheme. [And they keep spouting the line that's what he said he'd do; or, the perception he created.]
One of the reason’s for Howard’s downfall was the perception in the 2004 election that he would lower interest rates. Now he never actually promised to lower interest rates, but he gave the electorate the perception that he would.
Likewise, Rudd never promised to lower fuel or grocery prices, but like Howard on interest rates, he gave the electorate the perception that he would. Like Howard, this will come back to bite Rudd on the arse.
The electorate showed in last years election that they are willing to punish a politician when the give the perception that they will do something and they don’t.
11 August, 2008 at 3:07 pm
“What doesn’t Andy have a good firm grip on?“- DeanL
Objective reality?
11 August, 2008 at 3:08 pm
“One of the reason’s for Howard’s downfall was the perception in the 2004 election that he would lower interest rates”
sorry, i don’t agree with that. most people would of known governments cannot control interest rates. the main reasons howard lost government was he was seen to be leading a tired, old, stale government. the old ‘time to give the other mob a go’ mentality definitaly prevailed in my view.
11 August, 2008 at 3:10 pm
“along with the disastrous result for the ALP in the NT – Rad
Good to see Rad sticking to topics which he knows essentially nothing about.
11 August, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Compared to some of the comments on Bolts blog to leftys, I class myself as an altar boy,Go and have a look at some of the nasty vile comments to Geoff of Shepperton, on Bolt’s forum—-today. How do you get so many fuck-wits on one blog?
11 August, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Also they are putting shit on me on Tizona’s weblog, with no right of reply,they must have been watching blairboltwatch, was banned there for putting shit on Bolta, and one of his buddies Blair, who I have not said any words of malice against—this lot make Bolta look conservative—-I think this lot come from where that movie was made—–Deliverence—–all look like inbreds—-strange bloggers there on Tizona’s weblog.
11 August, 2008 at 3:52 pm
confessions—-nobody can deny that WorkChoices wasa big factor in the Howards Regime loss in the Federal election. As a factory worker, WorkChoices was not to boost wages for low-paid workers, it was to exploit them,to make labour cheaper.
12 August, 2008 at 8:47 am
along with the disastrous result for the ALP in the NT – Rad
Good to see Rad sticking to topics which he knows essentially nothing about
I’m sorry Michael, I didn’t realise there was a secret message in the NT election results that was only know to a select few.
Silly me, I didn’t realise a MASSIVE swing away from the government could me something other than voter backlash. Maybe the voters are playing hard to get Michael and they really wanted to vote for the ALP.
It seems that you are the one that is delusional Michael. atleast in your delusional world, the NT results were a fantastic result for the ALP.
12 August, 2008 at 9:27 am
The “massive swing” against the Govt was in the order of 9% which was exactly the size of the massive swing against the CLP in the 2005 NT election which saw the conservatives reduced to a rump (4 seats out of 25). That was mainly due to a temporary bout of stupidity in the CLP rather than a sudden shift to a more pro-ALP electorate, which has been historically conservative (26 yrs of conservative rule before the first ever Labor victory in 2001).
This result (13 L, 11 CLP, 1 I) returns the NT LA to the 2001 situation. (13 ALP, 10 CLP, 2 I). All that has happened is that the voters who deserted the CLP in 2005 have returned.
This ‘voter backlash’ has reproduced the level of support that gave the ALP it’s first election victory, in what was considered a huge shock and a ‘voter backlash’ against the CLP.
As I said, you don’t know what you are talking about.
12 August, 2008 at 9:58 am
That was mainly due to a temporary bout of stupidity in the CLP rather than a sudden shift to a more pro-ALP electorate, which has been historically conservative (26 yrs of conservative rule before the first ever Labor victory in 2001).
Maybe if Rudd is not careful, the Australian voting public in the 2010 federal election will return to the voting situation of the 2004 election where the liberal were delivered a landslide against the ALP.
Maybe this is an indication to all serving governments that voters are retuning to voting habits of the early part of this decade, which still means disaster for Rudd.
12 August, 2008 at 10:28 am
That doesn’t quite gel with the facts.
If you compare the last 3 NT/Fed results; 2001 – NT Labor win, continuing Fed Coalition win; 2004 Fed Coalition win, 2005 devastating conservative loss in NT, 2007 Fed Coalition loss, 2008 NT CLP make lost ground.
The Federal lesson from NT election results is that there is no Federal lesson.
12 August, 2008 at 10:38 am
The Federal lesson from NT election results is that there is no Federal lesson
I suppose you will say the same if there is a backlash against the ALP in WA next month.
The writing is on the wall Michael.
12 August, 2008 at 11:24 am
Matt “The writing is on the wall” – gold.
Is it? from what I have seen on the web there would need to be a swing of at least 3.6% against labour for the coalition to win WA. I doubt that will happen when everyone is earning a truck load out of the mining boom over there.
Matt – you say Rudd is all spin.. If that is the case Howard was all weasel words.. Lawyer speak. The only time he ever catagorically stated a position he later went against it “Never Ever” GST??
12 August, 2008 at 11:33 am
“I suppose you will say the same if there is a backlash against the ALP in WA next month. ” – Rad
Exactly right.
I’ll say – “The Federal lesson from NT election results is that there is no Federal lesson.”
12 August, 2008 at 11:36 am
Is it? from what I have seen on the web there would need to be a swing of at least 3.6% against labour for the coalition to win WA. I doubt that will happen when everyone is earning a truck load out of the mining boom over there.
Isn’t that what they were saying in NT last week before there was a massive swing of over 9% away from the ALP?!
You are showing the same arrogance that the NT ALP were showing when they called an early election. The same arrogance that nearly lost them the un losable state election.
12 August, 2008 at 11:53 am
“there would need to be a swing of at least 3.6% against labour for the coalition to win WA.”
it isn’t a coalition in WA. the nats have split from the libs over the one vote one value laws which the libs supported. another reason why it will be difficult for the libs to defeat labor.
12 August, 2008 at 1:04 pm
“Matt – you say Rudd is all spin.. If that is the case Howard was all weasel words.. Lawyer speak.”
Very true. I hate, as should all people with an interest in effective governance, the spin and politician-speak that has come to define Australian politics. This is not a Rudd invention, as Howard and his government were the past masters of it. Steve Bracks learned carefully from Howard and was an expert at taking a long time to say precisely nothing. The last politicians to brazenly speak their mind were Paul Keating, Jeff Kennett and Mark Latham. They were all spurned spectacularly by the electorate. So are we all to blame for the current blandness in Australian politics? Or is it just a cycle and are we waiting for people to get sick of this style of politician and demand at least some charisma?
12 August, 2008 at 1:12 pm
This is not a Rudd invention
But Rudd has taken political Spin to the next level. At least previous politicians used spin in collaboration with actual political policies, results and action. Rudd uses spin to cover up inaction. GroceryWatch would have to be the zenith of maximum spin, zero government action. The Grocery Watch website leaves Australians with the belief that Rudd believes that Australians are stupid and very easily fooled.
12 August, 2008 at 1:34 pm
US President George Bush told us not long ago that John Howard was “a man of conviction” No true Aussie can deny this praise. There was conviction when he said Muslim refugees threw their children overboard off the coast of Western Australia. Howard’s words carried conviction when he said that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction, which was our reason for going to war. There was conviction when he said it was fair to detain Hicks without trial or charge. Howard a former lawyer, his words carry conviction—-but I believe they have little truth. Howard is a war criminal, but he is our war criminal, and I say that with full conviction on my part.
12 August, 2008 at 1:38 pm
Howard is a war criminal, but he is our war criminal, and I say that with full conviction on my part
LOL . And with that one sentence you lose ALL credibility. I suppose you also believe that the moon landing was faked and that the aids virus was created by the US government?!
12 August, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Matt “The Grocery Watch website leaves Australians with the belief that Rudd believes that Australians are stupid and very easily fooled.”
I believe your belief is beyond believable…
12 August, 2008 at 2:03 pm
I believe your belief is beyond believable…
DB, if you believe that the GroceryWatch website does anything then you are a bigger fool than I thought.
12 August, 2008 at 2:13 pm
I don’t know about the moon landing, and the aids virus, but I sure know that those two buildings the symbol of capitalism, was an “inside job” and it was two days before I heard of it, did not know, still they could have killed more, it they had used nuclear, as in Japan—Rad Pipper, it’s all karma, what goes around comes around.
12 August, 2008 at 2:23 pm
I don’t know about the moon landing, and the aids virus, but I sure know that those two buildings the symbol of capitalism, was an “inside job” and it was two days before I heard of it, did not know, still they could have killed more, it they had used nuclear, as in Japan—Rad Pipper, it’s all karma, what goes around comes around
You are a real freak Richard. I suspect that you forgot to take your medication this morning. I suppose your closest friend is the easter bunny as well.
12 August, 2008 at 2:28 pm
Agreed, grocery watch is utterly pointless and a waste of taxpayer funds and public servants time watching grocery prices, the major supermarkets already provide prices online, which people can compare themselves.
Rudd better come up with some better policies than the silly watch-websites and 20/20 summits as Australia faces some genuine challenges in the future. Pity in Australia whenever government changes, the opposition is left so weak that they are not able to more effectively challenge the government, when that government comes up with nonsense.
12 August, 2008 at 2:34 pm
Richard Ryan, you sound as silly, if not sillier than some of the people you hate over at Bolt Blog, especially when you spout nonsense about Sept. 11 being an ‘inside job’.
12 August, 2008 at 2:50 pm
Hey Matt I was having a go at your belief of beliefs.. not sticking up for the grocery watch website. Personally I believe it is too hard to track it all that way. A much sounder system is to use unit pricing in stores so that consumers can see how much they are paying per unit or 100gm’s. It is done in other countries and is an easy way to tell which brand costs more for different sized packages.
12 August, 2008 at 2:56 pm
I don’t know about the moon landing, and the aids virus, but I sure know that those two buildings the symbol of capitalism, was an “inside job” and it was two days before I heard of it, did not know, still they could have killed more, it they had used nuclear, as in Japan—Rad Pipper, it’s all karma, what goes around comes around.
Absolute, unadulterated gibberish. Drinking early today aren’t we?
12 August, 2008 at 3:04 pm
Daics—-got your knickers in a knot again—-what have you been smoking today?
12 August, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Ron– in the art of killing you can’t beat the Yanks, and they love the art of killing also. It’s in there blood—injuns-negroes-buffalo etc. etc .
12 August, 2008 at 3:30 pm
MEMO to THE EDITOR, SEE, how some of the blown ins from Bolt’s Blog behave,when I tell that John Howard is a war criminal, they get nasty,vile, and personal, when they don’t like what they hear. This tactic was used on me on BOLT’S blog, with the blessing from Andrew, and his moderators. But when I came back with a vile reply I was snipped.
12 August, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Don’t worry Richard, Rad (Mighty Matt) lost his credibility a loooooong time ago.
12 August, 2008 at 4:00 pm
I don’t know about the moon landing, and the aids virus, but I sure know that those two buildings the symbol of capitalism, was an “inside job” and it was two days before I heard of it, did not know, still they could have killed more, it they had used nuclear, as in Japan—Rad Pipper, it’s all karma, what goes around comes around
Now I know that they flung open the doors of the Mental asylum and let all the lunies out.
Richard, is your shrink aware that you haven’t returned to the asylum yet?
12 August, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Richard, I do not like Howard either and I think Andrew Bolt is a complete berk. Nor was I personally insulting you. However I think it is a little simplistic to think all Americans love killing, many Americans protested against the war in Iraq and W Bush has very low popularity amongst his own people. The world is more complicated than to be seen through the prism of black and white, Bolt sees things that way, thinking should be more flexible. We should not become what we despise.
12 August, 2008 at 5:09 pm
“I think this lot come from where that movie was made—–Deliverence—–all look like inbreds”
“How do you get so many fuck-wits on one blog?”
“MEMO TO Bolts Bloggers: I see your mothers know which sexual position produces the ugliest bloggers.”
Just some of your finest work from the last 24 hours, Richard Ryan. And you have the temerity to complain that other bloggers are “nasty,vile, and personal.”
Whatever points you do try to make get lost under your blanket of stream-of-consciousness vomit. You don’t belong on an otherwise thought-provoking blog. Witness the clever analysis at the top of the page, incidentally what everyone was talking about before you marched in, the classical bastard complaining that other bastards called you a bastard.
12 August, 2008 at 5:39 pm
Fish and bloggers have a lot in common,they wouldn’t get into trouble if they kept their mouths shut.
12 August, 2008 at 6:06 pm
Rad P, Michael is correct when he says:
“The Federal lesson from NT election results is that there is no Federal lesson.”
Results in NT elections tell no story at all for the federal scene. Never have. Furthermore, NT elections results are notoriously difficult to predict and interpret, for a bunch of reasons.
If you looking for comfort for the federal conservatives, you will have to look elsewhere.
13 August, 2008 at 5:17 pm
Not sure if you’ve seen this post yet, but I found it quite amusing (and its even partially on topic for this blog entry)
Are conservationists really just a bunch of posh, middle-class hypocrites?
Evan Maloney
http://blogs.news.com.au/news/splat/index.php/news/comments/are_conservationists_really_just_a_bunch_of_posh_middle_class_hypocrites/
extract:
Despite the superficial similarities Burchill might at first glance appear to have with her fellow-Greens-basher, Andrew “Mooncalf” Bolt, Burchill stands leagues apart from Mooncalf, who certainly does his best to throw up witty barbs at such opponents as Philip Adams, but whose wit is the literary equivalent of sliced toe-jam cheesed under the nose with an unspoken imperative like, “Carn, sniff it, sniff it!” wafting from the page. Bolt’s most lateral idea for an insult is to call someone “a communist” or “an artist”, as if a world without story, music or art would be a world that we could all just set down to enjoying far more than this regrettable world filled with such evils as The Rolling Stones, Monty Python, Michelangelo, Dylan Thomas, Mozart, Bansky and Rolf Harris. I just checked the old Mooncalf’s blog to see if he had written anything on Burchill recent debate on BBC4 with environmentalist and posh boy George Monbiot and caught instead a sniff of Bolt’s toe-jam directed at Philip Adams (a man whom I do not know except to say that he generously agreed to judge a literary prize for writing on East Timor that I helped organise twelve years ago, while many other writers and journalists ignored our requests). At one point the old Mooncalf gloats with all the maturity of a sneeringly retarded Ginger Meggs in the playschool playground that he’s got more comments on his blog than Philip Adams does on his. Yep, and let’s not forget that the Titanic got more bums on seats than any other film in history, the bible is the best selling work of fiction ever written and the only band to have six consecutive singles go straight to No. 1 on the UK charts is Boyzone.
While Mooncalf slices off toe-jam like a goat, Julie Burchill is something else entirely. Here’s just a few of her past pugilistic presentations:
end of extract
13 August, 2008 at 11:32 pm
I found your site on technorati and read a few of your other posts. Keep up the good work. I just added your RSS feed to my Google News Reader. Looking forward to reading more from you down the road!
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