29 November, 2008...6:59 am

We are Mumbai; They are al Qaeda

By Tobias Ziegler

The world’s attention is focused on the horrific terrorist attacks in Mumbai. Although the situation is not settled, the final death toll is not known, and the gunmen continue to hold hostages, a natural question has arisen – who are the attackers and why did they do it? Foreign policy commentators are noting something about the expert wisdom regarding these events:

An interesting article by Alan Cowell and Mark McDonald in today’s New York Times reveals an inconvenient truth about analysts who study terrorism: they often have wildly divergent views about the same events.

Fortunately, we have Andrew Bolt on the ground in Melbourne. He knows exactly what is going on – and he tells us about it in today’s column. It is “An attack on us all.” Thanks to our intrepid and insightful columnist, we know the following:

  • The attacks targeted places where Westerners and Jews in India are likely to be – thus, it was an attack on the West.
  • The attacks were probably carried out by “al-Qaida or associated Islamist groups” – because they hate the West.
  • Responsibility for the attacks has been claimed by a previously unheard-of group named the “Deccan Mujahideen”, which some experts have suggested may be the same group as the “Indian Mujahideen”. But these local groups don’t have the resources or organisation to pull off an attack of this magnitude.
  • The aim of the attack “seems to be to split the country from the West.”
  • This is not George W. Bush’s fault. These attacks are the exception that prove the rule – terrorist attacks have dropped since 9/11. These devastating and brutal attacks in India are a sign of Al Qaeda’s desperation as they are reduced to focusing on the “easier target” of India.
  • The only way these attacks will end is for all Muslims to love freedom and be horrified by the notion of jihad.

Now, let’s be clear. It is plausible that at least some of Bolt’s assertions about the attacks will turn out to be right. As the attackers are neutralised and identified, a clearer picture of who is directly responsible, why they carried out the attacks, and what (if any) support they had from international organisations will emerge.

But the degree of uncertainty and the number of competing theories out there at the moment highlight something – terrorism and international relations are exceedingly complex issues. There are many radical groups in the world, with many different motivations. These attacks may relate to the dispute over the Kashmir region; they may relate to internal rifts within India; and they may have some connection to groups who want to see Westerners die.

But for an Australian writer to boil all of this down to a global conflict between two irreoncilable groups – “the West” and Islam – is foolish. It does not give one’s readers a genuine understanding of why these particular atrocities were committed by these particular people at this particular time. What’s more, it disregards the fact that “the West” are not the only people affected by this – while Australians and others have been killed in these attacks, so have people from India – and they have been dying in bombings that have occurred regularly in recent times. This is happening on their streets; even those who are not victims of the violence are affected by it. To sit in one’s office in Melbourne and tell everyone that this is all about us is both arrogant and ignorant.

In short, my impression of Bolt’s column is this – it’s a complex world out there, and Andrew Bolt’s mind is far too simple to do it justice.

1,141 Comments

  • Lee Harvey Oddworld

    As horrific as the attacks are, what’s equally disturbing is the reductive rhetroic that terrorism unleashes in fundamentalist (sic) commentators like Bolt — it’s “the forces of evil against those who love freedom”, the sort of mind-numbing tosh we had to endure for years after 9/11.

  • in today paper pakistani terrorist group are said to be responsible and is backed up by indian government. but yeah let’s wait to see results of investigation before jumping in boots and all and declaring the motivations before the authorities.

  • [...] The filtering of these attacks through the prism of Islam vs The West. I have already said more about this at TBBWP. [...]

  • How far do you need to have your head up your arse to see these attacks as “an attack on us”?

    Sorry Bolty, but as incredibly important as we westerners are, maybe western targets in India were just a means to an end for the attackers.

  • Great point. My only complaint is that I wish you’d say who writes what post.

    Bolt also made an idiotic post the other day about Guantanamo Bay. He said that most of the people there were alleged to have committed acts of terrorism. Therefore, Obama wanting to shut it down (”to the cheers of journalists”) is bad.

    I don’t think he’s realised that just because they’ve allegedly committed a crime, they aren’t necessarily guilty.

  • Stakes, until your comment, I hadn’t actually noticed that the WordPress template TBBWP uses doesn’t list the post’s author. I wrote this one.

    I saw that Gitmo post, and had the same thought as you. I also don’t think he’s realised that if they have solid evidence that a detainee was involved in carrying out or planning crimes, then it might be appropriate to charge and try them – and after their conviction, nobody is going to argue about their imprisonment.

  • There was one of those “why hasnt Jill Singer piped up and blamed George W for the attacks already” letters in todays Hun. Ill do it. If Pakistan is responsible then George W is to blame for backing Musharraf and his cronies (who are no doubt shielding Osama from capture). Damn Americans.

  • Holler Out by Bolt:
    Another warning that Britain now has an export industry in jihadists:

    It is too early to tell whether British-born Pakistanis were among the Mumbai terrorists, Gordon Brown said today in response to claims that at least two Britons were involved.

    Holler Back by Dr John:
    As a Scot, I would simply point out that the Pakis from Leeds are not British at all, other than that they may have been born in the UK. There are ethnically Asian and culturally Islamic, the latter by choice. They have also chosen terror. Most people in Britain would tell you all of this was on the cards for years, and that the UK government was foolish to let so many Muslims in. Enoch Powell said as much in 1968, and he was right.

    Britain’s terrorist problem is not ‘home-grown’ but rather imported from Pakistan. Ordinary British people were given no choice in this.

    Dr John (Reply)
    Sat 29 Nov 08 (09:07am)

    It is too early to know the truth but obviously not too early to print some gossip. And not too early to use an unconfirmed report to stir up some cheers for a personal cause.

  • Shorter (last 7 years of) Bolt:

    The answer is Al-Qaeda. What was the question?

  • I’m sure many of the hundred or more local commmuters who were gunned down at the train station died thinking ‘You know, this isn’t just an attack on us, it’s an attack on Australians too’.

    The Professional Idiot has a truly fucked mind.

  • Chris of Brisbane

    Like all orthodoxial ideologues, Bolt’s pontifications and tribal rhetoric about the issues involved in Mumbai, as with most complex international issues, is akin to someone trying to place a square peg in a round hole. Ostensibly, the more educated one becomes in international relations, the less likely they are too take up simplified and generalised positions, and spout out tribal rhetoric.

    Tribal cheerleading and incessant attempts to utilise complex international issues too bash ones perceived political opponents and engage in culture war type rhetoric, are foreign behavioural traits for people that really understand issues of international relations.

  • Chris of Brisbane

    “If we refused to notice or react, thinks the Left, maybe they’ll go away.”

    What an utterly meaningless and useless statement. Bolt’s amateurism, lack of maturity, lack of understanding and lack of any sort of contribution to adult debate, resonates on a daily basis, across most of the subjects he covers with his dribble.

  • Gee fancy that nasty Mr Bolt expressing some solidarity with the Indians. Of course left wing columnists never ever express any sort of an opinion about foriegn policy until every shred of evidence is presented in a court of law.
    Sorry but if the terrorists tried to identify the Americans and Brits and you attacked the hotels they frequent the odds of this being an attack on the West are north of 90%. Terribly annoying isn’t it.
    If you are going to complain about Bolt and Blair find something material.

  • “If you are going to complain about Bolt and Blair find something material.”

    Which universe do you inhabit sir?

  • Sorry but if the terrorists tried to identify the Americans and Brits and you attacked the hotels they frequent the odds of this being an attack on the West are north of 90%. Terribly annoying isn’t it.” – Kingsley.

    As well considered and thougtfully argued as a brick through a window.

    The terrorists were looking for maximal imapct, and picking tourists/foreigners was clearly a winning strategy. There have been plenty of other attacks in India over the last few years, but I doubt any have got anything like the media attention of this. And what were the demands that we know of so far from them – the release of their jailed supporters. This seems to be a local Indian internal matter with foreigners targetted for utilitarian reasons.

    It’s only an “attack on the west” for the utterly self-absorbed.

  • Yeah I think you two (Kingsley and Michael) are onto something there.

    It would be good if someone were to ask them whether it was a western thing, or an internal thing using westerners as a media tool, or both… or something else we have yet to consider.

  • Yeah, how about an an attack on hotels.

    They clearly attacked 2 major hotels and the people who use them.

    I think they hate hotels for their freedom.

  • You’re right, they’re just jealous of the hotels. They try to play it cool, but we all know they’ve resented Oberoi’s gangsta style and badass threads from the very beginning.

    Really terrorists… don’t hate the player, hate the game.

  • Also, the terrorists attacked the major financial areas of the city, which is where foreign tourists tend to stay.

    But then, Bolt sees EVERYTHING through a Left/Right prism.

  • from his “Mumbai still bleeding” piece (yesterday) about reports 2 british nationals had involved in attacks:

    “UPDATE 2: Another warning that Britain now has an export industry in jihadists:”

    does it get any more alarmist? britain finds a new export commodity: jihadits FFS!

    fortunately some sense from the ABC:

    “According to British media reports, Indian television news channel NDTV reported that “British citizens of Pakistani origin” were among the attackers who stormed two luxury Mumbai hotels and other key targets on Wednesday. However these reports have since been denied.”

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/11/30/2433631.htm

    once again andy jumps on the alarmist bandwagon and once again ends up looking like the thanksgiving turkey that keeps on giving.

  • The list of victims confirms Bolts “attack on the west” thesis.

    Of the near 200 victims,
    US – 6
    Aus – 2
    Canadian – 2
    French – 2
    UK – 1
    German- 1
    Israeli -1
    Singaporean – 1
    Thai – 1
    Italian – 1
    Japanese – 1

    As you can see this was clearly an attack on the west. The murderous terrorists specifically targetted westerners. Though it seems that they were poor shots, as a number of other unspecified types of people were also killed.

  • I suspect that this is sort of a copy of the Bali bombings — there’s no doubt that the best way to generate mass world publicity for whatever terrorist cause is to target tourist areas, after all as was mentioned above, bombings have been going on in India for years with barely a passing mention in the Western media, this however, will probably be in the front of the newspapers for weeks…

    An attack on the West ? Maybe….although only in as much as Bali was an attack on the West…More an attack on what the terrorists perceive to be their own country’s moral decadence in catering to the “sins” of foreign tourists.

    As to who is responsible, obviously time will tell, I believe only one of the terrorists survived, allegedly a Pakistani national, I heard on this morning’s news that India was blaming the Pakistani government, who were of course denying it — no surprises there.

  • Tobias,

    I don’t understand your article. How can you argue that at least one of the aims of this was not to split India from the West? Clearly, attacking hotels frequented by foreigner and a Jewish centre in one of the most westernised areas of India must have some purpose. If they solely wanted to kill Indians, they could have gone to many other parts of the country. No, it is clear that this attack will damage relations between India and the West at a minimum because Western tourists will think twice about going there. This will obviously have an economic impact on India.

    And lastly, if this wasn’t an attack on the West – how do you explain the terrorists specifically targetting British and Americans?

    Clearly, it was in part an attack on the West. That is not the only reason for the attack – but it is clearly one of the reasons.

    Do you (and your commentators) so hate Bolt that you would criticise him for anything? Even when the liberal media appear to agree that one of the aims is to end India’s push into globalisation:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/30/mumbai-terror-attacks-india1

  • I tried to post this link before, but my comment seems to have been swallowed. GavinM – this article in the Guardian clearly supports the notion that this was a step up from the earlier bombings in that it specifically targeted westerners – in part to weaken India’s ties with the West.

    Both Bali and this can be catergorised as, in part, both attacks on both Westerners and Hindus.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/30/mumbai-terror-attacks-india1

  • His post today is appalling – smearing the “left” and planting a seed in the minds of his readers by insinuating that the “left” are going to apologise for/support the Mumbai terrorists :

    “Before some in the Left prepare their standard apologias, arguments of moral relativism or appeals for negotations, consider this about the Mumbai terrorists”…..

    Then anyone who points out “that’s a bit rough” gets slammed by his disciples …”But you love David Hicks !!! Therefore you love the Mumbai terrorists !! You drink Kool Aid!!”

    Someone asked Bolt to provide proof that the “left” support terrorism …and he has put up a list of links in response. I suspect they are links to radical conspiracy sites ? Or random individuals not necessarily supporting the terrorists but asking for calm (which Bolt interprets as “support.”)

    Any comments which point out that Bolt should not be making this tragedy a “left v right” thing are met with abuse. How this man continues to be published is beyond me.

  • It’s all standard right-tard issue stuff.

    Don’t think/analayse, react!

    Turn your brain off, salute the flag, shoulder arms and march in lock step.

  • Michael,

    Do you ever stop to think before posting?

  • “How this man continues to be published is beyond me.”

    Because he’s a sensationalist appealing to the lowest common denominator, unfortunately the lowest common denominator encompasses a large proportion of the population.

    Murdoch doesn’t care, he’ll pay a dog whistling bigot like Bolt, a fringe right wing lunatic, as long as he sells papers.

    The best we can do is not visit Bolt’s blog. If we find that we can’t resist temptation it is vital that we don’t make any dissenting posts, this will only increase the Herald Sun’s revenue.

  • Someone asked Bolt to provide proof that the “left” support terrorism …and he has put up a list of links in response. I suspect they are links to radical conspiracy sites ? Or random individuals not necessarily supporting the terrorists but asking for calm (which Bolt interprets as “support.”)

    I visited Bolt’s blog of shame to look for his ‘proofs’ that leftists are supporting this latest act of terror, since all of the lefty sites I’ve visited have expressed horror at this tragedy.
    I checked the first 4 of Bolt’s links, and not a single one points to leftists supporting or apologising for the terrorists, and none of the links demonstrate any calls for negotiation.
    Bolt lies so instinctively and habitually that he probably doesn’t even really he does it any more.

  • Do you ever stop to think before posting?</i” – Nic

    No, I take a swig of the Kool-Aid, then reflexively apologise for terrorists, demand to negotiate with them, do some ‘moral relativism’ and then pretend it never happened…..like any good terrorist loving lefty.

  • Why can’t html and I get along?

  • Akerman was running a similar line (of course). His take: Leftists are that one’s that lead to governments pursuing a soft course of action in relation to Terrorists.

    It’s a completely meaningless narrative. What action is it that Akerman and Bolt want to take in relation to Terrorists that is being hindered or prevented as a result of the “sympathetic” approach of Leftists?

    The notion that Leftists “support” terrorists or are apologists for them is a complete nonsense.

    As we have found out with Russia’s tactics in a couple of instances: Call your enemy a “Terrorist” and you have the immediate right to wipe them off the face of the earth.

  • “Leftists are that one’s…”?

    English is a 2nd language…yet to find the 1st.

    Apologies: replace with “the ones”

  • “The notion that Leftists “support” terrorists or are apologists for them is a complete nonsense.”

    Yes but the Boltards see it like this:

    You’re either with us or you are with the terrorists. There’s no grey area, one either agrees 100% with GWB or one is for the terrorists!

    /Sarcasm.

  • Bolt’s use of the term “Leftist” is similar to the use of “Civil Libertarians” by the radio Shock Jocks. It’s a convenient catch-all for those who dare disagree with them or want to put a contrary or a more nuanced argument. It also makes his Group Thinkers and sychophants feel more militantly tribal.

    It also saves him the trouble of having to address particular articles or analyses individually.

    I’ve noticed that the comment moderation is increasingly more lenient to those that personally denigrate anyone that dares to voice a contrary view to Bolt and his Mob.

    I love Bolt’s use of the word “Troll” too. Like he’d actually know what it meant. A hint for you Bolta: It doesn’t mean someone who dares disagree with you. Besides, you already have a word for that: “Leftist”.

  • I love Bolt’s use of the word “Troll” too. Like he’d actually know what it meant. A hint for you Bolta: It doesn’t mean someone who dares disagree with you. Besides, you already have a word for that: “Leftist

    LMAO …………….. Oh DeaniaL that would have to be the funniest, most ironic thing you have said ALL year. You trow around the Troll word as much as most people and you always use it against those of us that disagree with you.

    So, before you ask bolt to take not of your Hint, you need to realise that a troll doesn’t mean someone who dares disagree with you

    Thankyou DeaniaL you are comedy gold

  • Nic, you were making a bit of sense until you used the term “liberal media”. Then you started to sound like a deluded idiot.

  • Oh look it’s Rad Pipper, the poster who said recently of the Palestinians:

    “The Palestinians are not locked up in ghetto’s. They have every opportunity to turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other.”

    To prove to the world that he doesn’t have a fucking clue, that all he is interested in is trolling.

    Piss off you clueless troll!

  • Piss off you clueless troll!

    More comedy gold. The irony just keeps on keeping on.

  • So RadMatt’s got himself out of the hyperbaric chamber after last week’s pummelling and now he’s asking for more. The boy is a hero.

  • So RadMatt’s got himself out of the hyperbaric chamber after last week’s pummelling and now he’s asking for more. The boy is a hero

    I think that you have spent way too much time playing with yourself that you no longer realise when you are playing with yourself.

  • “More comedy gold. The irony just keeps on keeping on.”

    But you wrote this:

    “the Palestinians are not locked up in ghetto’s. They have every opportunity to turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other”

    I think you need to go and look up the word irony you utterly clueless twat!

  • I think you need to go and look up the word irony you utterly clueless twat!

    There is no irony in my comment. Given a strong government every country has the ability to be prosperous. Especially when organisation like Hamas, who are only interested in total annihilation of their neighbour are expelled from the country.

  • “Given a strong government every country has the ability to be prosperous.”

    Come on Rob, credit where it’s due. You’ve got to admit that’s funny.

  • “I think that you have spent way too much time playing with yourself that you no longer realise when you are playing with yourself.”

    How did you know? Have you been stalking me RadMatt?

  • Badbob – I know it is a bit of an Americanism, don’t mean to use the term “liberal media” in a negative sense. But, if you know it – the Guardian (one of my favourite newssites) would qualify as about the most consistently liberal medium in the English speaking world.

  • “Given a strong government every country has the ability to be prosperous.”

    They don’t have a country you ignorant twat!

    “Come on Rob, credit where it’s due. You’ve got to admit that’s funny.”

    Actually BadBob, with people as ignorant as Rad no wonder our politicians get away with murder. No wonder there’s support for idiots like GW and their idiotic wars of choice based on utter bullshit. No wonder pricks like Howard get away with blatant lies for the purposes of vilifying asylum seekers. there are enough twats to swallow their shit, Rad is a classic example.

    It would be funny BadBob if it weren’t so sad!

  • http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2008/12/01/1227979890212.html

    Explains much about why a smut-peddeler like Murdoch employs scumbags like Bolt/Blair.

    I’m happy Bolt writes his lunatic rantings because he attracts the lunatic fringe, which keeps them near their keyboards and off the streets. The mad Bolt style surely frightens sensible people away from conservatism. Bolt seems immature and silly, some of his regulars are positively unhinged, outside of his own world the man is a laughing stock.

  • back to the topic please ladies and gents …

    And if Rad could stop diverting the topic of this post and comment on the post at hand it would save us all a lot of grief!

  • Agree with all that Rob, of course. But I prefer to see it as both funny and sad. And sometimes RadMatt is just flat-out funny, like when you take the piss out of him for something and he doesn’t even get that it’s a piss-take! It’s pretty cheap sport I know, but it’s irresistible – and maybe, just maybe, he’ll piss off if we keep it up. He might even resume his former persona, Mighty Matt, and go and haunt another Lefty blog. I hope not though – he’s a great diversion when things get slow at work.

    He was much harder to take during the Howard years, because all those things you say about politicians getting away with murder – quite literally in the case of BushBlairHoward – were happening then, but maybe a better time is coming when the memory of the country being run by the dumbasses, for the dumbasses will just fade away and the RadMatts of this world will start to look like the anachronistic relics that they are.

  • “I know it is a bit of an Americanism, don’t mean to use the term “liberal media” in a negative sense.”

    Nic, that’s fair enough I suppose but it’s a perilous business using Right-wing Americanisms in the blogosphere if you want your arguments to be taken seriously, especially when you are presenting a broadly conservative point of view.

  • Nic,

    I would not argue against the idea that the terrorists targeted sites that they knew would be populated with Westerners, which means that to some extent Westerners were targeted. As I said, I recognised it was entirely likely that some parts of Bolt’s claims would be correct – but that doesn’t make the rest of his assertions, or the general theme of his column (”An attacks on us all”), valid.

    What I argued against is presuming, when the attacks were still underway, when none of the terrorists had been identified, and when more Indian nationals than foreigners had been killed, that we can know the aims of the attack (and “to split India from the West” is an incredibly oversimplified statement that offers no real explanation of the attackers’ goals), that external support or direction was provided by anyone, let alone specifically by al Qaeda, that the attack was part of a global-scale war against Western “freedoms”, or that the attack in India had been planned because it was an “easier target” than the US, UK, etc.

    You seem to have taken one element of Bolt’s argument, pointed to its plausibility, and declared that this makes his entire argument valid. That is the same flawed reasoning Bolt himself engages in.

    P.S. I have to offer my apologies that I probably won’t be able to comment any more for a while. I would like to debate these issues, but I am at the start of a hectic week and life is going to take precedence for a while.

  • “Any comments which point out that Bolt should not be making this tragedy a “left v right” thing are met with abuse. How this man continues to be published is beyond me.”

    i’m not surprise he’s had to get more vicious. the post numbers on his blog seem to be down and lately the only threads that get high post numbers are those that divide people on very sensitive topics, like the mumbai attacks. and andy is running with it for maximum impact and posts.

  • actually it’s ironic that andy would accuse the left of being apologists for terrorists, espcially with him jumping the gun before the authorities have completed their investigations. i have a mate whose a detective and he always says the biggest hindrance to police investigations are the media when they want to broadcast more detail than the cops are willing to say publicly. in this light the rightard war mongers like andy who publicly screamed about the motivations for the terrorist attacks before the bodies were even cold are potentially muddying the waters, possibly deflecting attention from where it should be focus, and maybe even helping the terrorists. if he was smart he’d let the experts do their job instead of trying to play sherriff, especially when all he’s doing is trying to boost the reader comments on his blog by somehow making this about left vs right.

    this is just another case of ‘no experience, no opinion’ and another example of shithouse reporting that passes for opinion in this country. piers ackerman and greg sheridan have also caught the same brainwarping virus.

  • Tobias,

    I know you won’t be able to respond to this lengthy comment – but I resent your second last paragraph. You’ve taken a series of points from Bolt’s arguments. I’m responding by showing one of those points appears to be valid. The rest also seem to be arguable propositions.

    Bolt’s article is an opinion piece written during the time that the attacks were unfolding. There is nothing in his article that is clearly wrong and he clearly states that it is based on the information at hand. The conclusions that he draws, in an opinion piece, are standard opinions that have been articulated elsewhere (I linked to one example on your fourth point, but won’t link to any others in order to prevent the moderation system kicking in). I find it hard to argue that attack on a Jewish centre involving the apparent torture of Israeli citizens is not an attack on the West (your first point).

    Targeting Westerners can hardly be said to be done on the basis of a love of Westerners (your second point – clearly they hate Westerners, and Indians and anyone not subscribing to their particular brand of religion).

    Most of the rest of your points are variants on the how do we know they hate Westerners theme.

    Your last point bears repeating:
    “The only way these attacks will end is for all Muslims to love freedom and be horrified by the notion of jihad.”

    Yes – that seems a perfectly acceptable conclusion to draw from this. Clearly this attack appears to bear all the hallmarks of violent jihad. There is an outside possibility that it will end up being conducted by someone wholly unrelated to the ideology espoused by Al Qaeda, their associates and other like minded individuals – but somehow I doubt that.

  • Confessions – I doubt your analogy is valid. There is no way an Australian columnist can “muddy the waters” of the Indian investigation in a completely different country. Particular as he is not circulating information not otherwise available on the internet.

  • “There is no way an Australian columnist can “muddy the waters” of the Indian investigation”

    which is why i said rightard war mongers like bolt. and there are plenty of them and all saying pretty much the same shit. and before you dismiss the indian government being shunted in an unrelated direction, let me draw your attention to iraq in the wake of the sept 11 attacks.

    besides, do you agree that just throwing unsubstantiated statements around like he does in the absence of investigative evidence is appropriate? or justified? because that is the issue under discussion here.

  • Clearly this attack appears to bear all the hallmarks of violent jihad. There is an outside possibility that it will end up being conducted by someone wholly unrelated to the ideology espoused by Al Qaeda, their associates and other like minded individuals” – Nic
    …..or Kevin Bacon.

    Lashkar-e Tayyiba is looking a more likely suspect all the time.

    The self-absorbed ‘it was an attack on us/the west’ brigade might want to consider that this group has also launched attacks in Pakistan. Perhaps that’s an attack on ‘the west’ too?

  • I don’t understand the Kevin Bacon reference?

    Well, for one the Pakistani government is clearly Western leaning – I understood at the time that one of the aims was to either overthrow the government or as a form of blackmail to move it away from the West.

    I don’t see what is self-absorbed about fancying the notion that maybe an attack targetting Westerners is meant to be an attack targetting Westerners.

    I’d like to hear what commentators here consider could be an alternative explanation for the attacks?

  • “I’d like to hear what commentators here consider could be an alternative explanation for the attacks?”

    that’s kinda the point of this thread – when bolt was posting his silly rantings they were still finding bodies and accounting for tourists and other visitor. several days later the indians are now saying all the gunmen were pakistani which makes bolt’s rantings about an attack on the west seem curiously out of touch when you consider the history of war between these two nations. incidentally the indian home minister declares these attacks an attack on india which makes bolt look even more stupid. who the fuck does bolt think he is that he knows more than the indian government about an attack on INDIAN soil?

    oh and in The Oz today it is reported that pakistan is withdrawing troops from afghanistan war on terror to station along indian boundary. this is scary shit and bolt and his idealogocially blind fuckwit mates like timmy chanting about attacks on the west are not making things better or informing their readership correctly.

  • “There is an outside possibility that it will end up being conducted by someone wholly unrelated to the ideology espoused by Al Qaeda, their associates and other like minded individuals”………or Kevin Bacon

    ie. you’re covering your bases pretty well there – it’s Al-Qaeda!!…….or someone vaguely like them.

  • No, I’m saying that it appears likely that it is done by someone espousing the ideology common to Al Qaeda and their ilk – ie violent jihad. I doubt that this was an attack by the Pakistani government (as opposed to individual Pakistanis).

  • Well, for one the Pakistani government is clearly Western leaning – I understood at the time that one of the aims was to either overthrow the government or as a form of blackmail to move it away from the West.” – Nic

    Well if ‘the west’ is broadened to include just about everyone, even the Pakistan Govt, then I agree, it was an ‘attack on the west’.

    I don’t see what is self-absorbed about fancying the notion that maybe an attack targetting Westerners is meant to be an attack targetting Westerners.

    Yeah, just that 90% of the victims weren’t. That’s what I call “self-absorbed”.

    Thousands of Afghhans, Indians, Pakistani’s, Indonesians get killed in these kind of attacks, but a few westerners get killed and Bolty’s all shrill and stupid with ‘it’s an attack on us!‘ [cue: smelling salts]

    I’d suggest we all pitch in for a one-way ticket for Bolt and send him to Mumbai so he can tell the families of the Indian victims how really it was ‘an attack on us’.

  • agreed michael. timmy today also lists the other people it was an attack on….everyone it seems except india.

  • Michael – if you have not, the article I posted above addresses some of these points. It was clearly an attack on India. No one is denying that. However, it also was clearly an attack on western interests in India and one of the most westernised parts of India. How else do you explain the attack on the Jewish centre?

    The point made in the article is that, unlike the earlier bombings which were targeted at Indians alone – this is targeted at Westerns as well. Clearly that is a significant point that is worth adressing in an opinion piece?

  • “Clearly that is a significant point that is worth adressing in an opinion piece?”

    Nic, are you the full bottle or what? are you taking stock of what is being written, what has been written? you seem to want people to tell you who is responsible when the whole point of this thread is nailing the alarmists like andy and timmy for jumping the gun (like the expert national security experts they are – snicker) and posting all over their blogs that this is an attack on us.

    by the way you say nobody is disputing the attack on india, well timmy can’t even bring himself to mention india in his “TOO DIFFICULT FOR ACADEMICS” post. i’m tempted to think it’s cause he doesn’t know where mumbai is and is hedging his bets in case he gets shown up as a fool.

  • However, it also was clearly an attack on western interests in India and one of the most westernised parts of India.

    These also happen to be the parts of Mumbai most likely to attract India’s own elites.

  • Hooley dooley – here’s a whole blog article that discusses the attack in terms of India-Pakistan relations. Don’t these “Foreign Policy” wonks know it’s all about how people look upon us?

  • That’s madness Tobias.

  • “the rightard war mongers like andy who publicly screamed about the motivations for the terrorist attacks before the bodies were even cold are potentially muddying the waters, possibly deflecting attention from where it should be focus, and maybe even helping the terrorists.”

    Confessions. Please.

  • Dunno Tobias, looks like at least one (Muslim) academic might throw a spanner in your works:

    “we are witnessing the development of a political narrative that, while certainly retaining its more traditional factors surrounding Kashmir, is broadening to encompass the West and Israel. This much is visible in the language of Lashkar-e-Taiba’s senior figures. Hafiz Muhammad Sayeed, for example, now speaks of “Christians, Jews and Hindus” as the ‘enemies of Islam’. For him, Lashkar-e-Taiba’s aim is to ‘unfurl the green flag of Islam in Washington, Tel Aviv and New Delhi’. Precisely what Israel has to do with Kashmir is not abundantly clear. It seems Lashkar-e-Taiba’s circle is widening.”

    “And it is here, rather than in the particular methods of violence, that we may discern the impact of al-Qaeda, not as an organisation, but as a symbolic ideological force. Its most significant contribution has not been mass death, but a new way of formulating militant politics that transcends the local and parochial, and imbues it with a global resonance”

    http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/globalisation-of-terror-20081201-6oqm.html?page=-1

    Mmmmm, this global reasoning doesn’t quite tie in your local scenario.

  • Today’s Age features an opinion piece by Waleed Aly. I won’t link to it, in case the moderation system doesn’t like it. Key quotes (read the article for more):

    “The key development is the apparent targeting of foreigners, especially Westerners and Jews.”
    And
    “But an alternative interpretation is possible and even compelling: that we are witnessing the development of a political narrative that, while certainly retaining its more traditional factors surrounding Kashmir, is broadening to encompass the West and Israel. This much is visible in the language of Lashkar-e-Taiba’s senior figures. Hafiz Muhammad Sayeed, for example, now speaks of “Christians, Jews and Hindus” as the “enemies of Islam”. For him, Lashkar-e-Taiba’s aim is to “unfurl the green flag of Islam in Washington, Tel Aviv and New Delhi”. Precisely what Israel has to do with Kashmir is not abundantly clear. It seems Lashkar-e-Taiba’s circle is widening.”

    Golly, doesn’t Waleed Aly realise it is not about us in the West?

  • and still you don’t get it nic. thsi is now the 5th time you’ve had this explained to you: once by TZ and michael and 3 times by me.

    nobody is saying it’s NOT about the west. the key issue here is about bolt jumping the gun in pronouncing the reasons behind the mumbai attacks when there is no evidence to support his views. these attacks might very well be about the west. they could just as well be about something else, but only idiots get on their soapbox issuing reasons and theories when the authorities and expert investigations are yet to finish, or in bolt’s case even begin.

  • Damian Kingsbury is on the radio now stating that Westerners probably were not the prime target, after all the first attack was against locals at a train station. He reckons that the attack on Westerners was an ad hoc opportunity. Though he reckons the attack on the Jews was always intended.

    He said a load of other stuff as well indicating that this was a revenge attack and Westerners were not the prime target, however I was busy and not really listening.

  • an interesting interview with a leading counter terrorism expert:

    http://counterterrorismblog.org/2008/11/international_support_to_india.php

  • RobJ – that’s interesting. FWIW, my view is that the attack on the Jewish centre alone is enough to advance the argument that this was an attack on Western targets and therefore, as Waleed Aly and other suggested taking it a step above an attack on India alone and placing it firmly as part of a wider and more general anti-Western struggle.

    Confessions. Bolt is a columnist. That is his job – to get on the soap box. Are you saying Waleed Aly is an idiot? After all, he got on his “soapbox issuing reasons and theories when the authorities and expert investigations are yet to finish”. Or what about the columnist I linked to yesterday. Or every other columnist in the world who has discussed this?

    I get what you are saying, I just don’t agree with it.

  • I don’t really care, fact is is that it’s happened, fact is the bulk of the dead are Indians. Fact is confessions is spot on with her criticism of Bolt. Bolt is a racist, sensationalist prick. (I just made a post to that effect in the Left and Right agree thread)

    Bolt wont touch Catholic paedophiles but never misses an opportunity to stick the boot into Aborigines or Muslims. Had an Islamic school misbehaved like Xavier recently Bolt would have been all over it! The guy is a grade A prick IMHO and contributes NOTHING positive.

  • and still you don’t get it nic. thsi is now the 5th time you’ve had this explained to you: once by TZ and michael and 3 times by me.
    nobody is saying it’s NOT about the west. the key issue here is about bolt………..

    Yeah Nic! You just don’t get it. It’s all about finding ways to slag off Bolt. It’s not important that other people are saying similar things. All that counts is that we get to bitch about Bolt.

  • Thanks Rad, so we are just slagging him off.

    Interestingly, Bolt criticises Waleed Aly’s article and claims it misses the point. I think that strengthens my argument that criticising Bolt for saying something – when people who otherwise don’t agree with Bolt are also saying the same thing.

  • “Bolt is a columnist. That is his job – to get on the soap box.”

    well that depends on whether you think telling lies, distortions and misrepresentations and whipping up hysteria when no evidence exists counts as the job of a columnist. obviously you and rad think it does which tells me why you don’t in fact get the point of this thread.

    enough said.

  • Confessions. You’ve not addressed my point. Do you equally condemn Waleed Aly for speculating as to the intentions of the terrorists?

    Clearly you, Tobias and others do. Otherwise you are hypocrites.

    Please give me one example, just one, of any person suffering from hysteria after reading Bolt’s articles on the Mumbai terror attacks. While you are at it, give me one example of a lie in his article.

  • Thanks Rad, so we are just slagging him off

    Yes, that why people like Rob insist on adding the following when slagging him of;

    Bolt wont touch Catholic paedophiles but never misses an opportunity to stick the boot into Aborigines or Muslims. Had an Islamic school misbehaved like Xavier recently Bolt would have been all over it! The guy is a grade A prick IMHO and contributes NOTHING positive

    But I do have to laugh. Now it is a crime for an opinion columnist in a democratic country like Australia to voice his opinion on who he believes is responsible.

    the key issue here is about bolt jumping the gun in pronouncing the reasons behind the mumbai attacks when there is no evidence to support his views. these attacks might very well be about the west. they could just as well be about something else, but only idiots get on their soapbox issuing reasons and theories when the authorities and expert investigations are yet to finish, or in bolt’s case even begin.

    The way confessions goes on about it, you would think that Bolt was the minister for foreign affairs. I didn’t think a newspaper columnist could jump the gun.

  • Confessions. You’ve not addressed my point. Do you equally condemn Waleed Aly for speculating as to the intentions of the terrorists?
    Clearly you, Tobias and others do. Otherwise you are hypocrites

    Their silence is almost as deafening. Nic you have destroyed their argument in one swoop while also exposing their complete and utter hypocrisy. The fact that they won’t condemn Waleed Aly as they have bolt, just proves that they are more interested in any opportunity to slag off and bitch about Bolt than they are in rational debate.

    The reality is that the reason why they won’t condemn Waleed Aly is because he is not Bolt.

  • nic and Rad, the fact is Bolt is racist…….it is coming out now that the bombings were proberly NOT an attack on westerners but will Bolt appoligise? NO WAY, it takes a man to admit when his wrong. Have you ever noticed ( when you get your blinkers off ) Bolt only picks on minority groups? Says a lot about who he is, i guess.

  • it is coming out now that the bombings were proberly NOT an attack on westerners but will Bolt appoligise? NO WAY, it takes a man to admit when his wrong

    So should Waleed Aly apologise as well Geoff?
    BTW You admit that you are not certain if the west was a target or not, yet you expect Bolt to apologise, even though you don’t know for sure. Aren’t you making exactly the same kind of assumption that you criticise Bolt for making by demanding an apology of him?!
    The hypocrisy shown here is breathtaking.

  • OT: Sorry guys. Gazzam and others asked when I would put a post together about the Mitchell River Dam in Gippsland.

    …The proposal to construct a dam on the Mitchell River in Gippsland is short sighted….

  • Gavin,

    What “minority group” are you talking about? Are you aware that the terror attacks (which were not just “bombings”) specifically targetted foreigners – including, but not limited to the attack on the Jewish centre.

  • Sorry, that is not to Gavin at all but Geoff. No idea why I made that mistake.

  • FWIW, my view is that the attack on the Jewish centre alone is enough to advance the argument that this was an attack on Western targets and therefore” – Nic

    FFS.

    No one has suggested that this aspect was random. Of course they attacked western targets – that’s just a statement of the bleeding obvious. But that doesn’t mean it’s an “attack on the west”. I think that they were primarily a very handy means to an end.

    Again, to remind you, 90% of the targets were not ‘the west’.

    It’s like saying because they attacked the Taj Mahal and Oberei Hotels this was an ‘attack on hotels’.

  • Confessions. You’ve not addressed my point. Do you equally condemn Waleed Aly for speculating as to the intentions of the terrorists?

    Clearly you, Tobias and others do. Otherwise you are hypocrites” – Nic

    You wish.

    Aly is a lecturer in Global Terrorism Studies at ANU.

    This is his area of expertise.

    This is not the idle speculation of a pompous windbag, ala Bolt. And naturally it’s couched in far less shrill terms, with clear reasoning, than Bolts hysterical drivel.

  • Michael – Could have been an attack on bad room service? /sarcasm.

    If it was an “attack on the west” why weren’t targets like embassies or consulates included? what about western banks or businesses?

    They went for max body counts on ’soft’ targets. To scare people in the future (the whole meaning of terrorism) and to get the issue in western media. Not to destroy infrastructure as has previously occured.

  • Bolt calls Deepak Chopra an apologist for saying: “And we cannot go after the wrong people, as we did after 9/11, because then the whole collateral damage that occurs actually aggravates the situation… ”

    Chasing the actual perpetrators could actually make some sense. Deepak sounds more like a cop.

    I like to see the guilty arrested and brought to justice. That includes all the perpetrators, supporters, associates.

  • At all other times boltoid criticises the French and Germans for being lefty anti-American euro trash. For the purpose of this latest woeful ‘column’ they are as one with ‘us’. What a tool.

  • “Confessions. You’ve not addressed my point. Do you equally condemn Waleed Aly for speculating as to the intentions of the terrorists?”

    Nic, how do you define expert? or expertise?

    “Please give me one example, just one, of any person suffering from hysteria after reading Bolt’s articles on the Mumbai terror attacks.”

    have a read of some of the hysterical responses on his thread yesterday liv refer to. there are some very disturbed people there who seem to think the mumbai attacks are something to do with the left. i wonder why?

    “While you are at it, give me one example of a lie in his article.”

    his stupid comment suggesting the left will make apologia for mumbai attacks. when asked for evidence he comes up with blogs that do no such thing – see THRs comment above. just more lies from bolt.

  • HILARIOUS NONSENSE #1 -”nic and Rad, the fact is Bolt is racist…….it is coming out now that the bombings were proberly NOT an attack on westerners but will Bolt appoligise? NO WAY, it takes a man to admit when his wrong. Have you ever noticed ( when you get your blinkers off ) Bolt only picks on minority groups? Says a lot about who he is, i guess.”

    Well hell. He’s a global warming sceptic and a Stolen Generations denier. And a Liberal voter. And he wears daggy pink shirts. I’d say he’d be in the minority there himself. Proberly.

    HILARIOUS NONSENSE #2 – “No one has suggested that this aspect was random. Of course they attacked western targets – that’s just a statement of the bleeding obvious. But that doesn’t mean it’s an “attack on the west”.”

    Tee hee. Somebody quick. My sides are splitting. An attack on western targets is not an attack on the west. The more you type it the funnier it gets. An attack on western targets is not an attack on the west. An attack on western targets is not an attack on the west.An attack on western targets is not an attack on the west.An attack on western targets is not an attack on the west.

    I’m just cutting and pasting now but it’s still amusing.

    HILARIOUS NONSENSE #3 – “If it was an “attack on the west” why weren’t targets like embassies or consulates included? what about western banks or businesses?”

    Yes. A few hotels isn’t enough. Wait for the consulates and embassies. In fact, let’s wait for the American consulate and embassies to be attacked before we jump to conclusions about 9/11.

    Well done all three. Blinkered Boltish Bullshit.

  • Tee hee. Somebody quick. My sides are splitting. An attack on western targets is not an attack on the west. The more you type it the funnier it gets. An attack on western targets is not an attack on the west. An attack on western targets is not an attack on the west.An attack on western targets is not an attack on the west.An attack on western targets is not an attack on the west.” – D

    Yes, it’s a jihad on hotels too!

  • Confessions – how is Waleed Aly (even though he is an expert) not jumping the gun? What possible original research could he have done on the matter? How could he know what the police investigation is or is not turning up about the terrorists who perpetrated this crime? You cannot claim that Bolt is jumping the gun and then say Waleed Aly is not. Go on, either condemn Waleed Aly for speculating as to the causes of this without the full evidence or admit that you are wrong.

    As to Deeprak Chopra. Of course he is an idiot (he believes in aromatherapy, intelligent design and is an advocate of thinking happy thoughts to build happy molecules). Deeprak in his interviews on CNN over the weekend blamed the root causes of Mumbai on Islamic grievances against America and primarily blamed poverty. Anyone agreeing with Tobias article should blame him for speaking out of turn and without any evidence – not defending him (and he is not any form of expert). This just proves my point that people on this blog attack Bolt not because of what he says, but because it is him who is saying it.

    In anycase, if Deepak was talking about Iraq was not invaded because the West thought that it had anything to do with 9/11 (or are you forgetting the Bush Lied, People Died narrative?). No one went after the wrong targets because of 9/11 – (unless you are a truther – and think that the Taleban in Afghanistan’s sheltering of Osama had no connection to 9/11).

  • “Of course they attacked western targets – that’s just a statement of the bleeding obvious. But that doesn’t mean it’s an ‘attack on the west’ “.

    Hahahah, lmao, hahahaha.

    Gold.

  • Of course they attacked western targets – that’s just a statement of the bleeding obvious. But that doesn’t mean it’s an ‘attack on the west’

    LMAO. LOL. Oh Michael. You have really out done yourself with this piece of utter stupidity.

    Do you even read what you post before you hit the submit button.

  • “utter stupidity.”

    Hmm

    ““the Palestinians are not locked up in ghetto’s. They have every opportunity to turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other””

    Why are you still here you ignorant idiot troll? The statement above proves your ignorance and stupidity.

  • Timmeh is awesome

    Rad Pipper and Super Duper bring to this site the very best putdowns that Tim Blair has already told his audience of subservient fucksticks to find funny. Well done, guys.

  • Why are you still here you ignorant idiot troll? The statement above proves your ignorance and stupidity

    No Rob, your reaction to my statement proves your ideological bias and major short sightedness.

  • To whoever posted @9:22 am. Rad Pipper’s posted on this thread well before Tim linked to it and is a regular on this blog. Just because Tim agrees with him, doesn’t mean that Rad’s here because of that. Or don’t you read the blog comments?

  • Which country were you referring to you ignoramus?

    “They have every opportunity to turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other”

    You are so stupid you think Palestinians have a country. What a retard!

    “Palestinians are not locked up in ghetto’s”

    You are completely unaware that Israel decides who comes in and out of Gaza and the West Bank!

    You are an ignorant troll.

  • Timmeh is awesome

    I’m aware that Rad scatters dim-witted misanthropy on these threads with regularity. But it’s uncanny that those two picked up on precisely the same passage that Blair did in his morning bowel motion, don’t you think? If I didn’t know better, I’d swear that those two had no imagination, no capacity for independent thought, and nothing better to do with their lives than troll – just like 99% of Blair’s other fanboys.

  • You are completely unaware that Israel decides who comes in and out of Gaza and the West Bank!

    Rob Palestine is not land locked by Israel. They do have other borders that neighbour other countries.

    My point was that Hamas’ deep rooted hatred and ambition to annihilate Israel prevents the people of Palestine from moving forward and building a nation that is prosperous.

    Now Rob, stop changing the topic. My comment was in another thread.

  • “A plan by Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) that had been in the pipelines for several months – even though official policy was to ditch it – saw what was to be a low-profile attack in Kashmir turn into the massive attacks on Mumbai last week.

    The original plan was highjacked by the Laskar-e-Taiba (LET), a Pakistani militant group that generally focussed on the Kashmir struggle, and al-Qaeda, resulting in the deaths of nearly 200 people in Mumbai as groups of militants sprayed bullets and hand grenades at hotels, restaurants and train stations, as well as a Jewish community center.

    A US State Department official categorically mentioned that Pakistan’s “smoking gun” could turn the US’s relations with Pakistan sour. The one militant captured – several were killed – is reported to have been a Pakistani trained by the LET.

    Asia Times Online investigations reveal that several things went wrong within the ISI, which resulted in the Mumbai attacks.

    The only active forward sections were left in the southern port city of Karachi, and the former Muzzafarabad sections were sent there. The PNS Iqbal (a naval commando unit) was the main outlet for militants to be given training and through deserted points they were launched into the Arabian sea and on into the Indian region of Gujarat.

    The most important asset of the ISI, the Laskhar-e-Taiba (LET), was split after 9/11. Several of its top-ranking commanders and office bearers joined hands with al-Qaeda militants. A millionaire Karachi-based businessman, Arif Qasmani, who was a major donor for ISI-sponsored LET operations in India, was arrested for playing a double game – he was accused of working with the ISI while also sending money to Pakistan’s South Waziristan tribal area for the purchase of arms and ammunition for al-Qaeda militants.

    The network of the Harkat-ul-Jihad-al-Islami, which was a major supporter of the ISI in the whole region, especially in Bangladesh, was shattered and fell into the hands of al-Qaeda when Maulana Ilyas Kashmiri, chief of Harkat, a hero of the armed struggle in Kashmir who had spent two years in an Indian jail, was arrested by Pakistani security forces in January 2004. He was suspected of having links to suicide bombers who rammed their vehicles into then-president General Pervez Musharraf’s convoy on December 25, 2003.

    He was released after 30 days and cleared of all suspicion, but he was profoundly affected by the experience and abandoned his struggle for Kashmir’s independence and moved to the North Waziristan tribal area with his family. His switch from the Kashmiri struggle to the Afghan resistance was an authentic religious instruction to those in the camps in Kashmir to move to support Afghanistan’s armed struggle against foreign forces. Hundreds of Pakistani jihadis established a small training camp in the area.

    Almost simultaneously, Harkat’s Bangladesh network disconnected itself from the ISI and moved closer to al-Qaeda. That was the beginning of the problem which makes the Mumbai attack a very complex story.


    Several low-profile attacks were carried out in various parts of India as a rehearsal and Indian security agencies still have no idea who was behind them. Nevertheless, al-Qaeda was not yet prepared for any bigger moves, like the Mumbai attacks.

    Under directives from Pakistan’s army chief, General Ashfaq Kiani, who was then director general (DG) of the ISI, a low-profile plan was prepared to support Kashmiri militancy. That was normal, even in light of the peace process with India. Although Pakistan had closed down its major operations, it still provided some support to the militants so that the Kashmiri movement would not die down completely.

    After Kiani was promoted to chief of army staff, Lieutenant General Nadeem Taj was placed as DG of the ISI. The external section under him routinely executed the plan of Kiani and trained a few dozen LET militants near Mangla Dam (near the capital Islamabad). They were sent by sea to Gujrat, from where they had to travel to Kashmir to carry out operations.

    Meanwhile, a major reshuffle in the ISI two months ago officially shelved this low-key plan as the country’s whole focus had shifted towards Pakistan’s tribal areas. The director of the external wing was also changed, placing the “game” in the hands of a low-level ISI forward section head (a major) and the LET’s commander-in-chief, Zakiur Rahman.

    Zakiur was in Karachi for two months to personally oversee the plan. However, the militant networks in India and Bangladesh comprising the Harkat, which were now in al-Qaeda’s hands, tailored some changes. Instead of Kashmir, they planned to attack Mumbai, using their existent local networks, with Westerners and the Jewish community center as targets.

    Zakiur and the ISI’s forward section in Karachi, completely disconnected from the top brass, approved the plan under which more than 10 men took Mumbai hostage for nearly three days and successfully established a reign of terror.

    Pipes continued, “They [militants] are the believers of conspiracy theories and therefore they would have seen the Jewish center [attacked in Mumbai] as some sort of influence in the region and that’s why they chose to target it, but on the other hand they got immense international attention which they could not have acquired if they would have just attacked local targets.”

    - Asia Times http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/JL02Df05.html

  • If I didn’t know better, I’d swear that those two had no imagination, no capacity for independent thought, and nothing better to do with their lives than troll – just like 99% of Blair’s other fanboys

    Oh you mean like all of those on this threat attacking bolt for voicing his opinion as an opinion newspaper columnist?! Do you also mean like those on this threat that refuse to apply their same warped standards to other people like Waleed Aly?!

  • @9:34 – Daics pointed out how amusing that post was last night. Everyone can see what a stupid comment it is. The comment is the culmination of a series of comments in which Rad participated. I don’t see how, other than in your own imagination, anyone has done anything wrong.

    Of course, maybe you would be better off trying to show why that comment is not the height of stupidity rather than attacking Rad for no reason.

  • Timmeh is awesome
    3 December, 2008 at 9:34 am

    I am just wondering if this person is really Michael. I don’t think that anyone has posted under this name before and this person seems to be taking it all so personally.

    (Timmeh is awesome) are you Michael?

  • “Now it is a crime for an opinion columnist in a democratic country like Australia to voice his opinion on who he believes is responsible.”

    Now, you silly little ignoramus, who said that it was a crime for your hero Bolt to spout his bigotted stupid opinions? That’s right, it was you, another one of your lies.

  • “You cannot claim that Bolt is jumping the gun and then say Waleed Aly is not.”

    Nic: look at when bolt’s article was written in comparison to the attacks. now look at when aly’s article was written. consider how much time had elapsed between the two and consider how much more information aly (all of us even) had when waleed aly wrote his article.

    also consider how much more informed generally aly’s peice is. he is able to discuss the mumbai attacks in the context of the broader political landscape in the region, that there have been 600 people killed in mumbai attacks over the last 15 years. bolt just simplifies everything, offering opinions without qualification about what the attacks mean. and this as a talking point about who is responsible: “The names of these outfits may shift but it’s just a rebadging of the same kind of people inspired by the same ideology.” what does this tell anybody about the mumbai attacks?

    “What possible original research could he have done on the matter? ”

    well someone who has published in the area for a start. also someone who works in a research facility that focus on global terrorism. i know you despeerately want to see bolt in a more positive light than waleed aly but your seriously stretching to see any comparison in expertise between the 2. it is obvious from aly’s article that he has it in spades over andy. it’s a shame you can’t see this too.

  • “Nic: look at when bolt’s article was written in comparison to the attacks.”

    Don’t waste your time confessions.

  • Now, you silly little ignoramus, who said that it was a crime for your hero Bolt to spout his bigotted stupid opinions? That’s right, it was you, another one of your lies

    Now stop it Rob. You are just trying way too hard with the mock outrage and the “Lies” tag.

    I was being sarcastic you fool.

    But my point was that you are attacking bolt for simply voicing his opinion. Something which we can all do in a free, democratic country.

    You do not win an argument by playing the victim.

  • Timmeh is awesome

    Oh you mean like all of those on this threat attacking bolt for voicing his opinion as an opinion newspaper columnist?!

    As far as I’m concerned, Tim’s opinion about Mumbai – formulated in the safety of Kippax Street, while snugly tucked up in his cocoon of ignorance – isn’t worth a pinch of crap.

    Blair himself is not that important. He’s a talentless, sub-O’Rourke shit-stirrer who wouldn’t get a job writing anything outside the circulation-shedding sheltered workshop that is News International’s Australian branch office.

    What stuns me is that you guys allow him to make a comfortable living by selling your own stupidity and prejudice back to you. Whatever floats your boat, I guess. Just don’t insult anyone’s intelligence by suggesting that you aren’t allowing him to do your thinking for you when you run his lines on these threads.

    Ciao, blairbots.

  • agreed RobJ. this is now the 6th time Nic has been told what this thread is about.

    ya live n learn!

  • This is a pretty shitty thread. People are arguing about side-issues without defining their terms – again. The result is that some people are backing themselves into corners and overstating their criticisms of Bolt’s fatuous bullshit, leaving themselves wide open to attack by people like Nic and Daics and (God forbid) RadMatt.

    Of course this is not “an attack on the West”, whatever the hell that means. It is an attack on the infidel, as “the lesser jihad” has always been, since the first few centuries of Islam’s existence. Islam, like Christianity, has always been a proselytising religion and at various times in their histories, both religions have attempted to convert people by force. These are vicious, narrow-minded, unworldly people who are deeply offended by those who do not share their religious sensibilities, and feel themselves authorised by God to destroy the offenders. No-one is considered an innocent victim in these attacks, not even children or old people, because they are all complicit in the offending behaviour and all are vile and unclean in the sight of God.

    The behaviour of these terrorists, as we call them today, is identical to that of the medieval crusaders who would storm a town and then proceed to slaughter every occupant of it. They had a dual purpose – to wipe out as many infidels as possible, and to intimidate the others into submitting to their authority, and perhaps even converting to the One True Faith. They wanted to send a message, just as these bastards want to do today, albeit on a rather bigger stage.

    The to-ing and fro-ing on this thread about “the West” needs to be put in this context, then maybe we can start having a sensible discussion.

    As long as RadMatt stays out of it.

  • Confessions – I don’t doubt that Waleed Aly’s article is good. That is why I suggested it and quoted approvingly from it (I note that there is now a link to it before my comment, but that may have been awaiting moderation when I posted). However, I quote from you above:

    “actually it’s ironic that andy would accuse the left of being apologists for terrorists, espcially with him jumping the gun before the authorities have completed their investigations.”

    Now then. Did Waleed’s piece come before the authorities have completed their investigations? Simple yes or no answer. If yes, either condemn him or admit that you are biased against Bolt.

    To clarify, if anyone has any doubt – I am saying that no-one should be condemned for the mere fact of writing an article on this topic.

    Waleed is only one example among, I have no doubt, 1000+ opinion pieces written on this attack. Either condemn them all for jumping the gun or don’t pick out Bolt.

    In the end, that is all this blogpost is about. Criticising Bolt for writing an opinion piece before all the details are known. If you adopt that view, then you have to say no opinion piece on any breaking news story should ever be published.

  • @10:12 am. Don’t you mean Bolt, not Blair?

  • “Now stop it Rob. You are just trying way too hard with the mock outrage and the “Lies” tag.

    I was being sarcastic you fool. ”

    Now where have I heard that before? That’s right the last time Rad was sticking up for dishonesty. Rad you are a liar, a hypocrite and an idiot, you are a troll by default.

    Where was the sarcasm tag, do you expect others to read your mind? You’re an idiot.

    “But my point was that you are attacking bolt for simply voicing his opinion.”

    You made a claim that others were suggesting that was a crime, you got caught out (again) so you use your stock standard lie that you were being sarcastic.

    “You do not win an argument by playing the victim.”

    Errrrr, you lose every argument, I never felt like a victim. That I wont bother debating you is just an indication of time constraints ie I don’t have time to waste on loser, lying trolls.

  • “Now then. Did Waleed’s piece come before the authorities have completed their investigations? ”

    no, if the indian government statements are to be beleived.

    “December 01, 2008 India says all Mumbai terrorists were Pakistani” (source: The Oz newspaper).

    now nic, please stop trying to play silly gotcha games in a desperate attempt to justify the ignorant and bigoted rantings of bolt.

  • HI TIM,

    Nice to see you still visit. How is the carpooling going since you lost your license?

    I did not know that a comment posted HAD to relfect the entire site? Based on that rule you open yourself up to more pwning.

  • Confessions. You don’t get around someone disagreeing with you by saying that they are missing the point of the thread. I know very well the point of this thread. I understand your arguments. They are just wrong. I have explained why this blogpost and your comments are wrong – multiple times.

  • I don’t understand people getting angry with RadMatt. Just laugh at him. He is a dopey clown, a jumped-up schoolkid with no awareness of how out of his depth he is. That’s very funny, not something to get all serious about.

  • confessions@10:26, you know that the investigations are on-going and will continue for a long time. If in doubt, you can ask your detective friend how long an investigation into an incident of this magnitude will take.

    Again. Either Waleed Aly was jumping the gun or not. Which is it?

  • Where was the sarcasm tag, do you expect others to read your mind? You’re an idiot.

    Get over yourself rob. You are now being pathetic. Deal with debating the topic and stop with playing the victim, it get old after a while.

    You made a claim that others were suggesting that was a crime, you got caught out (again) so you use your stock standard lie that you were being sarcastic.

    No I didn’t. I don’t believe for a second that you believed that I was being literal with my comment. If you did, then you are a fool.

    Errrrr, you lose every argument, I never felt like a victim

    You are playing the victim Rob by pretending to take the 100% literal meaning of my comment and then claimed that someone lied to you.

    Now if you have problems understanding the debate, then maybe you should stay in the playpen.

  • Dam Buster – Tim’s highlighted the comment that encapsulates this thread rather nicely.

    FWIW, this blog has always had trouble with reflections. Any chance the photo will get updated to properly “reflect” grade 11 physics?

  • Nic, you could be forgiven for thinking this is all about people questioning Bolt’s right to express an opinion, but the fact is it’s not. It’s about the particular opinions he has expressed, and the background of similarly hysterical, ill-informed and subtly racist opinions he has expressed in the past. His comments can never be taken in isolation, nor can they be separated from the vileness of his fans.

  • “Nice to see you still visit. ”

    he linked to this thread the other day probably hoping to incite another of his playground blog wars. it went unmentioned by anyone here and none of his sheep strayed from their paddock. you can always tell when timmy is suffering relevence deprivation syndrome cuase he starts trying to find fault with individual comments rather than the original post itself.

  • Thank you Bob, some sense shed on this thread at last…

    There’s no doubt that Bolt jumped the gun with his article and probably shouldn’t have — although it is also true that he’s not the only writer around to have done so. As it happens he’s possibly going to be proven to be correct with most, if not all of his assumptions, although that still doesn’t excuse him leaping in before any evidence is presented….But then again, I suppose he is an ‘opinion’ columnist so I guess he’s paid to have an opinion.

    It seems, from comments reportedly made by the captured terrorist that Israelis were a specific target along with Westerners, particularly British and American tourists, but of course this sort of attack is mainly an assault on the country in which it takes place, not only in terms of the numbers of locals killed and injured, which are almost always considerably higher than tourists, but also for the political, social and infrastructure damage that is caused.

  • “You are playing the victim Rob by pretending to take the 100%”

    Yes which is why I’m openly taking the piss out of you. I’m deriding your utter ignorance of the Israeli/Palestinian situation. I’m highlighting your lies and inconsistencies, the best thing is, you do all the hard work with your idiotic posts littered with ignorance and lies.

    If playing the victim means you’ve been utterly discredited, shown to be a filthy bigoted ignorant, liar then I’m happy to pretend to be the victim.

    I realise this will go straight over your head because regardless of your ‘fantastic education’ you consistently prove to us all what a simpleton you really are.

  • “Again. Either Waleed Aly was jumping the gun or not. Which is it?”

    This comes back to the ‘No experience, No opinion’ thread.

    Waleed Aly is an expert in this area, Bolt is not.

    Waleeds opinion is based on actual knowledge in his area of expertise, whereas Bolts opinion is based on the fact that he always believes the worst of Muslims, and likes to whip up racist sentiment against them.

    By Bolts own logic, as applied to Maxine Mckew, he himself has no right to have an opinion on this topic, as he is neither a Muslim nor a terrorism expert.

  • If playing the victim means you’ve been utterly discredited, shown to be a filthy bigoted ignorant, liar then I’m happy to pretend to be the victim

    When all else fails, resort to abuse. Isn’t that right Rob!

    Next time Rob, a little less abuse might help you keep up with the debate.

  • DbD – the point I was making goes back to confessions definition of jumping the gun and his use of his detective friend as an example why people should not comment until the investigation is over. On the specifics of this case, Waleed Aly has no more experience than any other person. His experience is not relevant to whether he jumped the gun or not.

  • “Waleed Aly is an expert in this area, Bolt is not.”

    Yeah, but Aly is a Muslim and a bit dark skinned and Bolt is a white bigot. Bolt must be right and Ali must be wrong, even if they say the same thing (To a Boltard of course).

  • “Next time Rob, a little less abuse might help you keep up with the debate.”

    I don’t debate with you, you’re an idiot, I just take the piss out of you, I realise you can’t tell the difference being an ignorant twat but it’s amusing for me.

  • Gavin M,

    You reckon that “It seems, from comments reportedly made by the captured terrorist that Israelis were a specific target along with Westerners”

    No, the Israeli consulate was not attacked. Nor any other Israeli national site.

    A Jewish centre was targeted and attacked.

    No representaives of Israel were there. But plenty of Jews were.

    And to be sure, one of them admitted they did pre-attack reconnaisance beforehand.

  • RobJ:

    “Yeah, but Aly is a Muslim and a bit dark skinned and Bolt is a white bigot. Bolt must be right and Ali must be wrong, even if they say the same thing (To a Boltard of course).”

    Who has said anything of the sort?

  • Super,

    Other than the mistaken use Israeli for Jewish – what is wrong with the comment? The Jewish people attacked were all Westerners, from the US and Mexico, it appears. The Jewish centre was clearly a Western target.

  • I don’t debate with you, you’re an idiot, I just take the piss out of you, I realise you can’t tell the difference being an ignorant twat but it’s amusing for me.

    Given the amount of venom in your abuse, it doesn’t look like you are having all that much fun. Unless of course you enjoy abusing people?!

    Yeah, but Aly is a Muslim and a bit dark skinned and Bolt is a white bigot. Bolt must be right and Ali must be wrong, even if they say the same thing (To a Boltard of course).

    OMG rob. What has the colour of someone’s skin got to do with anything? You are the only person talking about the race of the person writing the opinion piece. That suggests that you may be the racist bigot.

  • Super,

    Please see this link:

    http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/244025,mumbai-terrorists-targeted-israelis-to-avenge-atrocities.html

    Perhaps it was released a little soon after the attack, but I assumed that the Israeli embassy would have been aware of the victims..

  • “Unless of course you enjoy abusing people?!”

    I enjoy abusing willfully ignorant twats.

    “OMG rob. What has the colour of someone’s skin got to do with anything? You are the only person talking about the race of the person writing the opinion piece. That suggests that you may be the racist bigot”

    Uhhh sarcasm??! LOL

  • “Unless of course you enjoy abusing people?!”

    I enjoy abusing willfully ignorant twats.

    “OMG rob. What has the colour of someone’s skin got to do with anything? You are the only person talking about the race of the person writing the opinion piece. That suggests that you may be the racist bigot”

    Uhhh sarcasm??! LOL

  • Er, RobJ – I didn’t see the sarcasm in that either. You seemed to suggest that people who agree with Bolt are racist.

  • HI TIM,
    Nice to see you still visit. How is the carpooling going since you lost your license?
    ” – DBP

    Timmy was here? Which is his thought provoking contribution?

  • Uhhh sarcasm??! LOL

    OK, so if anyone else uses sarcasm they are liars and you play the victim for all it’s worth but if you use sarcasm it is OK.

    Poor Rob, your credibility just keeps on rock bottoming. It’s almost too painful to watch.

  • On the specifics of this case, Waleed Aly has no more experience than any other person” – Nic,

    You’re kidding, right?

    Aly is commenting within his area of expertise. An informed, rational and considered contribution which adds to our knowledge. He hasn’t written a judge-jury-executioner piece.

  • Michael – I’m refering to the specifics of what occurred in the incident (this is what Confessions suggested that Bolt was jumping the gun on). Being the whos, whats and wheres of the matter. Maybe he has more knowledge on the whys than others – but only if he has the other facts correct.

    Unless he has contacts in the Mumbai police force, he knows no more of this than Bolt.

    Which, again, is why I am saying if you condemn Bolt for jumping the gun you have to condemn Aly for doing the same (and any other person who has commented on this matter).

  • RadMatt, please PLEASE for the love of God, don’t start attacking anyone else’s credibility… I couldn’t bear to watch the carnage you’ll provoke…. Remember, I really do love you.

  • Give it up Nic, it’s not important.

  • Nic,

    I agree with you on the matter. Was just showing a particular point.

  • “You seemed to suggest that people who agree with Bolt are racist.”

    Most are Nic.

    Do you ever read any of the comments on his blog?

    There are some very unpleasant characters posting there. The failure of his moderators to SNIP, or even caution these people shows a certain tolerance for racism, if not outrght approval.

  • Dbd – I don’t think that is right at all. Many people agree with Bolt on a lot of topics but aren’t racist. Take Jeremy, he appears to agree with Bolt on most thing(*) and is not racist.

    Super – apologies.
    Badbob – I agree the point is laboured but I was responding to Michael’s comments. I will not beat it into the ground any further.

    (*) humour, if anyone doesn’t read his blog.

  • Super,

    Just to let you know, I have responded to you somewhere above re my reference to Israelis with a link, but its still with the moderators..

  • GavinM, I’m seeing your comment now (@11:17).

  • Not sure if this has been spoken about here yet, but a really interesting op-ed in last Friday’s Washington Post that sheds some light on the simple things 4 simple minds bath of B1 ‘n’ B2

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/28/AR2008112802242.html

    See particularly the para starting ‘I learned in Iraq…’

  • Michael – TIM did a post about your comment on here from yesterday afternoon at about 3:39pm.

    Tim is a small man. He needs to feel big by attacking one thing mentioned in a comment thread*. He of course does not mention the context or even argue against the premise of the original post.

    * note that TIM would not know what a long thread looks like anymore since not many people appear to comment on his site.

  • Tim would not allow long posts as it would alienate his “readers”.

  • Dam, I’m not sure if a long thread is a sign of quality of a blog. For instance, if Rad and myself stopped posting here – we’d have almost no comments.

  • Nic – true. quantity does not necessarily equal quality. Sadly Tim’s site has been lacking in both.

  • If RadMatt stopped posting this blog would be a sadder place. Smarter, but sadder.

  • Uglier and safer maybe? But I guess that’s a question of personal taste.

  • But for an Australian writer to boil all of this down to a global conflict between two irreoncilable groups – “the West” and Islam – is foolish.

    Um.. Why?

    Do you know what is really foolish?

    Resisting the concept that you – we – have an enemy that sees everything different to itself as a threat to be negated or an opponent to be attacked in its clearly-stated goal of world domination, and that although Hinduism is a large obstacle to this goal in India, western culture is a larger and more significant obstacle and thus is likely to receive greater efforts focussed on overthrowing it than is Hinduism – as has been demonstrated repeatedly over the last several decades.

    Oh and unlike Andrew Bolt whose intellect you so denigrate, I am not an Australian in Melbourne, I am an Australian in a Muslim country and have spent the last decade studying Islam and Asian cultures.

    Oh, and how strange, I agree with Andrew Bolt and think that you are moronic. How could that be – when you claim to be so much more enlightened than he is?

    What are your qualifications relevant to issues like this one?

    You’re as Australian as Andrew Bolt, you’re as much located in Australia as he is, and you’re NOT a journalist?

    Well done. Fantastic way to play to your strengths.

  • Dam Buster of Preston
    3 December, 2008 at 1:06 pm
    Michael – TIM did a post about your comment on here from yesterday afternoon at about 3:39pm.

    Tim is a small man. He needs to feel big by attacking one thing mentioned in a comment thread*. He of course does not mention the context or even argue against the premise of the original post.

    * note that TIM would not know what a long thread looks like anymore since not many people appear to comment on his site.

    Nic
    3 December, 2008 at 1:11 pm
    Dam, I’m not sure if a long thread is a sign of quality of a blog. For instance, if Rad and myself stopped posting here – we’d have almost no comments.

    Hahahahahahaha.. You people are fucking morons.

  • “HI TIM,

    Nice to see you still visit. How is the carpooling going since you lost your license?”

    lol!! timmy is preparing for the day he can start driving again and is coveting not just an ordinary prius but a streeeeetch prius.

    http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/priiiiiius/

  • Michael
    29 November, 2008 at 8:51 am

    Sorry Bolty, but as incredibly important as we westerners are, maybe western targets in India were just a means to an end for the attackers.

    So.. You admit that Andrew Bolt is more than likely correct on the point on which the original post derided him – that attacks on Western targets in India (as well as Indian targets) are a sign of inability to attack targets IN the West?

    Or do you not even need to have a coherent point except that you are smarter than Andrew Bolt and he is wrong whether or not you can coherently present a case as to why either of those contentions are accurate?

    Liv
    1 December, 2008 at 10:20 am

    His post today is appalling – smearing the “left” and planting a seed in the minds of his readers by insinuating that the “left” are going to apologise for/support the Mumbai terrorists :

    Aaaaaand that would be because “the left” has spent the last seven years declaring that every single terrorist attack that occurs is a result of western countries’ foreign policy. You’ve yet to convincingly demonstrate how blaming the victims does not constitute tacit support for the perpetrators.

    “Before some in the Left prepare their standard apologias, arguments of moral relativism or appeals for negotations, consider this about the Mumbai terrorists”…..

    Then anyone who points out “that’s a bit rough” gets slammed by his disciples …”But you love David Hicks !!! Therefore you love the Mumbai terrorists !! You drink Kool Aid!!”

    Um you people demonstrated quite clearly your appreciation for Hicks’ dedication to his cause. Are you taking offence simply at the fact that we noticed this? Or that we fail to attribute to your stances on all these issues the correct level of nuance and sophistication that you assume accompanies standard liberal cookie-cutter non-arguments? In fact do you have a point at all that you wish to make here?

    Someone asked Bolt to provide proof that the “left” support terrorism …and he has put up a list of links in response.

    Hm, okay; so he was challenged on a contention that he made – then, he provided evidence to support the contention that was challenged. In the grown-up world that would be a fairly standard method of holding a “debate” or “conversation.”

    I suspect they are links to radical conspiracy sites ?

    You suspect? In other words you didn’t read them, nor did you vet the information contained within them, yet you are still criticizing Bolt for his original assertion, in support of which he posted said links in the first place? Okay then.

    Or random individuals not necessarily supporting the terrorists but asking for calm (which Bolt interprets as “support.”)

    Yeah. Or, alternatively, it could actually be links where leftists have attributed terrorist attacks to faults on the part of those who were attacked, as the left do every single time a terrorist attack occurs. Who knows? Certainly not you – because you haven’t bothered to read the information before forming an argument.

    Any comments which point out that Bolt should not be making this tragedy a “left v right” thing are met with abuse.

    You mean any comments ACCUSING Bolt of making this tragedy a “left vs. right thing” are met with rebuke. That would probably be due to the fact that the left were the first to go on the offence against the right at the beginning of the current cycle of terrorism in opposition to the methods the right-leaning leadership of the day employed to counter that terrorism, and you continue to do so now. In simple terms, you started it, you deal with it.

    How this man continues to be published is beyond me.

    Since there is a 99.9% chance that you yourself are not published, I doubt that statement would surprise anyone.

  • OMG! a fuckwit douchebag has flown in. how’s the paddock where you are sheep?

  • “I am not an Australian in Melbourne, I am an Australian in a Muslim country”

    and therefore i know everything there is to know about….everything!

    do you have anything to contribute at all, or are you just trolling before mummy calls you for dinner?

  • “Um you people demonstrated quite clearly your appreciation for Hicks’ dedication to his cause. ”

    really? um how so?

    “Aaaaaand that would be because “the left” has spent the last seven years declaring that every single terrorist attack that occurs is a result of western countries’ foreign policy.”

    really? proof please.

    “and you’re NOT a journalist?”

    neither is bolt, but don’t let facts get in the way of a pre-dinner rant.

    “That would probably be due to the fact that the left were the first to go on the offence against the right at the beginning of the current cycle of terrorism”

    okaaaay. as i recall it terrorist attacks are generally met with outrage across the board. but please, do that bolt thing where everything, i mean EVERYTHING is about left and right. it’s not as if we haven’t seen it before (/sarcasm).

    “Since there is a 99.9% chance that you yourself are not published, I doubt that statement would surprise anyone.”

    and you know this…..how? actually more to the point, this is relevant….how?

    oh! isn’t that mummy calling you for dinner. run along kiddo and thanks for dropping by. your contribution has been….interesting. lol!!!

  • My first and last visit here.

    Bitching about other columnists helps who/what/where?

    Instructive? – F
    Thought provoking? – F
    Interesting? – F
    Mature? – F

    Is gossip, backbiting and bitching all any of you are good for?

  • So.. You admit that Andrew Bolt is more than likely correct on the point on which the original post derided him – that attacks on Western targets in India (as well as Indian targets) are a sign of inability to attack targets IN the West?” – DJ Douche

    No DJ.

    If that was what I’d meant, I’d have said just that.

    I was trying to make what I thought was a pretty straigforward point – that the fact of westrners being targetted doesn’t mean that the overall aim was “an attack on the west” as Bolt stupidly contended. It’s the difference between strategy and aim. Is that so hard to understand?

    But even those who have attempted to deride this simple observation have tacitly aknowledged it in their disagreement. They don’t take the utterly simplistic position that the attacks were ‘an attack on Westerners in Mumbai’, but extrapolate from the specifics – that it was an ‘attack on the west’.

  • Nanna, did you perform the same assessment (sic) on Andrew’s blog too?

  • “Is gossip, backbiting and bitching all any of you are good for?”

    no. we’re also good for humour. i give you exhibits radp and douchebag.

  • Nana J……….Lol, another reject from Bolts’ blog.

    Here’s my assessment of Andys’ blog ( which seems to be getting less responces these days )

    Instuctive…….failed
    Thought provoking……..failed
    Interesting………..failed
    Mature…………failed

  • Talking about Andy, it’s nearly time for him to go on leave.
    Now whats a bet he will plant something in the flocks’ mind that he might not be back next year and there will be the sheep flocking to his blog crying and begging for him to stay on.
    Just see how far off i am…….he just cries out to feel wanted.

  • “Bitching about other columnists helps who/what/where?”

    Your whinging about our bitching helps who/what/where?

    The Blog is called – “The Blair/Bolt Watch Project” Did you expect to find praise for these bigots? Why did you bother visiting? Just to whinge?

  • “Bitching about other columnists helps who/what/where?”

    Your whinging about our bitching helps who/what/where?

    The Blog is called – “The Blair/Bolt Watch Project” Did you expect to find praise for these bigots? Why did you bother visiting? Just to whinge?

  • “Here’s my assessment of Andys’ blog ( which seems to be getting less responces these days )

    Instuctive…….failed
    Thought provoking……..failed
    Interesting………..failed
    Mature…………failed”

    Dog whistling – PASS
    Bigotry – PASS
    Inability to do simple arithmetic – PASS
    Inability to use a spell checker even though he’s paid to write – PASS
    Ridiculously biased moderation – A+++++

  • Confessions showns her true lack of interlect when it comes to rational debate.

    Here are a few of confession’a attempts at inteligent debate;

    OMG! a fuckwit douchebag has flown in. how’s the paddock where you are sheep?
    Confessions

    And then there is this attempt at glory when confronted with rational debate from DJ;

    do you have anything to contribute at all, or are you just trolling before mummy calls you for dinner?
    Confessions

    And;
    neither is bolt, but don’t let facts get in the way of a pre-dinner rant.
    Confessions

    LMAO – given the comments abouve, it is you confessions that is caught in a rather childish a pre-dinner rant

    that the fact of westrners being targetted doesn’t mean that the overall aim was “an attack on the west”
    Michael

    OMG – LMAO you never learn Michael.

  • Here’s my assessment of Andys’ blog ( which seems to be getting less responces these days )

    LOL You wish. Let me guess Rob! You still can’t stop yourself from visiting his blog site?!

    Instuctive…….failed
    Thought provoking……..failed
    Interesting………..failed
    Mature…………failed”
    Dog whistling – PASS
    Bigotry – PASS
    Inability to do simple arithmetic – PASS
    Inability to use a spell checker even though he’s paid to write – PASS
    Ridiculously biased moderation – A+++++

    Given your opinion of Bolt’s blog you still can’t stop yourself from reading his blog site. What does that say about you?
    Truly pathetic!

  • What’s that foul smell?

  • What’s that foul smell?

    That would be your upper lip Rob.

  • that the fact of westrners being targetted doesn’t mean that the overall aim was “an attack on the west”
    - Michael

    OMG – LMAO you never learn Michael.” – ‘lil Pip

    It’s my fault for putting a full stop after that sentance. Some took the punctuation literally. It went on to say,
    …….It’s the difference between strategy and aim. Is that so hard to understand?

    Apparantly so.

  • RadP “Given your opinion of Bolt’s blog you still can’t stop yourself from reading his blog site. What does that say about you?”

    It’s like driving past a car crash Rad. You have to slow down just to have a look.

  • “Confessions showns her true lack of interlect…”

    You are a genuine talent RadMatt, you know that?

  • “It’s like driving past a car crash Rad. You have to slow down just to have a look.”

    Absolutely DBoP, morbid fascination, a curiosity of what retarded wingnuts think.

    But I don’t really have to go to Bolt’s, I can just read drivel from retarded wingnuts here, for example one utterly ignorant twat wrote the following:

    ““the Palestinians are not locked up in ghetto’s. They have every opportunity to turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other””

    How anybody could be so ignorant and still post without feeling utterly humiliated is beyond me, yet the troll continues to post. Fortunately DBoP I needn’t engage such trolls.

  • Ive noticed a couple of interesting things about these rightards.

    First, an inability to understand cause and effect.
    Terrorism and Islamic extremism doesn’t exist within a vacume, it is in part (but not entirely) a result of the wests policies and interferance.

    Second, an inability to understand that an explanation is not an excuse. They seem to think that any comments from the left about the causes of terrorism are attempts to excuse terrorism, which they are obviously not.

    Thirdly, their truly monumental self importance. They really dont seem to get the idea that an attack in which westerners are killed is not neccisarily an attack on the west. Are the lives of westerners worth so much more in their estimation that 10X as many Indians can be killed, but they still see it as an attack on the west?

    Fuckwits.

  • You are a genuine talent RadMatt, you know that?

    You just love those typos don’t you Badbod. As I said once before, you don’t get out much do you.

  • RobJ – I tend to visit Bolt’s site to see what he has posted on and then read anything I find relevant. Mainly posts relating to water / weather because that is what interests me the most.

  • They’re always typos, and you clangers are always sarcasm. Yes they are.

  • And yes RadMatt, you’re right, I don’t get out much. I told you about my accident and I think it’s tasteless and unnecessary of you to keep mentioning it.

  • Yes DBoP, I checked your Blog on the Mitchell dam, nice one, you’ve put in a fair bit of effort, We were discussing Bolt in work the other day, it seems he’s got some of my colleagues convinced on the Mitchell Dam, Vic Labor don’t help their own cause mind you (focus on Desal and Pipelines, not conservation) I’ll be referring my colleagues to your blog, I could never articulate the argument as well as you’ve done.

    Cheers – I appreciate the effort you’ve put in.

  • And yes RadMatt, you’re right, I don’t get out much. I told you about my accident and I think it’s tasteless and unnecessary of you to keep mentioning it

    I don’t. You are the one that keeps bring it up. I am simply responding to your comments which are laced with childish venom and hate.

  • “Childish venom and hate”? I told you I loved you RadMatt, I told you repeatedly, yet still you spurn me. Have you no heart?

  • No worries and thanks Rob – I had a similar thing within my company. I will be looking more at the economics side of it in the near future. The Mitchell Dam is not in fact the cheapest option listed in the report in terms of $/kL supplied.

  • That’s a very thoughtful piece Michael, the absolute antithesis of the sort of tripe Bolt and his ilk serve up on this issue. It’s considered, knowledgeable, and constructive. Unfortunately for Bolt-minded folk like RadMatt, there’s no rage or vengefulness, so they probably think it’s bleeding-heart rubbish. Oh well. Have a read RadMatt, let us know what you think. Prove me wrong. Nic, I’d be interested to know what you think about it too.

  • Oh well. Have a read RadMatt, let us know what you think. Prove me wrong.

    The article may address ways of possibly preventing recruit of people by Militant Islamic groups in third world countries. What it doesn’t look at is an even greater problem, which is the recruitment of militant Islamic groups within wealthy western countries. The London bombers in 2005 or the Madrid Bombers would not have been prevented by the suggestions within this article. It also doesn’t address how the west deals with those that have already been recruited and brainwashed into committing terror attacks.

  • I think all of us at Bolt Watch should travel to a terrorist camp in Pakistan and ask them why they are doing what they doing and what we can do to help them learn the error of their ways. Seriously, I think we should all do it this Christmas.

  • So what do you think needs to be done about “the recruitment of militant Islamic groups within wealthy western countries” and “those that have already been recruited and brainwashed into committing terror attacks”, RadMatt?

  • Thanks Freddo, but I already have something else booked. I’ll be thinking of you though.

  • BadBob:
    So what are you going to be doing to make the world a better place?

  • Or in other words – hey that’s very sensible and the anithesis of Bolt-World, but I can’t exactly say that.

    Though it is very interesting that ‘lil Pip tips his hand with “an even greater problem“.

    Any objective assessment shows the the vast majority of the victims of this kind of terrorism are the peoples of the third world in general and Muslims in particular.

    I guess that’s why they at look at Mumbai with its vast majority of Indian victims and say ‘it’s an attack on the west’. Apparently these ‘non-westerners’ don’t count for much.

  • So what do you think needs to be done about “the recruitment of militant Islamic groups within wealthy western countries” and “those that have already been recruited and brainwashed into committing terror attacks”, RadMatt?

    It’s an extremely complex problem that requires very complex solutions. The problem is that we are dealing with a group of militants that believe that it is their god given right to kill anyone that does not submit to their ideology. It is also a group that are offended by every ideal we believe in in western society.

    Personally, I think it is a problem that we will never be able to remove from society. Militant islam is similar to any other cult that recruits within our society.

  • I think all of us at Bolt Watch should travel to a terrorist camp in Pakistan and ask them why they are doing what they doing and what we can do to help them learn the error of their ways. Seriously, I think we should all do it this Christmas.

    Islamic extremists have already made it very clear what it takes to make them happy. All infidels must die and everyone else must covert to Islam and submit to Shari law.

  • “pparently these ‘non-westerners’ don’t count for much.”

    Doesn’t sell Western news media more like.

    How many thousands have died from terrorist attacks in India alone in the past few years? Kill a few Westerners and it’s all over the news for weeks, as it should be, but we (the collective rich Western World) don’t really notice when non-whites are killed en masse.

    Maybe we just empathise more easily with people who look and speak like us?

    As I understand it the only country in the world these days that suffers more from terrorism is Iraq. We get plenty of coverage in Iraq, which is good, after all it was the coalition of the killing that destroyed the law and order infrastructure in Iraq, making it an ideal hotbed of terrorism.

  • OK RadMatt, for once it’s pretty hard to disagree with what you have written, but there’s nothing in it to suggest a program of action to address, contain or eradicate this kind of extremism. The article Michael linked to had some constructive suggestions for the Islamic nations themselves, but you demurred on the issue of “home-grown” extremists in Western countries. So what would you do?

  • I’m not going to tell you what I do to make the world a better place Freddo. It’s a private matter for me. But take my word for it, I do my bit.

  • Maybe we just empathise more easily with people who look and speak like us?

    Don’t be ridiculous. We receive media that is more relevant to us. The reason why an attack in New York, London, Madrid, Bali and Mumbai rates higher in Australian Media is because there is a higher chance that Australians are involved because these are destination where Australian travel too. We are also more interested in news that impacts us more directly. For example – There is a higher chance that we may have a family member, friend or work mate impacted by a terror attack in Mumbai or London than one in Somalia.

    There is only a limited amount of time available on the news so it stands to reason that events that impact Australia or Australians will get priority over events that do not.

  • OK RadMatt, for once it’s pretty hard to disagree with what you have written, but there’s nothing in it to suggest a program of action to address, contain or eradicate this kind of extremism

    That’s because I don’t believe that we can eradicate extremism. All we can do is manage it, prevent casualties and try and keep one step ahead of those that want to destroy us. Extremism is a fundamental part of the human experience.
    How do you deal with ideology that has a sociopathic desire the kill and destroy? Reason will never be a solution for this.

  • “How many thousands have died from terrorist attacks in India alone in the past few years? Kill a few Westerners and it’s all over the news for weeks, as it should be,”

  • >How do you deal with ideology that has a sociopathic desire the kill and destroy?

    Perhaps raising world awareness of the contents of the Koran would help?

  • “…..but you demurred on the issue of “home-grown” extremists in Western countries. So what would you do?”

    Bob,

    Perhaps keeping a closer watch on what is being preached in the mosques by the Imams in Western countries and taking tougher action on violence inciting speeches by them could help…although I know this could raise the possibility of making all Muslims feel as though they are being blamed for the actions of a very small few…

  • Perhaps raising world awareness of the contents of the Koran would help? – Freddo

    Yes, the ‘Protocols of the Elders of Mecca’ must be exposed.

    The Muslim cabal that wants to take over the world must be stopped!

  • I think Freddo might be a bit of a provocateur, but that’s just me.

  • Jesus, RadMatt, just when I thought you might be getting a clue. I’ve asked you why there’s nothing in your post “to suggest a program of action to address, contain or eradicate this kind of extremism” and you’ve replied with “because I don’t believe that we can eradicate extremism”. Did you read the other two words – “address” and “contain”? Did you read the “or” before “eradicate”? It’s like teaching a Grade 6 kid.

    You then go on to make the assertion that “reason will never be a solution for this”. So what are you proposing as an answer? Unreason? Irrationality? Violence? Persecution? What?

  • BadBob – Some news programs can’t fit in news of major terrorist attacks because they need an “exclusive” with some lingerie model to call it ‘news’.

    Hey maybe it was “the left” who did the Mumbai attacks?
    thepost.com.pk/OpinionNews.aspx?dtlid=195103&catid=11

  • Bob,

    Thanks for suggesting I read that article that Michael posted. It was certainly interesting, even if I don’t agree with all of it.

    I think it is more complicated than the article suggest and Rad is right (as you say) that it does not address how to contain home grown terrorism – where people raised in a modern welfare State with good jobs or otherwise with access to government housing/welfare turn around and commit atrocities like the London Bombings.

    Something that disturbs me, is one of the reasons that some of the terrorists or their sympathisers give for hating us is our modern liberal society. They don’t hate us because some parts of the West allows gay marriage. They hate us because we allow gays to exist. We are never going to change enough to remove their hatred of us (without losing everything we stand for).

    I’d also suggest that the article does not address the problems like Osama – where the child of a very wealthy family gets radicalised and becomes a terrorist. Poverty can hardly be blamed for that.

    I’d also criticise the approach in the article of picking out existing elites to support. Part of the problem with a failed or failing state is that it is the existing elites that are the problem. Picking friends and supporting them against internal rivals in the middle east has not worked before, and have no reason to think it might change (e.g. Saddam et al). Part of the attraction of the extreme forms of religion is that it allows for an outlet of oppositon against the local elites where freedoms don’t exist.

    However it is very easy to criticise and I don’t have any particular solution for any of this other than to keep down the path we are currently on. I’m not sure how well that is working out – but time will tell. Personally, I’m all for extending democracy into the middle east. Iraq, for all its problems, is a better place to live now than it was under Saddam.

  • I remember the earlier attacks in India getting a lot of media coverage at the time. But then I (as probably a lot of us on this site) tend to consume a large number of different sorts of media from Australia and the globe.

    As Rad suggested, if Australians are involved in a disaster or attack overseas, it gets a lot more media attention. This is just natural (it probably is part of human nature that news is more interesting if it involves someone more like you).

    You’d want equal coverage for all events, but that is never going to happen. All news must be filtered in some way – a bias to local stories is inevitable.

  • a bias to local stories is inevitable.</i” – Nic

    Bias, yes. Stupidity, no.

  • Personally, I’m all for extending democracy into the middle east. Iraq, for all its problems, is a better place to live now than it was under Saddam.” – Nic

    Sadly, many Iraqis disagree with you.

  • “Iraq, for all its problems, is a better place to live now than it was under Saddam.”

    this is the last line of defence for the iraq war cheersquadders and it’s no surprise there running with it for all it’s worth. but probe beneath the spin from the rightwingers and you find a more sobering truth:

    http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/12/the-second-surg.html

    there was no justification for the iraq war. none. we’ve been fed all sorts of shit in order to defend our invasion, and at the end of the day all the rightards can offer now is ’saddam was evil dictator’. therefore our actions were justified.

    well here’s a newsflash kiddies: saddam not the only dictator running a country. so if you think the iraq invasion was justified because of big ol bad saddam, you must by logical reason be behind invasion of north korea, zimbabwe, burma, even china. are there any blair or bolt sheep who wanna pin their colours to THAT mast? anyone?

    the iraq war teaches us many lessons, not the least of which is that there is a core of our media who were prepared to cheersquad the invasion of a soverieng nation, and to cheersquad purely for political expedience in order to play some strange warped culture war game with our society and the lives of iraqi citizens in the absence of emprical evidence or critical journalistic ability. sadly when i read the regurgitated bolt/blair talking points from Nic and her ilk, i wonder whether we have in fact learned anything at all from the quagmire that is iraq. the rightwing reaction to the latest mumbai attacks are a case in point.

  • There is one important thing we’ve learned – that the rights approach to counter-terrorism is a highly effective enabler of terrorism and should be avoided at all costs.

  • ““Iraq, for all its problems, is a better place to live now than it was under Saddam.”

    this is the last line of defence for the iraq war cheersquadders and it’s no surprise there running with it for all it’s worth. but probe beneath the spin from the rightwingers and you find a more sobering truth:”

    Spot on confessions, they’re just regurgitating the crap that Bolt spews.

    Rad spewed:

    “Don’t be ridiculous. ”

    What like this?

    “the Palestinians are not locked up in ghetto’s. They have every opportunity to turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other”

    Why are you still here? You’ve proven that you have no credibilty troll!

  • When they invaded Iraq they said they had to get rid of Iraqs’ WMDs. When none were found the war mongers of the right changed that to ” Saddam was a dictactor and he had to be removed”.
    They keep all quite on all the other dictactors around the world, especially their heros, the right wing dictactors in South America.

  • Geoff,

    The US bit off more than it could chew with Iraq, Donald Rumsfeld and the rest of the admin thought it would take a few months and they would be greeted with open arms. They were wrong, they fucked up monumentally!

    Now,N Korea has WMD, N Korea is run by a despot that is happy to see his nation starve. N Korea would be much harder miltary operation than the Iraq the US still hasn’t managed to fix hence there’s never talk of invading N Korea because of WMD or cruel despots.

    If the rationale for invading Iraq was good, not cherry picked from crap intel surely then GW Bush and his grovelling, lying, poodles Howard and Blair would have been lobbying to invade N Korea first.

    The invasion of Iraq had fuck all to do with WMD, it was a failed neocon experiment.

    Now, before the raving wingnuts think they need to remind me that Hussein and Iraq were in contravention of the UNSC I say so what! So are Israel, they have been for decades but there’s never a peep from the rightards (or the USA) where Israel is concerned.

  • You then go on to make the assertion that “reason will never be a solution for this”. So what are you proposing as an answer? Unreason? Irrationality? Violence? Persecution? What?

    That’s not what I am saying Badbod. I am saying that we are dealing with a pathological ideology that does not understand reason. You cannot reason with people that believe that it is the god given right to kill anyone that does not submit to their ideology.

    This is why I believe that militant Islam is a group that we will never get rid of. All we can really do is try to protect ourselves from their attacks.

    Badbod, do you honestly believe that an group like the Taliban can be reasoned with? Do you believe that they can be made to understand the value of human rights?

  • “Badbod, do you honestly believe that an group like the Taliban can be reasoned with?”

    The Taleban halted the Afghan opium trade when co-operating with the US. The Taleban offered OBL on a platter if only Bush had shown us the ‘proof’ he said he had that OBL had orchestrated 911, (by definition Bush did not have proof)

    The Taleban are pigs, the Taleban practice harsh Sharia Islamic law, however the Taleban are no worse than the NA Warlords that the coalition allied themselves with. People think that Afghani women were suppressed because of the Taleban, women in Afghanistan were suppressed period, regardless of who was in power, with the exception of course when the USSR occupied Afghanistan, that’s when it had a university that women could attend. Of course the US and it’s allies did everything it could to undermine the soviet occupation, they trained Mujaheddins, they even armed them with stingers FFS!

    Maybe we should have assisted the USSR rather than arm and train the crazy Islamists?

    Yeah the Taleban are pricks as far as I’m concerned but it’s quite false to claim that they cannot be reasoned with. Probably due to ignorance, or due to believing the rubbish that Bolt spews??? Dunno which but again Rad is wrong!

  • I might add that in the 90’s the Taleban were being courted in Texas by Texan Oilpeople, they were discussing the building of a trans-afghan pipeline.

  • The Taleban halted the Afghan opium trade when co-operating with the US. The Taleban offered OBL on a platter if only Bush had shown us the ‘proof’ he said he had that OBL had orchestrated 911, (by definition Bush did not have proof)

    They refused to hand over OBL when there was a mountain of evidence that he was involved in global terrorism throughout the 1990’s and on 9/11.

    The taliban created a safe haven for OBL throughout the 90’s when he was wanted for other terrorist acts. So when 9/11 happened, there was already a mountain of proof that supported OBL’s activities and sponsoring of terrorism.

    If the taliban were willing to hand him over they would have years before 9/11.

    Yeah the Taleban are pricks as far as I’m concerned but it’s quite false to claim that they cannot be reasoned with. Probably due to ignorance, or due to believing the rubbish that Bolt spews??? Dunno which but again Rad is wrong

    Yes Rob, their beheading of women in public sports arenas for the crime of talking to men on the street is a sign of how they can be reasoned with.

  • “They refused to hand over OBL when there was a mountain of evidence that he was involved in global terrorism throughout the 1990’s and on 9/11.”

    Bush said there was ‘proof’ but he wouldn’t present that ‘proof’ therefore it wasn’t ‘proof’! Do you get it or is it a little complicated for you?

    “Yes Rob, their beheading of women in public sports arenas for the crime of talking to men on the street is a sign of how they can be reasoned with.”

    If atrocities upset you then why aren’t you outraged that the coalition has allied themselves with pricks like Dostum? (you better hit wiki, your ignorance is showing) Pricks who rape young boys and practice ‘death by shipping container’ is it because you’re a hypocrite or are you just trying to show us all how ignorant you are?

    I’ve given examples of the West dealing with the Taleban. You’ve just regurgitated the shit you’ve learned from Bolt. You are a very ignorant person!

  • Rad you need to read up on the massacre at Mazar al Sharif , where the two US CIA agents (who fucked up monumentally) were operating as ‘illegal combatants’ no uniform, no markings to identify themselves. One of them was killed, and if Bush was fair dinkum the other would be in Guantanamo Bay or Bagram Air base. Of course, it’s OK when we break the rules.

    Go and learn a little about the world you live in. I won’t link you, I’ll let you choose your own sources (just avoid Bolt, he’s a liar)

  • Bush said there was ‘proof’ but he wouldn’t present that ‘proof’ therefore it wasn’t ‘proof’! Do you get it or is it a little complicated for you?

    Oh whatever Rob. Now you are just sprouting idelogicaly charged propaganda. OBL had been linked to other attacks throughout the 1990’s.

    I’ve given examples of the West dealing with the Taleban. You’ve just regurgitated the shit you’ve learned from Bolt. You are a very ignorant person!

    So what Rob. The west tried to deal rationally with the Taliban before 9/11. History has now proven that this approach failed. The problem for the Taliban is that after 9/11 they crossed the line by refusing to hand over OBL. OBL have proven that he now had the capability to cause really serious damage on US soil and the US government could no longer do nothing about it.

    If the Taliban were rational they would have just handed OBL over to the UN but they refused.

  • the Taleban are no worse than the NA Warlords” – RobJ

    Hardly surprising given that they are, for the most part, one and the same. Taliban became Northern Alliance in exchange for suitcases of US dollars.

  • RobJ – do you believe that there is no proof that OBL was responsible for 9/11? If so, I never realised that you were a truther.

  • Michael, I don’t think that’s true. The NA are not elements of the Taleban under a different name.

  • “RobJ – do you believe that there is no proof that OBL was responsible for 9/11? If so, I never realised that you were a truther.”

    I can remember Bush claiming there was proof but he wouldn’t actually produce it. I have a better memory than you. I actually understand what the word ‘proof’ means, it doesn’t mean evidence that we are not prepared to show you. The Taleban played a game of Brinksmanship, initially it looked like they lost, seven years later though it’s not so clear.

    “I never realised that you were a truther.”

    I’m not, what’s a ‘truther’ an ad hom?

    “Michael, I don’t think that’s true. The NA are not elements of the Taleban under a different name.”

    Nic is right, but yeah if I was Taleban and someone was offering me a suitcase of money……

    Rad, why do you single out the Taleban and choose to ignore the atrocities of the NA? Is it because you’re a hypocrite or just ignorant (or both)

  • RadMatt, saying that “reason is not the answer” is not the same as saying that the Taliban (which you have neatly equated with the entire Islamist movement) cannot be reasoned with. Do you see the difference?

  • I can remember Bush claiming there was proof but he wouldn’t actually produce it.

    Where is your evidence that the Taliban were not provided with evidence from the UN of OBL’s terrorist activities?

    The Taleban played a game of Brinksmanship, initially it looked like they lost, seven years later though it’s not so clear

    Oh so you now admit that the Taliban should have handed over OBL?!

    Nic is right, but yeah if I was Taleban and someone was offering me a suitcase of money……

    Oh, so you mean like from Billionaire OBL?!

    Rad, why do you single out the Taleban and choose to ignore the atrocities of the NA? Is it because you’re a hypocrite or just ignorant (or both)

    Because we are talking about the war in Afghanistan. I said that Militant Islam is a group that cannot be reasoned with. Because of this all we can do is protect ourselves from their attacks. OBL attacked the US and the Taliban refused to hand him over so the UN approved military action against them.

    I personally don’t believe that humanity will ever be able to remove all dictators or those that commit atrocities against others. All we can do is attempt to contain them and act against them when they threaten world security.

    The problem is that as long as we strive as a society for greater human rights and dignity, their will always be groups and ideologies that will strive harder to destroy us.

  • “I can remember Bush claiming there was proof but he wouldn’t actually produce it.

    Where is your evidence that the Taliban were not provided with evidence from the UN of OBL’s terrorist activities?”

    Mullah Omar asked to see the proof, Bush refused, that you can’t remember this highlights that you are debating from very shaky ground.

    “Oh so you now admit that the Taliban should have handed over OBL?! ”

    It would have been to their benefit, that is obvious. I never argued that they shouldn’t, you are such a dishonest person. Why don’t you just debate what I’ve written, not what you imagined I wrote? Oh that’s right, it’s because you’re a troll.

    Sorry Rad, you haven’t answered the question, why is it OK to ally ourselves with people who i would contend are equally ruthless but even more lawless than the Taleban.

    Because is not a very good answer!

    Why have you not once condemned the coalition for allying with reprehensible murderous thieves?

  • RadMatt, saying that “reason is not the answer” is not the same as saying that the Taliban (which you have neatly equated with the entire Islamist movement) cannot be reasoned with. Do you see the difference?

    I think that you are misunderstanding me. When I say that reason is not the answer, I am saying that reason alone will not stop Militant Islam. At some point military action and economic sanctions against them has to be part of the equation. Especially when their fundamental beliefs include martyrdom and submit to us or die and they are intend of annihilating us all from this earth.

    BTW – I think that the Taliban are a very strong example of Militant Islam in today’s world. Of course they are not the only group that fall under that umbrella.

  • Mullah Omar asked to see the proof, Bush refused, that you can’t remember this highlights that you are debating from very shaky ground

    If you cannot produce proof then you are debating on very shaky ground. Especially considering that the war in afganistan is based on UN demands to hand over OBL.

    Are you saying that the UN refused to provide the Taliban required.

    Also define the kind of evidence that Mullar Omar wanted?

    You are looking more and more like a truther Rob.

  • “If you cannot produce proof”

    From the troll who always claims every single time he’s caught out (which is rather frequent) that he was being sarcastic or made a typo.

    You’re not very bright are you Matt? I’m suggesting that your ‘fantastic education’ was actually crap. I don’t have to prove anything to you, what I’ve written about has been well documented, of course you’d never learn this from the sources you favour (Bolt) That’s your problem, you’re an ignorant wingnut.

    I don’t really care for improving your knowledge, you’re a twat, I enjoy watching you consistently humiliate yourself. Actually you’re worse than a twat, your a prick that supported the killing of countless Iraqis, your a prick that likes to continue the proliferation of wingnut lies, ie you’re quite a foul person IMNSHO. You lie about the plight of Palestinians (or you’re so stupid you really ought to stop posting).

    BTW – prove this idiotic statement you made recently:

    “the Palestinians are not locked up in ghetto’s. They have every opportunity to turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other”

    LOL

    And while your at it, tell us why it’s OK for the Northern Alliance to rape and pillage in the name of the coalition, where’s your outrage hypocrite?

    What’s a ‘truther’ is it one of these terms Boltards like to throw around like ‘terrorist’ or ‘the left’?

  • No RadMatt, I am not misunderstanding you, I am pointing out the careless use of words which left your post open to misinterpretation.

  • What Nic is suggesting Rob (and RadMatt is echoing, probably without understanding what he is saying) is that you are implying that there was a conspiracy to hide the truth about 9/11. They are trying to associate your views with those of the loonies who thought it was actually done by the Jews, or the CIA, or the Illuminati, or something.

  • BadBob is right: ‘truthers’ are nutters who think 9/11 was an inside job. nowhere has rob written that he believes this, which means the only reason Nic and rad would use it is because neither of them can argue against the points he raised. just like they use apologia for terrorists, pedophiles to describe those against the NT intervention etc etc.

    it isn’t a crime that the wingnuts choose to regurgitate bolt/blair talking points, but that they choose to do it on this site where such tactics are easily spotted from a mile away.

  • Yes, when one can’t debate they just make shit up. I guessed that but I wanted to hear it from a wingnut.

    That people who openly supported the killing of countless Iraqis (just to get one man, when the WMD excuse dried up) think I’m a lunatic is no skin off my nose. I wouldn’t want respect from chickenhawks who cheer lead the Neocon lies from the safety of their keyboard.

    Spew rubbish like “Iraq, for all its problems, is a better place to live now than it was under Saddam”

    Fuck ‘em! They so openly display that they haven’t got a clue and are just swallowing BS wingnut rhetoric from the likes of bigots like Bolt.

  • No RadMatt, I am not misunderstanding you, I am pointing out the careless use of words which left your post open to misinterpretation

    Anyway, I have further clarified what I was saying.

    And while your at it, tell us why it’s OK for the Northern Alliance to rape and pillage in the name of the coalition, where’s your outrage hypocrite?

    Give it a rest Rob. Where did I say that it was OK. Please provide evidence that I did Rob.

    I don’t have to prove anything to you, what I’ve written about has been well documented, of course you’d never learn this from the sources you favour (Bolt) That’s your problem, you’re an ignorant wingnut.

    In other words you cannot prove it and it is just one of your truther opinions.

  • The US had the greatest opportunity to stabilise and to moderate the politics in the Afghan area when they helped oust the Russians.

    The US funded the whole campaign which resulted in the place being blown to bits. All they had to do was spend some money to re-build the schools and hospitals but instead this was left to the hard line muslims via funding from elsewhere which resulted in the locals hating the USA.

    The same thing has happened in Africa where Saudi influences have created massive extremist muslim groups.

  • Yes, when one can’t debate they just make shit up. I guessed that but I wanted to hear it from a wingnut.

    LOL You mean make shit up like this rob;

    And while your at it, tell us why it’s OK for the Northern Alliance to rape and pillage in the name of the coalition, where’s your outrage hypocrite

    You really are a piece of work Rob. You have no shame do you?!

  • “The US had the greatest opportunity to stabilise and to moderate the politics in the Afghan area when they helped oust the Russians.”

    As I see it Afghanistan under the Soviets was a better place than it is now. But we couldn’t have the Soviets in Afghanistan so we had a proxy war where we (the Western Allies, specifically the US and UK) trained and armed the very people we now label terrorists.

    “You really are a piece of work Rob. You have no shame do you?!”

    Erm Rad, you called me a ‘truther’ mereley because I understand the conflict in Afghanistan better than you, you have no evidence, you just made it up. Had you even heard of Dostum and Mazar al Sharif before today? If you had you ought to be outraged that we’ve allied ourselves with these pricks.

    “Give it a rest Rob. Where did I say that it was OK. Please provide evidence that I did Rob. ”

    So you don’t support the coalitions alliance with the Northern Alliance? Or do you, you keep dodging the issue.

  • Confessions, BadBob, RobJ

    Truther is a term that encompasses all people who say that there is no proof that OBL was behind 9/11. People who believe that it was the Jews who did, or that Bush did it or let it happen are sub-sets of the general truther movement. There are many wide varieties of it. General skepticism in the face of the evidence counts as truthering, as there is proof that OBL and the organisation he headed was behind it.

    I’m still uncertain whether RobJ is saying merely that Bush provided no evidence to the Taleban or is saying that there is no evidence at all that OBL did it. The last proposition is crazy – as OBL has himself admitted that he did it.

  • RobJ – “As I see it Afghanistan under the Soviets was a better place than it is now.”

    Why? I doubt many Afghanis would agree with you.

  • “Truther is a term that encompasses all people who say that there is no proof that OBL was behind 9/11″

    So somebody who actually remembers GW talking about ‘proof’ but refusing to show that ‘proof’ is a truther?

    No, Nic, where did I claim OBL was not behind 911? I didn’t so why do you suggest that I did?

    “I’m still uncertain whether RobJ is saying merely that Bush provided no evidence to the Taleban or is saying that there is no evidence at all that OBL did it.”

    Well you have problems with comprehension.

    But we already know that, I say TT/Herald Sun is shit, you say I ‘hate’ stupid people, you are great at reading between the lines, you have to because often your argument lacks merit, so you resort to ad homs, ie you try to divert attention from the debate by labeling me a ‘truther’ or a hater of dumb people. Thus dismissing everything I write.

    Like I say though, it’s no skin off my nose, anybody who supported the killing of invasion of Iraq and still does to this day claiming it’s actually a better place now has bugger all credibilty.

  • RobJ – I’m still unclear. You say that George Bush has provided no proof that OBL is behind 9/11 and then you say that you haven’t said OBL is not behind 9/11.

    The US government has provided ample proof that OBL is behind 9/11. Either you believe that proof or not – you can’t claim that it does not exist.

  • It seems to me that the massacre of Taleban prisoners at Mazar-I-Sharif prison by the Northern Alliance was probably an act of revenge for the earlier massacre of Hazara, Tajik and Uzbek civilians by the Taleban forces who took over that town, given that the leaders of the Northern Alliance troops on the spot were an Hazara, an Uzbek and a Tajik and that tribal feuding and the code of ‘an eye for an eye’ is still very much prevalent in Afghanistan, I believe that this would have been sufficient motive for their actions at the prison:

    http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/reports98/afghan/Afrepor0-02.htm

    This isn’t to justify the prison massacre, just to try and put it into some context and perhaps provide some background for it.

    There does appear to be some doubt about the allegations against Dostum that he deliberately suffocated prisoners in containers, I’ve tried to google a reliable independent source, but so far haven’t found any sites that could be said to be unbiased. Wiki seems to be the most balanced I’ve found on Dostum and those accusations so far (although I know wiki isn’t necessarily the best source and I usually try to avoid quoting it) :

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Rashid_Dostum

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasht-i-Leili_massacre

  • “RobJ – I’m still unclear. You say that George Bush has provided no proof that OBL is behind 9/11 and then you say that you haven’t said OBL is not behind 9/11.”

    Why are you unclear? When George Bush demanded the Taleban hand over OBL he said he had ‘proof’ but refused to divulge so by definition it wasn’t proof, this is really basic stuff.

    Personally I think OBL had something to do with it, I’m pretty sure the prick is happy to take the credit. I am not claiming there isn’t any evidence or even proof I’m telling you all what a twat Bush is and how many twats are prepared to take the liar at face value.

    “you can’t claim that it does not exist.”

    Go back to school. Come back when you’ve learned to stop putting words in others mouths. You have a track record of attempting to put words in my mouth, of course you’ve failed every time.

  • You don’t think this truther thing could be a bit of a Godwin, do you Nic? (Shut up RadMatt, I’m not interested in what you have to say about this.)

  • RobJ – no-one is putting words into your mouth. I’m genuinely interested how you can claim that Bush and his government has not provided sufficient evidence to establish that OBL did it.

    FWIW, I’ve no interested in re-opening your earlier pwning over the compulsory voting issue.

  • BadBob – not in this context, where it is relevant to the discussions on the Taleban and the causes for the invasion of Afghanistan. The claim that there is no proof that OBL was responsible for 9/11 is a relevant topic to discuss.

  • Personally I think OBL had something to do with it, I’m pretty sure the prick is happy to take the credit. I am not claiming there isn’t any evidence or even proof I’m telling you all what a twat Bush is and how many twats are prepared to take the liar at face value

    You argument falls apart rob when you consider that the UN sanctioned the invasion of Afghanistan. If GWB was holding back evidence, then why did the UN and a host of other countries agree to go to war?!

    You allegation that Bush refused to give the Taliban evidence of OBL’s involvement in 9/11 just doesn’t make sense.

    Also there is the elephant in the room so to speak which is that OBL was already wanted for serious terrorist attacks made in the 90’s. The Taliban’s refusal to hand over OBL was already in breach of UN resolution 1373.

  • “There does appear to be some doubt about the allegations against Dostum that he deliberately suffocated prisoners in containers,”

    To his credit, according to the documentary they did put air holes in the shipping containers, whilst they were full of prisoners. Of course the air holes were made with bullets.

    Where are the prisoners? When the doco makers wanted to investigate an alleged mass grave the US Marines wouldn’t let them.

    Anyway the most interesting thing about the massacre (apart from the US bombing the wrong people in the prison (fort)) was the behavior of the two CIA guys who stuffed up, they were behaving exactly like the ‘unlawful combatants’ the US locks up and throws away the key for.

  • One of his earlier documentaries apparently verges on HIV/Aids denial. I’m not sure if he is the best person to present a documentary on something that would be remarkably difficult for the US to keep quiet. Is there any evidence other than his documentary? I cannot seem to find anything else on a google search.

  • Thank you RadMatt for shutting up about my Godwin question. You are a gentleman, if not a scholar.

  • “RobJ – no-one is putting words into your mouth. I’m genuinely interested how you can claim that Bush and his government has not provided sufficient evidence to establish that OBL did it.”

    Because when he (Bush) was demanding OBL’s head from Mullah Omar he refused to show him the ‘proof’. What happened after that was moot because the Taleban were ousted so had he eventually provided the proof Omar would have no longer been in a position to comply. It’s not my fault that you can’t remember these events, maybe they just were not reported on your favourite media outlet.

    My claim is very straightforward. I have never made the claim that there is no evidence of OBL’s involvement.

  • Because when he (Bush) was demanding OBL’s head from Mullah Omar he refused to show him the ‘proof’

    So was the UN Rob.

    I find it interesting that you refuse to provide proof of your theory. It’s all good and well for you to claim that Bush refused to hand over proof of OBL’s involvement in 9/11 but it is another thing for the to be true.

    BTW – you still haven’t addressed the UN in all of this. Why didn’t Mullah Omar hand over OBL at the request of the UN?

  • Thankyou RobJ. I was genuinely unclear from your earlier statements whether you thought there was no proof provided in general, or whether there was no proof provided to the Taleban. See, for instance, my comment at 9:49am

  • “To his credit, according to the documentary they did put air holes in the shipping containers, whilst they were full of prisoners. Of course the air holes were made with bullets.”

    Did you read the links Rob ?

    from the second wiki one : “Hilal Uddin, Deputy Interior Minister of Afghanistan, blames negligence for the deaths: “He [Dostum] is a stupid man. These containers are for carrying goods, not for carrying human beings. But still he should have been smart enough to shoot holes in the containers so these prisoners could breathe.” Describing specific responsibility, he says, “When Kamal reached Sheberghan and discovered that hundreds of his prisoners had died, he was afraid and just buried them on the spot. He was particularly afraid of what Gen. Dostum would say when he found out. But, in my view, Kamal did not want to kill these people. He was using these containers because he was worried about security and a break-out”

    You will note the term “He SHOULD have been smart enough to shoot holes in the containers so these prisoners could breathe….”

    Also the doco maker himself admitted that he had no evidence of what he was making his film about — that has to lead us to question the credibility of his so-called documentary.

  • “BTW – you still haven’t addressed ”

    Fuck – are you for real, you never back up your bogus posts you just tell lies about sarcasm or typos.

    Tell me Rad, what country do the Palestinians have?

    Tell me why you refuse to condemn the coalitions alliance with NA scum?

    “I find it interesting that you refuse to provide proof of your theory. ”

    But you don’t even understand the meaning of the word, like I say it’s not a theory, just because you’re ignorant of what happened prior to the invasion off Afghanistan why the fuck should I do your hom,ework.

    I don’t care to engage with pricks who to this day support the killing of innocent civilians.

    It’s also rather strange hearing a wingnut make appeals to the authority of the UN only when it suits them. If not complying with UNSC resolutions deserves bombing then why on earth aren’t you lobbying your neocon heroes to bomb Israel. Or do you only give a fuck when it suits your sick agenda?

  • Michael, I don’t think that’s true. The NA are not elements of the Taleban under a different name. – Nic

    ‘Tis I’m afraid.

    Though not all. Some NA stayed in the north biding their time, but the US ‘faciliated’ a good deal of conversion from Taliban to NA.

  • ““He [Dostum] is a stupid man.”

    He’s a nasty bastard but he’s hardly a stupid man.

  • Fuck – are you for real, you never back up your bogus posts you just tell lies about sarcasm or typos.

    LMAO LOL You are really funny Rob.

    Have you forgotten already what you have said;

    I don’t care to engage with pricks who to this day support the killing of innocent civilians.

    Oh and;

    And while your at it, tell us why it’s OK for the Northern Alliance to rape and pillage in the name of the coalition, where’s your outrage hypocrite

    You harp on about others using sarcasm and then try and claim that they were lying, then in the same breath you com out with comments I have just highlighted.

    You are a really piece of work Rob.

  • “He’s a nasty bastard but he’s hardly a stupid man.”

    No argument there Rob, but from what I can gather from reading about them, all those Afghan warlords are pretty much the same…You’ll find that throughout history, the Afghans have never been big on taking prisoners..

    As to the question of the coalition aligning with the NA, I think that can be explained by both political and military expediency — the advantage given by being allied with people who have local knowledge — and of course the old adage “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”..

  • As to the question of the coalition aligning with the NA, I think that can be explained by both political and military expediency — the advantage given by being allied with people who have local knowledge — and of course the old adage “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”..

    Be very, very careful there Gavin. Rob might accuse you of saying; it’s OK for the Northern Alliance to rape and pillage in the name of the coalition, where’s your outrage hypocrite.

  • “It’s also rather strange hearing a wingnut make appeals to the authority of the UN only when it suits them… Or do you only give a fuck when it suits your sick agenda?”

    Agreed Rob.

    Where is Rads mock indignation and shrill demands for recognition of the UN’s authority when Israel is discussed?

    Just a couple from among dozens of UN resolutions that Israel has breached, for Rads benefit..

    ‘Palestinian Refugees have the right to return to their homes in Israel.’

    General Assembly Resolution 194, Dec. 11, 1948

    ‘Israel’s occupation of Palestine is Illegal.’

    Security Council Resolution 242, Nov. 22, 1967

    ‘Israel’s settlements in Palestine are Illegal.’

    Security Council Resolution 446, March 22, 1979

    http://www.jatonyc.org/UNresolutions.html

  • “You are a really piece of work Rob.”

    Typo.

  • Or maybe sarcasm.

  • or lies.

  • “No argument there Rob, but from what I can gather from reading about them, all those Afghan warlords are pretty much the same…You’ll find that throughout history, the Afghans have never been big on taking prisoners..”

    I understand this Gavin, I haven’t read your Wiki link (yet) but I understand that if you’ve surrendered in A’stan then you will be spared, usually you just changed sides. These guys had surrendered, then those CIA spooks went and fucked it all up. The prisoners revolted and they were packed into containers for their troubles. Basically it was a case of the CIA not understanding or being wilfully ignorant of the situation. Either way they were by Bush’s own definition ‘illegal combatants’.

  • Crikey, Andrew Bolt has to have the most shallow, child-like understanding and view of political and social science in the media. This stuff is laughably puerile:

    http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/respect_for_those_who_showed_little/

  • RadP is still in here laughing his arse off. I suspect he must have a hell of a lot of arse. Perhaps he’s all arse? Certainly smells like one…

    You know RadP, proven liar, it doesn’t make you look any smarter to pepper your idiocy with LMAOs and LOLs. Although, mathematically, that’s a statement that 0 + 0 = 0.

  • Rob,

    From all I’ve read so far, and its not easy to find unbiased accounts, some of the prisoners had been brought in without being properly searched and had smuggled hand grenades in, which they used when they discovered that they were going to be questioned instead of being released and allowed to go home, which it is claimed they were told would happen if they surrendered by Dostum….I’m not sure anyone would really believe that soldiers who have just been captured would just immediately be released again though.

    There are also claims that some prisoners had been summarily executed on the spot by the NA troops, and that’s what triggered the revolt — given the massacre in the township by the Taleban and the tribal background of the NA commanders at the prison, which I referred to in my earlier post, these claims could very well be true..I guess we’ll probably never know for certain.

    Anyway it seems they over-powered the guards that were immediately around them, got into the armoury, bunkered themselves into buildings and basements and, well, we know the rest…the air-strikes that came in seem to be a controversial point with the coalition forces being accused of being in breach of the Geneva Convention for using disproportionate means (from wiki), but I suppose the commanders on the ground wanted to minimise troop losses, and you also have to consider if the term “disproportionate means” is really applicable in a combat situation. Personally I reckon there’s no such thing, if you’re in a battle you hit the other guy with everything you’ve got.

    I’m not sure why you keep referring to the 2 CIA agents as “illegal combatants”, it appears that they were there to interrogate the prisoners for information, it wasn’t illegal for them to have been dressed in Arab garb, as far as I can tell they were never really in combat and no doubt were dressed as Arabs so that they could walk amongst the prisoners without being recognised to hopefully overhear any useful information — that’s a common enough intelligence gathering method…

  • “There are also claims that some prisoners had been summarily executed on the spot by the NA troops, and that’s what triggered the revolt — given the massacre in the township by the Taleban and the tribal background of the NA commanders at the prison, which I referred to in my earlier post, these claims could very well be true..I guess we’ll probably never know for certain.”

    The footage I saw was of one of the CIA blokes hassling the prisoners, getting overpowered and losing his weapon to the prisoners. That I believe was the beginning of the revolt.

    “I’m not sure why you keep referring to the 2 CIA agents as “illegal combatants””

    They were on the battlefield, they were not in uniform, had no distinct dress/badge. according to the US they would be classed as illegal combatants, thus locked up for years with no charge and no protection from the Geneva conventions.

    “it wasn’t illegal for them to have been dressed in Arab garb”

    I thought they were wearing bomber jackets. Either way it’s the US’s definition I’m using. The British SAS up on the hill firing into the fort, they were wearing ‘Arab Garb’ If I remember correctly.

    “and you also have to consider if the term “disproportionate means” is really applicable in a combat situation. Personally I reckon there’s no such thing, if you’re in a battle you hit the other guy with everything you’ve got.”

    By that rationale maybe we should have just nuked Afghanistan. Of course I’m being flippant but if there were no such thing applicable in a combat situation,you’d just kill everybody you could, you’d take no prisoners. I don’t want an army representing me to act in that manner. I think it’s a cop out to say ‘well they’re worse’ (I’m not claiming you’ve made such a claim) If we think we’re better, if we try to gain the moral high ground then we need to hold ourselves to higher standards.

    Besides, terrorism will never be solved by military action, terrorism is criminal behavior and therefore should be dealt with by police. I cite Northern Ireland as an example, the military action forced a stalemate, now with negotiation things look a lot better for the people of Northern Ireland. This is what pisses me off about Blair, he should’ve known better. Howard? Well he’s a redneck wingnut like GW, I didn’t expect better from him.

  • Some good letters in todays Hun. Bolt gets some actual criticism from the readers and they published them. Wow.

  • We have a copy of the Sun in work, it might be time for a visit to the dunny!

  • “it doesn’t make you look any smarter to pepper your idiocy with LMAOs and LOLs. ”

    to rad’s credit at least he doesn’t do that stupid idiotic rightard laugh: BWAHAHAHAHAH! i seriously don’t know anyone who laughs like a crying baby.

    just my opion but i’ll take LOL any day over that crap.

  • “Be very, very careful there Gavin. Rob might accuse you of saying; it’s OK for the Northern Alliance to rape and pillage in the name of the coalition, where’s your outrage hypocrite.”

    You are a hypocrite, I called you on it simple as that!

    You still haven’t explained why it was OK to ally with Dostum.

    You still haven’t told us which country Palestinains have every opportunity to improve.

    You’re not only a hypocrite but you’re an ignorant liar too. Let’s face it, you never even heard of Dostum or Mazar al Sharif before today, you clearly have no idea of what’s happening in Israel yet you continue to post on such topics. Better to stop posting Rad, then we’ll just assume you’re an idiot, though, through your posts you’ve removed all doubt. You’re way out of your league. You only come here to troll and humiliate yourself.

  • At the point that the 2 CIA agents were there, it wasn’t actually a battlefield as yet — it became a battlefield after the first CIA agent was over-powered and killed, the second one then made his escape over the wall…

    I’m not positive about the ‘Arab garb’, it was mentioned that that was what they were wearing in one of the articles I read…Sorry, I read rather a lot and can’t remember which one it was, if its not in one of the linked ones, I’m afraid I’ve lost it now.

    “…if there were no such thing applicable in a combat situation,you’d just kill everybody you could, you’d take no prisoners….”

    Very few prisoners are normally taken in the heat of combat, there usually isn’t the time or the opportunity to do so….Most are taken during the “mopping up” operations after the main fighting has ceased. Don’t get me wrong though Rob, I’m not defending what happened at the prison, I’m just trying to put some sort of background to it…From reading the various articles I was looking at, I got the overall impression that the prisoners revolted because they thought — rightly or wrongly — that they were going to be executed anyway…

    I don’t think you can really use the IRA as an example of how to deal with Al-Quaeda, Hamas or Hezbollah, given that the IRA was a domestically based organisation carrying out attacks on home soil, whereas those others are all based externally to the countries they attack.

    Therefore, given the reluctance we’ve seen so far from those governments where these terror organisations are based to pursue them, who’s police force is going to have the jurisdiction to investigate those organisations and how will they go about making any arrests that may come from them ? The reason the English and Irish police were eventually able to make some progress against the IRA was that they had jurisdiction where the IRA was based.

  • “You still haven’t explained why it was OK to ally with Dostum.”

    I’ll have a bit of a bite at it…albeit not from the moralistic angle..

    I think from a purely pragmatic military point of view, it was sensible to ally with the NA, simply because its better to enter into a war with an ally against one enemy than to enter one against two enemies, there’s no doubt that having the NA as allies with their local knowledge of terrain and people saved coalition soldiers’ lives…As the Russians found to their cost, Afghanistan is a very unforgiving place.

  • “At the point that the 2 CIA agents were there, it wasn’t actually a battlefield as yet — it became a battlefield after the first CIA agent was over-powered and killed, the second one then made his escape over the wall…”

    Yeah, I know, the CIA guys fucked it all up with their aggressive interrogation techniques. That they fucked up is really not up for debate.

    “I don’t think you can really use the IRA as an example of how to deal with Al-Quaeda, Hamas or Hezbollah, given that the IRA was a domestically based organisation carrying out attacks on home soil,”

    Tell that to the Aussies that were slayed in Germany. The IRA are not in the same league as al Qaeda IMHO however they are terrorists, therefore criminal and need to be dealt with by police.

    “I got the overall impression that the prisoners revolted because they thought — rightly or wrongly — that they were going to be executed anyway…”

    As I understand it, it was the CIA who caused the revolt, Dostum was most upset with the US actions.

    “Therefore, given the reluctance we’ve seen so far from those governments where these terror organisations are based to pursue them”

    Afghanistan’s Govt is a puppet govt run by the Mayor of Kabul, they are in no position to solve anything, they are totally dependent on NATO.

    “The reason the English and Irish police were eventually able to make some progress against the IRA was that they had jurisdiction where the IRA was based.”

    I see what you’re saying but I still maintain the problem will not be solved militarily. NATO has a big problem in Afghanistan, they’re fully aware of this this is why the likes of Gates and Petreaus have finally conceded that at some point they will have to talk to their enemy, ie sit down with elements of the Taleban. Ultimately it will need to be solved by Afghani Police, I don’t see this happening in the near future.

    HAMAS and Hezbollah are not like al Qaeda. Hezbollah are a political party with a military wing, HAMAS are pretty much the only people who provide aid and welfare to Palestinians (unlike Fatah who just gave all the dosh to Arafat and his wife) HAMAS are the democratically elected leaders in Gaza, as a result it would be their right to have a military wing.

    al Qaeda are terrorists.

  • “I think from a purely pragmatic military point of view, it was sensible to ally with the NA, simply because its better to enter into a war with an ally against one enemy than to enter one against two enemies,”

    But then you have no moral high ground over the Taleban.

    A referendum would be a interesting, see whether Afghanis prefer the NA over the Taleban.. Bear in mind that the last time the NA had control of Kabul 50 000 people died.

    More later..

  • RobJ – HAMAS are terrorists. Of that there can be no doubt. What, are you an apologist for terrorists now?

  • Thanks Rob,

    It’s getting too hard to quote and re-quote…I agree with you on the points you listed re the CIA agents screwing up, but I’d probably contend that the military wing of Hezbollah and Hamas are closer to terrorists than soldiers.

    “But then you have no moral high ground over the Taleban”

    That’s probably true as well, but I suppose given that we had declared war on the Taleban over the Al-Quaeda issue, the question of the moral high ground was probably a moot point — and the NA were a readily available and usable resource against them…As I said, I’m not trying to justify the morals of the decision, just trying to point out the military reasoning that would most likely have been behind it.

    A referendum between the NA and the Taleban might be interesting…I’m not sure who’d win that one, although I think the NA are probably slightly more liberal in their views than the Taleban, it would be a very slight difference though…

    I’m not sure about talks with the Taleban either, the 2 sides would appear to be worlds apart and I can’t see any possibility of a compromise, but then again stranger things have happened in the past…

    The IRA attack in Germany was a very rare overseas action by them…and in the end it was because the British police could get to them on home soil that they were negated.

    “al Qaeda IMHO however they are terrorists, therefore criminal and need to be dealt with by police.”

    Yes, but who’s police force ? Consensus says they are based in Pakistan but it seems unlikely that the Pakistani police will be going after them any time soon.

  • “Yes, but who’s police force? Consensus says they are based in Pakistan but it seems unlikely that the Pakistani police will be going after them any time soon.”

    I agree, it’s a dilemma.

  • RobJ – HAMAS are terrorists. Of that there can be no doubt. What, are you an apologist for terrorists now? – Nic

    Including someone who is a member of Haams and is a teacher or a social worker?

    This is just silly and renders the term virtually meaningless.

  • Fatah were/are Terrorists, yet they are now armed and funded by the US, and negotiate with Israel.

    ———————-

    “This is just silly and renders the term virtually meaningless.”

    The term ‘terrorist’ was rendered meaningless years ago.

    All bombings are acts of terrorism if they cause death and terror amongst civilian populations. That’s why Bush, and others, now use “extremist”, and why Obama will probably water it down to “radicals” (a word Bush has also occasionally used to refer to acts of violence most of us would have expected to have been labeled as the work of ‘terrorists’).

    As Philip K Dick once put it, “The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words,
    you can control the people who must use the words.”

  • “The term ‘terrorist’ was rendered meaningless years ago.

    All bombings are acts of terrorism if they cause death and terror amongst civilian populations.”

    Agreed.

    I bet Nic is blissfully unaware of the CIAs involvement in car bombings

    If Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorists then so are the US, Israel and just about everybody involved in a conflict.

    I wonder if Nic ever condemned that ghastly act by the IDF where they dropped shit loads of cluster munitions on Lebanon? Did ya Nic, or do you follow the typical Bolt outlook that it’s only terrorism when the other side does it?

    Link us to where you’ve criticised Israeli acts of terrorism (and there are plenty) or kindly STFU!

  • Nic’s comment is typical of blair/bolt logic. timmy and andy recently have posted about how those who try to understand the root cause of terrorist attacks in order to prevent them are apologia for terrorists – typical fuckwittery. apparently we should be shooting first and asking questions later or as rob says it’s only terrorism when it’s the ‘bad guys’. thank god india isn’t didn’t shoot first and ask questions later! the simple fact is that if there was to be a simple fact concerning terrorism it would be that things are never as black and white as you want them to be.

    “I bet Nic is blissfully unaware…”

    i’ll bet Nic is also blissfully unaware that for decades nations have struggled with how to deal with hamas, such is the complexity of international relations when the organisation your country labels a terrorist group is the democratically elected leader and approved of by the majority of palestinians. i did think there was one western nation that did recognise hamas/fatah as the government, but can’t remember where i read that or what country it is.

    i dunno, the only thing i can say is it must be fucking wonderful to live in a world where everything can be reduced down to the most simplistic, lowest common denominator, or to just view life through black and white tinted glasses!

  • As Philip K Dick once put it, “The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words,
    you can control the people who must use the words.”

    And Orwell had his “newspeak”.

  • Nic (and Rad) when Hamas were democratically elected in free and fair elections the US and Israel spat the dummy, armed Fatah and sent them on their way after Hamas, thing is Hamas kicked their arse.

    Lets face it people like yourselves are pig ignorant! You’re reduced to the tactics of Bolt, ie when your narrow world view is challenged (by stuff that the likes of Bolt would never write about) you resort to labeling others as supporters of terrorism.

    The siege of Falujah was an act of terrorism, I bet both Nic and Rad supported it. Ignorant hypocrites.

  • “the only thing i can say is it must be fucking wonderful to live in a world where everything can be reduced down to the most simplistic, lowest common denominator, or to just view life through black and white tinted glasses!”

    It’d certainly mean reading and soaking up a lot less news and information. And far less troubling for the mind and morals. But even The Professional Idiot would have to be unnerved by the number of his readers who say they won’t read any other media now but his, because it’s all full of Green Hitler lies and Evil Pagan Lefty propaganda.

  • Yeah, Darryl. A lot on Bolts’ blog has said time and time again they only get the news from him. The idiots don’t realise that Bolt gets all his news from the evil lefty commo media himself.

  • “the only thing i can say is it must be fucking wonderful to live in a world where everything can be reduced down to the most simplistic, lowest common denominator, or to just view life through black and white tinted glasses!”

    That’s meaningless. “Lowest common denominator” doesn’t have meaning you are trying to ascribe to it. Maybe you meant “simplist terms”? You can’t have white tinted glasses. If you looked at life through black and white tinted glasses, you’d see everything in various shades of gray. I think that has the opposite meaning of what you are looking for.

    You are an aplogist for terrorism if you seek out the root causes of terrorism and come up with it was the victims fault. You are also an apologist for terrorism if you ignore the religious reasons that the terrorists give for committing their terrorist and focus on poverty instead. Either that, or desperately trying to fit things into your view of the world as a struggle between labour and capital.

  • “You are an aplogist for terrorism if you seek out the root causes of terrorism and come up with it was the victims fault.”

    That’s pissweak. Who blames the commuters of Mumbai for getting mowed down in the train station? Nobody.

    But Nic, do you agree that all bombings are acts of terrorism, because they cause terror to the people who are under, or next, to the bombs that detonate? I’ve heard Australian members of WW2’s Bomber Command describe their incendiary attacks on wooden German towns as acts of terrorism. Do you think these old men, who had decades to reflect on their actions, are deluded or wrong?

    Even Bush doesn’t call Al Qaeda ‘terrorists’ anymore, or not as often as he used to (”extremist” and “radical” being his preferred describer).

  • I forgot, Daryl, thanks for reminding me. People who practice moral equivalence are also apologists for terror. We did it as part of a war of national survival, so we cannot condemn religious nutters who attack innocent civilians. Nice.

  • Who said we can’t condemn religious nutters who attack innocent civilians? I see nothing but condemnation, and rightly so. Do you regard Jewish settlers who burn Palestinian homes and shoot Palestinian civilians (on purpose) as terrorists?

    “People who practice moral equivalence are also apologists for terror.”

    Nice, so the guilt-ridden World War 2 Bomber Command pilots I referred to above are apologists for terror now are they? Is that what you’re really saying there? You have a sick mind if you are.

    And also, do you agree or not that bombing civilians causes terror to those who are bombed, and is therefore a form of terrorism?

  • You’re getting dangerously close to “You’re either with us or against us” Nic. Is that your intention?

  • lowest common denominator:

    you’re either with us or against us.
    you’re an apologist for terrorists if you seek to prevent terrorism.
    people who practice moral equivalence are also apologists for terrorists.

    or alternatively, simplistic black vs white, or viewing the world through black and white tinted glasses. thank you nic, you’ve demonstrated my point nicely.

  • Confessions : I can predict exactly what you will say about any given issue that appears on this site. You are utterly predictable. This isn’t necessarily a criticism. Make of it what you will. However, for you to claim someone views the world “through black and white tinted glasses” and to slam them on that point is laughable. To paraphrase a famous saying, its like the blinkered criticising the blinkered. A truly wise person would see this.

  • “Confessions : I can predict exactly what you will say about any given issue that appears on this site.”

    Sure you can.

    “Make of it what you will. However, for you to claim someone views the world “through black and white tinted glasses” and to slam them on that point is laughable.”

    Yeah right, I make a differentiation between Hamas, Hezbollah and al Qaeda and all of a sudden I’m an apologist for terrorists, just because I’m less ignorant, thus tempting the likes of Nic and Rad to show their true colours – You’re either with us or you’re with the terrorists. (That’s the black and white view of your typical ignorant Boltard.)

    Yes, I know I’m not confessions but this whole terrorist apologist shit came about because I can see there is a difference between the groups previously mentioned.

    It’s the Boltards who are predictable!

  • “Confessions : I can predict exactly what you will say about any given issue that appears on this site.”

    says the person who’s only contributions to this thread have been to slag off at me. that’s nothing if not predictable.

  • “says the person who’s only contributions to this thread have been to slag off at me. that’s nothing if not predictable.”

    If Daics could predict what you were going to write then why didn’t he make that post before you? LOL!

    An extra LOL for Daics, just because he’s magic, and just because I know that LOL’s elicit violent responses from Daics… LOL

  • While you’re having a go at people for being predictable Daics, how about RadMatt? Will he back Bolt or not? Will he take the kneejerk Right-wing position on any issue or not? Will he call his howlers typos? Will he claim he is being sarcastic when caught out saying something preposterous? We await your judgement.

  • “The antonym of a polemic source is an apologia.” from the wikipedia entry for polemic.

    This whole apologist speil is just a load of rot and says far more about the world view of a polemic writer. Bolt is a polemic writer.

    btw: An apologia is a written promotion of a religious ideal. So the argument of painting terrorism commentators as apologists isn’t so much “You’re with us or you’re against us” but more “You’re with us or you’re promoting terrorism.”

  • There are, apparently, only two alternatives. You either make excuses for terrorists, or you believe in violently smashing the crap out of them because they can’t be reasoned with. If you seek to understand the nature of their grievance and do something to address it, you are merely pandering to them and encouraging them to do more of the same. Then when we do get more of the same, the smash the crap brigade blame “the Left” for “sending the wrong signal” when the real blame lies with those who believe it has no fundamental cause other than the evil intentions of its perpetrators.

  • What are these root causes? What causes them other than the evil intentions of the perpetrators? Try to come up with a root cause that would cause them to devote 20% of their man-power in hunting down, torturing and killing Jews in a community centre dedicated to helping the Mumbai poor.

  • Nic, they couldve been responding to the IDF and their senseless killing of children in the Gaza strip or any number of things the Israelis do to piss ordinary citizens off on a daily basis. You have to ask yourself WHY they have these evil intentions. They didnt just wake up one day, feeling more evil than they did the day before, and decide to go about on a rampage. Some event or other has contributed to this mindset. Bolt is an obfuscator, wishing to divert attention away from the real possibility that it is something we did that made them want to take revenge on us. Thats why he always attacks John Pilger, to stop you from going away and reading what the man himself has to say on the matter.

  • What are these root causes? What causes them other than the evil intentions of the perpetrators? Try to come up with a root cause that would cause them to devote 20% of their man-power in hunting down, torturing and killing Jews in a community centre dedicated to helping the Mumbai poor.

    Here’s one framework for thinking about how we end up at the point where a person would do such a thing (full text available as a PDF here).

    Unless you argue that these people were inevitably born evil, then it is worth asking what combination of personal characteristics and environmental factors make a person likely to reach the point where they would commit a terrorist act. It also allows us to look for ways to prevent people from reaching that point (the top of the staircase in Moghaddam’s theory).

  • Dom – the Jewish people who were killed were not Israelis. They were, in fact, against the existence of the modern State of Israel.

    You have to ask why a person of Indian or Pakistani descent would even care about the actions of Israel sufficient enough to kill jewish people wherever they could find them. The only cause you can ascribe is extremist religious dogma. Not poverty, no economic opportunities or whatever bug-bear others may try to ascribe.

    Tobias – that is useful and very different to ascribing the causes of terror to factors like globalisation, uneven economic development or alleged criminal actions of a government half a continent away.

  • “You have to ask why a person of Indian or Pakistani descent would even care about the actions of Israel sufficient enough to kill jewish people wherever they could find them.’

    One would have to wonder why you’re so interested in the Jews? Especially since you’re so blase about the plight of Palestinians. Me, I value life regardless of race/ethnicity/culture.

    “. The only cause you can ascribe is extremist religious dogma. Not poverty, no economic opportunities or whatever bug-bear others may try to ascribe.”

    In your black and white world maybe. I would contend that poverty is the root cause. Religion, that’s just the badge!

  • “the Jewish people who were killed were not Israelis. ”

    So why are they being buried in Israel?

    “Requests by Mr Teitelbaum’s family that his coffin should not be covered by the Israeli flag were rejected.”

    Good old Israel – sod you’re wishes, the flag is going on the coffin!

  • “One would have to wonder why you’re so interested in the Jews? Especially since you’re so blase about the plight of Palestinians. Me, I value life regardless of race/ethnicity/culture”

    Me too, but the topic of this thread is dealing with the attack in Mumbai, which I suspect is why Nic is referring to the Jews who were killed — all 9 of whom were indeed Israelis..

    The captured terrorist reportedly said the Jewish boarding house was specifically targetted in response to Israeli actions in Palestine..I, like Nic am not sure what Palestine has to do with Lashkar-e-Toiba either, the only link I can see is the shared religion.

  • Gavin, Rob

    The specific concern that I have with the attack on the Jewish centre is two-fold (other than the general concern for all the victims of the attack).

    Firstly it shows that the attack was an attack on Western targets (which was one of the points we were discussing earlier).

    Secondly, it shows that the attack cannot be explained away in terms of poverty or anything other than religious bigotry. This is reinforced by the reports of torture, which, if true, further confirm that special attention were paid to these victims which can only be explained in religious terms.

    These people were not attacked because the terrorists grew up in a poor environment. They were attacked because the terrorists ascribed to certain extremist religious views.

    No matter how much certain people on the left want to make this even fit their narrative of poverty, class warfare etc – it is never going to fit.

  • Gavin, when you say “the only link I can see is the shared religion” you seem to be discounting this as a factor. These are people who feel a deep sense of connection with their religion and with the global “brotherhood” of Islam. This is somewhat foreign to the Western mind because it has been at least a century since such religious commitment has been widespread in our culture.

    Nevertheless, we all – or most of us – feel a sense of belonging to one group or another, even if it is only the family, and if we sincerely believe an atrocity or violation has been done to that group, we very naturally feel a desire to put that violation to rights. If we have the power to deal with it by using conventional military or policing methods, then we will usually do so. If we don’t have that power, we will take the law into our own hands. That is what powerless human beings have always done, and what they will always do, sooner or later.

    Trying to find an answer to terrorism by condemning the response to injustice and ignoring the injustice itself is doomed to fail. This is not just about poverty – it is about violence, it is about oppression, it is about exploitation, it is about centuries of injustice. It is also about religious fundamentalism, intolerance and ignorance, on all sides. It is not a simple matter to find answers, but at the very least we should be looking in the right places.

  • “Secondly, it shows that the attack cannot be explained away in terms of poverty or anything other than religious bigotry.”

    So Israel’s attacks on Palestinians is bigotry? It isn’t poverty. I’d wager every IDF soldier and every Zionist politician share the same religion. I’d wager the targets are invariably Muslim.

    It’s so easy to pinpoint a single factor such as religion, I just did it. Here goes I’ll do it again. Why did Irish Catholics want to blow up British Protestants? Religion? Nah, poverty.

    I think you dismiss the impact of poverty too easily. You so want to blame Islam, rather than the criminal individuals that carried out the crime.

  • RobJ – the IDF contains people from many religious backgrounds, including Christians and Muslims and people of no-religion.

    I don’t want to blam Islam – just the extreme and nasty form practiced by the terrorists. The question of why the particular individuals were recruited probably has a lot to do with poverty/mental illness or other causes that would detach a person from society. But that doesn’t explain why the attack occurred or the reasons individual targets were selected.

  • Andy is now asking Hugh J to provide the names of 10 members of the Stolen Generation.

    [Andy naturally doesn't spell out his caveat on this: They have to be proved to be removed purely on racial grounds - i.e. if Andy finds that they were living in anything less than 1st world conditions he merely adjudges that they were removed in their best interests...]

    The War on Australia continues…

  • Why do honourable people continue to deal with Bolt? Why not just let him disappear into the margins of society where he belongs? He has a congenital incapacity for empathy, and we should stop trying to cure him of it.

  • Hello Bob,

    I was thinking along the lines of why LeT would care about Israel/Palestine, but, as Rob says above it no doubt is a case of them identifying with fellow Muslims who they see as being oppressed.

    It’s a bitter irony that the Israelis they killed were in Mumbai helping the poor of the city.

  • “Root causes” in any discussion of terrorism seems to inevitably result in accusations of apologetics for, or support of, terrorism.

    It’s quite incomphrehensible really.

    I think that we can all agree that we don’t want innocent civilians to die. Yet, the critique of “root causes” seems to completely ignore that this discussion has as its goal the prevention of terrorism. And I don’t mean the kind of knee-jerk prevention much in vogue amongst those same critics, which is hunting down the terrorists and shooting them before they shot us.

    The best kind of prevention is the one that reduces the number of people who would want to terrorise anyone else.

    And this is what the “root causes” approach addresses. Identify the points of leverage for extremist recruitment and remove them. Now I agree that poverty is not a cause of terrorism in the direct sense, but it is one in a generic sense. Groups can use poverty as a recruitment tool. Indonesia provides a good example. Some Islmaic groups have stepped into the void left by the state to provide their own schools. For those with no access to govt schools and no means to access private education, free Islamic schools are a saviour. And this is an opening they can use to establish their credentials and later, recruit supporters.

    Unresolved injustices can be manipulated in the same way. Lashkar e-tayyiba started as a group fighting for the liberation of Kashmir. And by all accounts, was unusual in that it eschewed all attacks on civilians. It’s changed a good deal since then, but no doubt it continues to use the widespread dissatisfaction with the situation in Kashmir to recruit adherents. Palestine is the same. An unresolved conflict serving as a highly effective motivational tool.

    Remove these grievances and leverage points and the extremists groups become much smaller with a far smaller base of support in their community/region. And these groups are much like a guerilla insurgency – they need a degree of local support to be effective. The attacks in Mumbai would have been much more difficult to co-ordinate without a base of support/sympathisers in India.

    At this point, someone usualy pipes up and says that we shouldn’t give in to threats, or ‘negotiate with terrorists’. Red herring. The issue is that we do what we know is right and needs to be done – and that is resolving conflicts that have seriously negative human consequences. We don’t refuse to do the right thing because people we don’t like want us to do those things. The added benefit is that those same people we dislike, suddenly find themselves increasingly irrelevant, isolated and impotent.

  • No matter how much certain people on the left want to make this even fit their narrative of poverty, class warfare etc – it is never going to fit.” – Nic

    The award for biggest straw-man of this thread goes to Nic for the leftist “class-warfare” invention.

    Congrats!

  • Michael – I wasn’t attempting to create a straw man. Class and poverty go hand in hand.

  • “He has a congenital incapacity for empathy” – BadBob.

    from the comments thread of the hugh jacknam name 10 post DeanL was refering:

    “John of Vic replied to Dave from Perth
    Mon 08 Dec 08 (01:47pm)
    More than astonishing Dave, it’s tragic. Jackman has just walked over the graves of everyone who ever tried to help the Aborigines survive as a race. The clash of cultures decimated the Aborigines and the only way to save them was for the whites to step in. They did and they did their best. I am only glad most of them are not around to hear their reputations and good names trashed by film producers and movie stars.”

    never mind that aboriginals were racially vilified, raped, murdered, subject to barbaric scientific experiments, subject to racist laws and had their children stolen. what really count are the oppressors who tried to help them. this post would be funny if it wasn’t for these facts. actually vilification of aboriginals can still be found on any of andy’s posts about them. if only andy’s sheep would stop trying to be victims all the time…

    strangely there is a sameness in lack of empathy of thinking of aboriginals that there is by nic and rad of palestinians. palestinians have only themselves to blame. israel tried to help them but because they leftist, terrorist, chardonnay sipping, socialist, latte lovers palestinians can’t turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other. right rad?

    “Why do honourable people continue to deal with Bolt?”

    i don’t know except that most honourable people don’t deal with bolt.

    but have a look at todays hugh jackman thread to see evidence of honourable people trying to reason with the rightards about stolen aboriginals to no avail, all they do is increase the comments. andy chimes in to abuse certain commenters, increasing comments even more but by in large it’s a giant rightard fuckfest.

  • some background reading for Nic & Rad about the taliban, US foreing policy and the US arming and funding extremism:

    http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2008/12/by-eric-martin.html

  • OT, but since there are no open threads here…

    ‘Australia’ is clearly an Evil Pagan Lefty conspiracy to make white Australia of the 1930s and 1940s look more Nasty & Evil than they eugenically were. Any sensible, clear-minded BoltBot can see that.

    So who majority-funded the making of this country’s most expensive film ever, which is apparently filled with so many gregarious lies that Americans won’t come here for their holidays? Who’s the main man okaying the spending of more than $140 million to see this film through to completion?

    Oh, right.

    Since James Cameron went hugely over-budget with Titanic, Rupert Murdoch keeps tabs on any Fox films that are budgeted beyond (last time I heard) $80 or so million. He is directly involved when a director comes looking for another $10 or $20 million beyond the original budget, like Cameron did. If Titanic had bombed instead of boomed, Murdoch would have been cleaned out. He keeps a close eye on the mega-spending of his film divisions, and rightly so.

    So Murdoch himself knew exactly what was going to be included in ‘Australia’, including the Stolen Generations plot-line that so mortifies The Professional Idiot. Do you think TPI would ever dare take it up with his boss? HA!

    After all, if Murdoch didn’t sign off on the original ‘Australia’ budget, and the reshoots/additionals, the movie would likely never have been made, let alone released.

    In all the righteous fury of the BoltBots, few if any have (been allowed) pointed out this blindingly obvious fact. Murdoch funded ‘Australia’, and got back a fair chunk of his investment through tax rebates, before the movie even hit cinema screens. TPI’s boss is turning a profit off the ‘Stolen Generations Propaganda’ that so outrages Boltbots, and these profits in turn ensure that The Professional Idiot remains Australia’s highest paid blogger (for now).

    Fantastic!

  • Confessions, I’ve been very civil with you. There is no need to degenerate into that level of abuse or Rad and myself in your comment. If you had a valid point, perhaps you would not need to express yourself in such a way.

  • Nice irony Darryl.

  • Nic, I think that comment was directed more at RadMatt. He deserves all he gets. He makes no effort whatsoever to be civil, honest or sensible. The only thing he adds to this blog is unintended humour. Which is no small thing, I should add.

  • strangely there is a sameness in lack of empathy of thinking of aboriginals that there is by nic and rad of palestinians. palestinians have only themselves to blame. israel tried to help them but because they leftist, terrorist, chardonnay sipping, socialist, latte lovers palestinians can’t turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other. right rad

    You really are a piece of work Confessions. You are so ideologically self-righteous that you put the religious right to shame.

    I have never said the Palestinians have only themselves to blame. I have said that the Palestine have Hamas to blame. The Palestinians are the victims of Hamas who continue to rage their pathological genocide against Israel. They are only interested in the complete annihilation of Israel.

    Until Hamas can learn to live in peace with Israel, the Palestinian people will suffer and they will be prevented from any chance of prosperity in the future.

    Confessions do you support Hama’s policy of total annihilation of Israel via a campaign of suicide bombers? Do you think that it is OK for Hamas to exploit children to use them as suicide bombers in their campaign to annihilate Israel?

  • Nic: if anyone has been abusive it is you by calling others apologists for terrorists. given robj has shown how much you seem to base your knowledge of the israel-palestine conflict on the kind of facile, simplistic information delivered through blair/bolt, i’m not surprised to see your final tactic seems to be resorting to the “your being abusive” game. i know this tactic is beneath you and so just this time i’ll pretend i haven’t seen your comment.

  • Could you tell me your poor ?….. yet we speak to each other from opposite sides of the World.

  • “I have never said the Palestinians have only themselves to blame.”

    yet you are quite happy with this recent comment of yours:

    “They [the palestinians] have every opportunity to turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other”

    in other words, they have only themselves to blame for their current dispair.

  • i’m not surprised to see your final tactic seems to be resorting to the “your being abusive” game

    In the same breath you say this.

    Nic: if anyone has been abusive it is you by calling others apologists for terrorists.

    LMAO _ Do you even read what you post confessions.

  • “by calling others apologists for terrorists.”

    And I’m an anti Semite according to Nic. He wont say it but he did say that anyone who dares make comparisons between Zionists and the Nazis is an anti Semite.

    I’ve made such comparisons but deny that I’m an anti Semite.

    It’s typical Boltard stuff, smear the opposition because the facts don’t support their argument.

  • “They [the palestinians] have every opportunity to turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other”
    in other words, they have only themselves to blame for their current dispair

    Nice try confessions but you are wrong.

    Next time you need to stop being deceptive.

  • Confessions do you support Hama’s policy of total annihilation of Israel via a campaign of suicide bombers? Do you think that it is OK for Hamas to exploit children to use them as suicide bombers in their campaign to annihilate Israel?

    Idiotic Strawman Questions (ISQs) were uniquely MM’s stock-in-trade. And RadP still denies he’s MightyMatt!

    Why are you such a lying prat, Mighty Matt.

  • Rad,

    Go away, grown ups are arguing, grown ups who actually have a clue unlike yourself who said:

    “They [the palestinians] have every opportunity to turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other”

    LOL – I cannot believe somebody who is so ignorant participates in such threads. You have no shame.

  • Idiotic Strawman Questions (ISQs) were uniquely MM’s stock-in-trade. And RadP still denies he’s MightyMatt!
    Why are you such a lying prat, Mighty Matt.

    LMAO

    So DeaniaL is your mythical Matt the only person in history to ask such a question?

    You are really getting desperate now DeaniaL. What next? OMG I used a full stop in my sentence! DeaniaL thinks that I must be his mythical Matt.

    So is Matt the name of an exlover that kicked you to the curb when he was done with you?

  • Confessions, I doubt I would use a tactic as misspelled as “your being abusive”.

    RobJ – we thrashed out issue of comparisons between israel and nazis on a different thread. I thought it was clear that we came to the conclusion that the particular comparisons you were making were insensitive in the extreme, but not anti-semitic.

  • Ha Ha ,I still believe I live In a Democracy……………………………………..

  • RobJ: i think Nic is female. i don’t know why i think this, just have a hunch.

    “Idiotic Strawman Questions (ISQs) were uniquely MM’s stock-in-trade”

    Rad’s stupid question was akin to the same black and white, good vs evil, with us or against us shit that has been so discredited on this thread.

  • The Palestinians are the victims of Hamas who continue to rage their pathological genocide against Israel. They are only interested in the complete annihilation of Israel. ” – ‘lil Pip

    I do see some rage and pathology here, but it’s not where ‘lil Pip suggests.

  • Dean (and others), whether or not Rad is Matt is hardly relevant, is it? Rad and Matt are not posting on the same thread – so there is no sockpuppetry involved.

    Either:
    (a) Rad is Matt – in which case your point has been well made, but you are never going to be able to prove it and Rad is never going to admit it, so you might as well let it go; or
    (b) Rad is not Matt – in which case, you might as well let it go.

    Let Rad call himself whatever he likes and debate the topic, not the person. I’m sure that if you stop raising the Matt issue, Rad will stop calling you Deanial.

  • You concluded that, you would, you’re a Zionist. I still maintain that the wanton destruction of civillian sewerage infrastructure is collective punishment The forced removal of people from their land is akin to the behavior of the Nazis.

    “insensitive in the extreme,”

    Only because you place little value on the lives of impoverished Palestinians. You’re insensitive in the extreme if you excuse the IDF for what they did in Jenin!

    BTW Nic, see those disgusting redneck settlers misbehaving the other day? They got kicked out (because they were breaking the law) then they went off and beat the shit out of the local Palestinians. Why does the Zionist state of Isreal tolerate the breaches of the settler shit stirrers?

    Why don’t they just shoot or bomb the settlers, they wouldn’t think twice to shoot if they were Palestinians.

    Also Nic, did you condemn the IDF for littering their neighbor with cluster munitions recently?

  • Confessions, I’ve said a number of times – I’m a man. I’m not sure why this comes up so often.

  • Rad’s stupid question was akin to the same black and white, good vs evil, with us or against us shit that has been so discredited on this thread
    – Confessions

    No confessions. I am trying to determine what your opinion is of the methods of hamas. You are quick to jump to the defence of the Palestinians when anyone criticises the actions of Hamas or other Palestinian organisations. Given that Hamas’ tactics have such a major impact in the political landscape of the region, I am curious to know how you feel about Hamas’ own tactics. Especially given that you are so quick to throw around the racist tag. Hamas is an organisation that is racist to the core, given that they want total annihilation of Israel and it’s people.

    Let Rad call himself whatever he likes and debate the topic, not the person. I’m sure that if you stop raising the Matt issue, Rad will stop calling you Deanial.
    – Nic

    I have suspected all along nic that Might matt is a tactic that people like DeanL use when they cannot win the debate. It is a sloppy way for them to close down debate.

    You are correct that I will continue to use the name DeaniaL for DeanL as long as he calls me Matt.

  • Opps………………. wrong page.

  • oh sorry Nic! (blush)

    as i said i don’t know why i thought you were female.

  • RobJ – I didn’t see the abuse of Palestinians, but I did see the State of Israel evicting the settlers at gunpoint from the building they were occupying. Considering that they claim to have a valid legal title to the place (a matter which is before the Courts and of which I know nothing more than the claim), I don’t see that as Israel tolerating their behaviour. Do you?

  • Confessions – no problem. I had to make the same statement a couple times now on earlier threads (I’m not expecting you to have read them in full – seeing as there are maybe 300 comments a week here). I don’t know why I come across as female. Not that there is anything wrong with that, of course.

  • “You are quick to jump to the defence of the Palestinians when anyone criticises the actions of Hamas or other Palestinian organisations. ”

    more lies. when Rad? when have i made such statements? this isn’t the first time you’ve attribute comments to me that i haven’t made is it?

  • “(a matter which is before the Courts and of which I know nothing more than the claim”

    The courts said they don’t.

    “don’t see that as Israel tolerating their behaviour. Do you?”

    As long as they let Settlers build more or even live in the occupied territories they are supporting the Settlers. Have they bulldozed all the illegal settlements yet? (didn’t think so)

    Now Nic, had Palestinians been occupying the house what would have happened? Bulldozer anybody (armoured bulldozer) Missile? Bomb or just bullets.

    “I didn’t see the abuse of Palestinians,”

    You never do, even when it occurs you deny it. (like the collective punishment in Jenin)

    “I don’t see that as Israel tolerating their behaviour. Do you?”

    Israel doesn’t blink when it’s a Muslim – Dead! Why didn’t they kill the settlers, that’s their usual MO.