By Tobias Ziegler
The world’s attention is focused on the horrific terrorist attacks in Mumbai. Although the situation is not settled, the final death toll is not known, and the gunmen continue to hold hostages, a natural question has arisen – who are the attackers and why did they do it? Foreign policy commentators are noting something about the expert wisdom regarding these events:
An interesting article by Alan Cowell and Mark McDonald in today’s New York Times reveals an inconvenient truth about analysts who study terrorism: they often have wildly divergent views about the same events.
Fortunately, we have Andrew Bolt on the ground in Melbourne. He knows exactly what is going on – and he tells us about it in today’s column. It is “An attack on us all.” Thanks to our intrepid and insightful columnist, we know the following:
- The attacks targeted places where Westerners and Jews in India are likely to be – thus, it was an attack on the West.
- The attacks were probably carried out by “al-Qaida or associated Islamist groups” – because they hate the West.
- Responsibility for the attacks has been claimed by a previously unheard-of group named the “Deccan Mujahideen”, which some experts have suggested may be the same group as the “Indian Mujahideen”. But these local groups don’t have the resources or organisation to pull off an attack of this magnitude.
- The aim of the attack “seems to be to split the country from the West.”
- This is not George W. Bush’s fault. These attacks are the exception that prove the rule – terrorist attacks have dropped since 9/11. These devastating and brutal attacks in India are a sign of Al Qaeda’s desperation as they are reduced to focusing on the “easier target” of India.
- The only way these attacks will end is for all Muslims to love freedom and be horrified by the notion of jihad.
Now, let’s be clear. It is plausible that at least some of Bolt’s assertions about the attacks will turn out to be right. As the attackers are neutralised and identified, a clearer picture of who is directly responsible, why they carried out the attacks, and what (if any) support they had from international organisations will emerge.
But the degree of uncertainty and the number of competing theories out there at the moment highlight something – terrorism and international relations are exceedingly complex issues. There are many radical groups in the world, with many different motivations. These attacks may relate to the dispute over the Kashmir region; they may relate to internal rifts within India; and they may have some connection to groups who want to see Westerners die.
But for an Australian writer to boil all of this down to a global conflict between two irreoncilable groups – “the West” and Islam – is foolish. It does not give one’s readers a genuine understanding of why these particular atrocities were committed by these particular people at this particular time. What’s more, it disregards the fact that “the West” are not the only people affected by this – while Australians and others have been killed in these attacks, so have people from India – and they have been dying in bombings that have occurred regularly in recent times. This is happening on their streets; even those who are not victims of the violence are affected by it. To sit in one’s office in Melbourne and tell everyone that this is all about us is both arrogant and ignorant.
In short, my impression of Bolt’s column is this – it’s a complex world out there, and Andrew Bolt’s mind is far too simple to do it justice.
1,141 Comments
29 November, 2008 at 7:32 am
As horrific as the attacks are, what’s equally disturbing is the reductive rhetroic that terrorism unleashes in fundamentalist (sic) commentators like Bolt — it’s “the forces of evil against those who love freedom”, the sort of mind-numbing tosh we had to endure for years after 9/11.
29 November, 2008 at 8:27 am
in today paper pakistani terrorist group are said to be responsible and is backed up by indian government. but yeah let’s wait to see results of investigation before jumping in boots and all and declaring the motivations before the authorities.
29 November, 2008 at 8:30 am
[...] The filtering of these attacks through the prism of Islam vs The West. I have already said more about this at TBBWP. [...]
29 November, 2008 at 8:51 am
How far do you need to have your head up your arse to see these attacks as “an attack on us”?
Sorry Bolty, but as incredibly important as we westerners are, maybe western targets in India were just a means to an end for the attackers.
29 November, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Great point. My only complaint is that I wish you’d say who writes what post.
Bolt also made an idiotic post the other day about Guantanamo Bay. He said that most of the people there were alleged to have committed acts of terrorism. Therefore, Obama wanting to shut it down (“to the cheers of journalists”) is bad.
I don’t think he’s realised that just because they’ve allegedly committed a crime, they aren’t necessarily guilty.
29 November, 2008 at 2:49 pm
Stakes, until your comment, I hadn’t actually noticed that the WordPress template TBBWP uses doesn’t list the post’s author. I wrote this one.
I saw that Gitmo post, and had the same thought as you. I also don’t think he’s realised that if they have solid evidence that a detainee was involved in carrying out or planning crimes, then it might be appropriate to charge and try them – and after their conviction, nobody is going to argue about their imprisonment.
29 November, 2008 at 3:26 pm
There was one of those “why hasnt Jill Singer piped up and blamed George W for the attacks already” letters in todays Hun. Ill do it. If Pakistan is responsible then George W is to blame for backing Musharraf and his cronies (who are no doubt shielding Osama from capture). Damn Americans.
29 November, 2008 at 5:48 pm
Holler Out by Bolt:
Another warning that Britain now has an export industry in jihadists:
It is too early to tell whether British-born Pakistanis were among the Mumbai terrorists, Gordon Brown said today in response to claims that at least two Britons were involved.
Holler Back by Dr John:
As a Scot, I would simply point out that the Pakis from Leeds are not British at all, other than that they may have been born in the UK. There are ethnically Asian and culturally Islamic, the latter by choice. They have also chosen terror. Most people in Britain would tell you all of this was on the cards for years, and that the UK government was foolish to let so many Muslims in. Enoch Powell said as much in 1968, and he was right.
Britain’s terrorist problem is not ‘home-grown’ but rather imported from Pakistan. Ordinary British people were given no choice in this.
Dr John (Reply)
Sat 29 Nov 08 (09:07am)
It is too early to know the truth but obviously not too early to print some gossip. And not too early to use an unconfirmed report to stir up some cheers for a personal cause.
29 November, 2008 at 10:17 pm
Shorter (last 7 years of) Bolt:
The answer is Al-Qaeda. What was the question?
29 November, 2008 at 10:41 pm
I’m sure many of the hundred or more local commmuters who were gunned down at the train station died thinking ‘You know, this isn’t just an attack on us, it’s an attack on Australians too’.
The Professional Idiot has a truly fucked mind.
30 November, 2008 at 11:02 am
Like all orthodoxial ideologues, Bolt’s pontifications and tribal rhetoric about the issues involved in Mumbai, as with most complex international issues, is akin to someone trying to place a square peg in a round hole. Ostensibly, the more educated one becomes in international relations, the less likely they are too take up simplified and generalised positions, and spout out tribal rhetoric.
Tribal cheerleading and incessant attempts to utilise complex international issues too bash ones perceived political opponents and engage in culture war type rhetoric, are foreign behavioural traits for people that really understand issues of international relations.
30 November, 2008 at 11:11 am
“If we refused to notice or react, thinks the Left, maybe they’ll go away.”
What an utterly meaningless and useless statement. Bolt’s amateurism, lack of maturity, lack of understanding and lack of any sort of contribution to adult debate, resonates on a daily basis, across most of the subjects he covers with his dribble.
30 November, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Gee fancy that nasty Mr Bolt expressing some solidarity with the Indians. Of course left wing columnists never ever express any sort of an opinion about foriegn policy until every shred of evidence is presented in a court of law.
Sorry but if the terrorists tried to identify the Americans and Brits and you attacked the hotels they frequent the odds of this being an attack on the West are north of 90%. Terribly annoying isn’t it.
If you are going to complain about Bolt and Blair find something material.
30 November, 2008 at 1:47 pm
“If you are going to complain about Bolt and Blair find something material.”
Which universe do you inhabit sir?
30 November, 2008 at 2:58 pm
“Sorry but if the terrorists tried to identify the Americans and Brits and you attacked the hotels they frequent the odds of this being an attack on the West are north of 90%. Terribly annoying isn’t it.” – Kingsley.
As well considered and thougtfully argued as a brick through a window.
The terrorists were looking for maximal imapct, and picking tourists/foreigners was clearly a winning strategy. There have been plenty of other attacks in India over the last few years, but I doubt any have got anything like the media attention of this. And what were the demands that we know of so far from them – the release of their jailed supporters. This seems to be a local Indian internal matter with foreigners targetted for utilitarian reasons.
It’s only an “attack on the west” for the utterly self-absorbed.
30 November, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Yeah I think you two (Kingsley and Michael) are onto something there.
It would be good if someone were to ask them whether it was a western thing, or an internal thing using westerners as a media tool, or both… or something else we have yet to consider.
30 November, 2008 at 3:26 pm
Yeah, how about an an attack on hotels.
They clearly attacked 2 major hotels and the people who use them.
I think they hate hotels for their freedom.
30 November, 2008 at 3:46 pm
You’re right, they’re just jealous of the hotels. They try to play it cool, but we all know they’ve resented Oberoi’s gangsta style and badass threads from the very beginning.
Really terrorists… don’t hate the player, hate the game.
30 November, 2008 at 8:34 pm
Also, the terrorists attacked the major financial areas of the city, which is where foreign tourists tend to stay.
But then, Bolt sees EVERYTHING through a Left/Right prism.
30 November, 2008 at 8:47 pm
from his “Mumbai still bleeding” piece (yesterday) about reports 2 british nationals had involved in attacks:
“UPDATE 2: Another warning that Britain now has an export industry in jihadists:”
does it get any more alarmist? britain finds a new export commodity: jihadits FFS!
fortunately some sense from the ABC:
“According to British media reports, Indian television news channel NDTV reported that “British citizens of Pakistani origin” were among the attackers who stormed two luxury Mumbai hotels and other key targets on Wednesday. However these reports have since been denied.”
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/11/30/2433631.htm
once again andy jumps on the alarmist bandwagon and once again ends up looking like the thanksgiving turkey that keeps on giving.
30 November, 2008 at 11:14 pm
The list of victims confirms Bolts “attack on the west” thesis.
Of the near 200 victims,
US – 6
Aus – 2
Canadian – 2
French – 2
UK – 1
German- 1
Israeli -1
Singaporean – 1
Thai – 1
Italian – 1
Japanese – 1
As you can see this was clearly an attack on the west. The murderous terrorists specifically targetted westerners. Though it seems that they were poor shots, as a number of other unspecified types of people were also killed.
1 December, 2008 at 8:28 am
I suspect that this is sort of a copy of the Bali bombings — there’s no doubt that the best way to generate mass world publicity for whatever terrorist cause is to target tourist areas, after all as was mentioned above, bombings have been going on in India for years with barely a passing mention in the Western media, this however, will probably be in the front of the newspapers for weeks…
An attack on the West ? Maybe….although only in as much as Bali was an attack on the West…More an attack on what the terrorists perceive to be their own country’s moral decadence in catering to the “sins” of foreign tourists.
As to who is responsible, obviously time will tell, I believe only one of the terrorists survived, allegedly a Pakistani national, I heard on this morning’s news that India was blaming the Pakistani government, who were of course denying it — no surprises there.
1 December, 2008 at 8:41 am
Tobias,
I don’t understand your article. How can you argue that at least one of the aims of this was not to split India from the West? Clearly, attacking hotels frequented by foreigner and a Jewish centre in one of the most westernised areas of India must have some purpose. If they solely wanted to kill Indians, they could have gone to many other parts of the country. No, it is clear that this attack will damage relations between India and the West at a minimum because Western tourists will think twice about going there. This will obviously have an economic impact on India.
And lastly, if this wasn’t an attack on the West – how do you explain the terrorists specifically targetting British and Americans?
Clearly, it was in part an attack on the West. That is not the only reason for the attack – but it is clearly one of the reasons.
Do you (and your commentators) so hate Bolt that you would criticise him for anything? Even when the liberal media appear to agree that one of the aims is to end India’s push into globalisation:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/30/mumbai-terror-attacks-india1
1 December, 2008 at 8:46 am
I tried to post this link before, but my comment seems to have been swallowed. GavinM – this article in the Guardian clearly supports the notion that this was a step up from the earlier bombings in that it specifically targeted westerners – in part to weaken India’s ties with the West.
Both Bali and this can be catergorised as, in part, both attacks on both Westerners and Hindus.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/30/mumbai-terror-attacks-india1
1 December, 2008 at 10:20 am
His post today is appalling – smearing the “left” and planting a seed in the minds of his readers by insinuating that the “left” are going to apologise for/support the Mumbai terrorists :
“Before some in the Left prepare their standard apologias, arguments of moral relativism or appeals for negotations, consider this about the Mumbai terrorists”…..
Then anyone who points out “that’s a bit rough” gets slammed by his disciples …”But you love David Hicks !!! Therefore you love the Mumbai terrorists !! You drink Kool Aid!!”
Someone asked Bolt to provide proof that the “left” support terrorism …and he has put up a list of links in response. I suspect they are links to radical conspiracy sites ? Or random individuals not necessarily supporting the terrorists but asking for calm (which Bolt interprets as “support.”)
Any comments which point out that Bolt should not be making this tragedy a “left v right” thing are met with abuse. How this man continues to be published is beyond me.
1 December, 2008 at 10:26 am
It’s all standard right-tard issue stuff.
Don’t think/analayse, react!
Turn your brain off, salute the flag, shoulder arms and march in lock step.
1 December, 2008 at 10:37 am
Michael,
Do you ever stop to think before posting?
1 December, 2008 at 10:38 am
“How this man continues to be published is beyond me.”
Because he’s a sensationalist appealing to the lowest common denominator, unfortunately the lowest common denominator encompasses a large proportion of the population.
Murdoch doesn’t care, he’ll pay a dog whistling bigot like Bolt, a fringe right wing lunatic, as long as he sells papers.
The best we can do is not visit Bolt’s blog. If we find that we can’t resist temptation it is vital that we don’t make any dissenting posts, this will only increase the Herald Sun’s revenue.
1 December, 2008 at 10:48 am
Someone asked Bolt to provide proof that the “left” support terrorism …and he has put up a list of links in response. I suspect they are links to radical conspiracy sites ? Or random individuals not necessarily supporting the terrorists but asking for calm (which Bolt interprets as “support.”)
I visited Bolt’s blog of shame to look for his ‘proofs’ that leftists are supporting this latest act of terror, since all of the lefty sites I’ve visited have expressed horror at this tragedy.
I checked the first 4 of Bolt’s links, and not a single one points to leftists supporting or apologising for the terrorists, and none of the links demonstrate any calls for negotiation.
Bolt lies so instinctively and habitually that he probably doesn’t even really he does it any more.
1 December, 2008 at 11:39 am
“Do you ever stop to think before posting?</i” – Nic
No, I take a swig of the Kool-Aid, then reflexively apologise for terrorists, demand to negotiate with them, do some ‘moral relativism’ and then pretend it never happened…..like any good terrorist loving lefty.
1 December, 2008 at 11:40 am
Why can’t html and I get along?
1 December, 2008 at 12:37 pm
Akerman was running a similar line (of course). His take: Leftists are that one’s that lead to governments pursuing a soft course of action in relation to Terrorists.
It’s a completely meaningless narrative. What action is it that Akerman and Bolt want to take in relation to Terrorists that is being hindered or prevented as a result of the “sympathetic” approach of Leftists?
The notion that Leftists “support” terrorists or are apologists for them is a complete nonsense.
As we have found out with Russia’s tactics in a couple of instances: Call your enemy a “Terrorist” and you have the immediate right to wipe them off the face of the earth.
1 December, 2008 at 12:39 pm
“Leftists are that one’s…”?
English is a 2nd language…yet to find the 1st.
Apologies: replace with “the ones”
1 December, 2008 at 12:42 pm
“The notion that Leftists “support” terrorists or are apologists for them is a complete nonsense.”
Yes but the Boltards see it like this:
You’re either with us or you are with the terrorists. There’s no grey area, one either agrees 100% with GWB or one is for the terrorists!
/Sarcasm.
1 December, 2008 at 1:37 pm
Bolt’s use of the term “Leftist” is similar to the use of “Civil Libertarians” by the radio Shock Jocks. It’s a convenient catch-all for those who dare disagree with them or want to put a contrary or a more nuanced argument. It also makes his Group Thinkers and sychophants feel more militantly tribal.
It also saves him the trouble of having to address particular articles or analyses individually.
I’ve noticed that the comment moderation is increasingly more lenient to those that personally denigrate anyone that dares to voice a contrary view to Bolt and his Mob.
I love Bolt’s use of the word “Troll” too. Like he’d actually know what it meant. A hint for you Bolta: It doesn’t mean someone who dares disagree with you. Besides, you already have a word for that: “Leftist”.
1 December, 2008 at 1:52 pm
I love Bolt’s use of the word “Troll” too. Like he’d actually know what it meant. A hint for you Bolta: It doesn’t mean someone who dares disagree with you. Besides, you already have a word for that: “Leftist
LMAO …………….. Oh DeaniaL that would have to be the funniest, most ironic thing you have said ALL year. You trow around the Troll word as much as most people and you always use it against those of us that disagree with you.
So, before you ask bolt to take not of your Hint, you need to realise that a troll doesn’t mean someone who dares disagree with you
Thankyou DeaniaL you are comedy gold
1 December, 2008 at 1:52 pm
Nic, you were making a bit of sense until you used the term “liberal media”. Then you started to sound like a deluded idiot.
1 December, 2008 at 1:55 pm
Oh look it’s Rad Pipper, the poster who said recently of the Palestinians:
“The Palestinians are not locked up in ghetto’s. They have every opportunity to turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other.”
To prove to the world that he doesn’t have a fucking clue, that all he is interested in is trolling.
Piss off you clueless troll!
1 December, 2008 at 2:03 pm
Piss off you clueless troll!
More comedy gold. The irony just keeps on keeping on.
1 December, 2008 at 2:04 pm
So RadMatt’s got himself out of the hyperbaric chamber after last week’s pummelling and now he’s asking for more. The boy is a hero.
1 December, 2008 at 2:06 pm
So RadMatt’s got himself out of the hyperbaric chamber after last week’s pummelling and now he’s asking for more. The boy is a hero
I think that you have spent way too much time playing with yourself that you no longer realise when you are playing with yourself.
1 December, 2008 at 2:10 pm
“More comedy gold. The irony just keeps on keeping on.”
But you wrote this:
“the Palestinians are not locked up in ghetto’s. They have every opportunity to turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other”
I think you need to go and look up the word irony you utterly clueless twat!
1 December, 2008 at 2:15 pm
I think you need to go and look up the word irony you utterly clueless twat!
There is no irony in my comment. Given a strong government every country has the ability to be prosperous. Especially when organisation like Hamas, who are only interested in total annihilation of their neighbour are expelled from the country.
1 December, 2008 at 2:16 pm
“Given a strong government every country has the ability to be prosperous.”
Come on Rob, credit where it’s due. You’ve got to admit that’s funny.
1 December, 2008 at 2:22 pm
“I think that you have spent way too much time playing with yourself that you no longer realise when you are playing with yourself.”
How did you know? Have you been stalking me RadMatt?
1 December, 2008 at 2:28 pm
Badbob – I know it is a bit of an Americanism, don’t mean to use the term “liberal media” in a negative sense. But, if you know it – the Guardian (one of my favourite newssites) would qualify as about the most consistently liberal medium in the English speaking world.
1 December, 2008 at 2:49 pm
“Given a strong government every country has the ability to be prosperous.”
They don’t have a country you ignorant twat!
“Come on Rob, credit where it’s due. You’ve got to admit that’s funny.”
Actually BadBob, with people as ignorant as Rad no wonder our politicians get away with murder. No wonder there’s support for idiots like GW and their idiotic wars of choice based on utter bullshit. No wonder pricks like Howard get away with blatant lies for the purposes of vilifying asylum seekers. there are enough twats to swallow their shit, Rad is a classic example.
It would be funny BadBob if it weren’t so sad!
1 December, 2008 at 2:56 pm
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2008/12/01/1227979890212.html
Explains much about why a smut-peddeler like Murdoch employs scumbags like Bolt/Blair.
I’m happy Bolt writes his lunatic rantings because he attracts the lunatic fringe, which keeps them near their keyboards and off the streets. The mad Bolt style surely frightens sensible people away from conservatism. Bolt seems immature and silly, some of his regulars are positively unhinged, outside of his own world the man is a laughing stock.
1 December, 2008 at 3:26 pm
back to the topic please ladies and gents …
And if Rad could stop diverting the topic of this post and comment on the post at hand it would save us all a lot of grief!
1 December, 2008 at 3:34 pm
Agree with all that Rob, of course. But I prefer to see it as both funny and sad. And sometimes RadMatt is just flat-out funny, like when you take the piss out of him for something and he doesn’t even get that it’s a piss-take! It’s pretty cheap sport I know, but it’s irresistible – and maybe, just maybe, he’ll piss off if we keep it up. He might even resume his former persona, Mighty Matt, and go and haunt another Lefty blog. I hope not though – he’s a great diversion when things get slow at work.
He was much harder to take during the Howard years, because all those things you say about politicians getting away with murder – quite literally in the case of BushBlairHoward – were happening then, but maybe a better time is coming when the memory of the country being run by the dumbasses, for the dumbasses will just fade away and the RadMatts of this world will start to look like the anachronistic relics that they are.
1 December, 2008 at 3:37 pm
“I know it is a bit of an Americanism, don’t mean to use the term “liberal media” in a negative sense.”
Nic, that’s fair enough I suppose but it’s a perilous business using Right-wing Americanisms in the blogosphere if you want your arguments to be taken seriously, especially when you are presenting a broadly conservative point of view.
1 December, 2008 at 4:38 pm
Nic,
I would not argue against the idea that the terrorists targeted sites that they knew would be populated with Westerners, which means that to some extent Westerners were targeted. As I said, I recognised it was entirely likely that some parts of Bolt’s claims would be correct – but that doesn’t make the rest of his assertions, or the general theme of his column (“An attacks on us all”), valid.
What I argued against is presuming, when the attacks were still underway, when none of the terrorists had been identified, and when more Indian nationals than foreigners had been killed, that we can know the aims of the attack (and “to split India from the West” is an incredibly oversimplified statement that offers no real explanation of the attackers’ goals), that external support or direction was provided by anyone, let alone specifically by al Qaeda, that the attack was part of a global-scale war against Western “freedoms”, or that the attack in India had been planned because it was an “easier target” than the US, UK, etc.
You seem to have taken one element of Bolt’s argument, pointed to its plausibility, and declared that this makes his entire argument valid. That is the same flawed reasoning Bolt himself engages in.
P.S. I have to offer my apologies that I probably won’t be able to comment any more for a while. I would like to debate these issues, but I am at the start of a hectic week and life is going to take precedence for a while.
1 December, 2008 at 4:56 pm
“Any comments which point out that Bolt should not be making this tragedy a “left v right” thing are met with abuse. How this man continues to be published is beyond me.”
i’m not surprise he’s had to get more vicious. the post numbers on his blog seem to be down and lately the only threads that get high post numbers are those that divide people on very sensitive topics, like the mumbai attacks. and andy is running with it for maximum impact and posts.
1 December, 2008 at 5:22 pm
actually it’s ironic that andy would accuse the left of being apologists for terrorists, espcially with him jumping the gun before the authorities have completed their investigations. i have a mate whose a detective and he always says the biggest hindrance to police investigations are the media when they want to broadcast more detail than the cops are willing to say publicly. in this light the rightard war mongers like andy who publicly screamed about the motivations for the terrorist attacks before the bodies were even cold are potentially muddying the waters, possibly deflecting attention from where it should be focus, and maybe even helping the terrorists. if he was smart he’d let the experts do their job instead of trying to play sherriff, especially when all he’s doing is trying to boost the reader comments on his blog by somehow making this about left vs right.
this is just another case of ‘no experience, no opinion’ and another example of shithouse reporting that passes for opinion in this country. piers ackerman and greg sheridan have also caught the same brainwarping virus.
1 December, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Tobias,
I know you won’t be able to respond to this lengthy comment – but I resent your second last paragraph. You’ve taken a series of points from Bolt’s arguments. I’m responding by showing one of those points appears to be valid. The rest also seem to be arguable propositions.
Bolt’s article is an opinion piece written during the time that the attacks were unfolding. There is nothing in his article that is clearly wrong and he clearly states that it is based on the information at hand. The conclusions that he draws, in an opinion piece, are standard opinions that have been articulated elsewhere (I linked to one example on your fourth point, but won’t link to any others in order to prevent the moderation system kicking in). I find it hard to argue that attack on a Jewish centre involving the apparent torture of Israeli citizens is not an attack on the West (your first point).
Targeting Westerners can hardly be said to be done on the basis of a love of Westerners (your second point – clearly they hate Westerners, and Indians and anyone not subscribing to their particular brand of religion).
Most of the rest of your points are variants on the how do we know they hate Westerners theme.
Your last point bears repeating:
“The only way these attacks will end is for all Muslims to love freedom and be horrified by the notion of jihad.”
Yes – that seems a perfectly acceptable conclusion to draw from this. Clearly this attack appears to bear all the hallmarks of violent jihad. There is an outside possibility that it will end up being conducted by someone wholly unrelated to the ideology espoused by Al Qaeda, their associates and other like minded individuals – but somehow I doubt that.
1 December, 2008 at 5:42 pm
Confessions – I doubt your analogy is valid. There is no way an Australian columnist can “muddy the waters” of the Indian investigation in a completely different country. Particular as he is not circulating information not otherwise available on the internet.
1 December, 2008 at 6:04 pm
“There is no way an Australian columnist can “muddy the waters” of the Indian investigation”
which is why i said rightard war mongers like bolt. and there are plenty of them and all saying pretty much the same shit. and before you dismiss the indian government being shunted in an unrelated direction, let me draw your attention to iraq in the wake of the sept 11 attacks.
besides, do you agree that just throwing unsubstantiated statements around like he does in the absence of investigative evidence is appropriate? or justified? because that is the issue under discussion here.
1 December, 2008 at 6:12 pm
“Clearly this attack appears to bear all the hallmarks of violent jihad. There is an outside possibility that it will end up being conducted by someone wholly unrelated to the ideology espoused by Al Qaeda, their associates and other like minded individuals” – Nic
…..or Kevin Bacon.
Lashkar-e Tayyiba is looking a more likely suspect all the time.
The self-absorbed ‘it was an attack on us/the west’ brigade might want to consider that this group has also launched attacks in Pakistan. Perhaps that’s an attack on ‘the west’ too?
1 December, 2008 at 6:17 pm
I don’t understand the Kevin Bacon reference?
Well, for one the Pakistani government is clearly Western leaning – I understood at the time that one of the aims was to either overthrow the government or as a form of blackmail to move it away from the West.
I don’t see what is self-absorbed about fancying the notion that maybe an attack targetting Westerners is meant to be an attack targetting Westerners.
I’d like to hear what commentators here consider could be an alternative explanation for the attacks?
1 December, 2008 at 6:31 pm
“I’d like to hear what commentators here consider could be an alternative explanation for the attacks?”
that’s kinda the point of this thread – when bolt was posting his silly rantings they were still finding bodies and accounting for tourists and other visitor. several days later the indians are now saying all the gunmen were pakistani which makes bolt’s rantings about an attack on the west seem curiously out of touch when you consider the history of war between these two nations. incidentally the indian home minister declares these attacks an attack on india which makes bolt look even more stupid. who the fuck does bolt think he is that he knows more than the indian government about an attack on INDIAN soil?
oh and in The Oz today it is reported that pakistan is withdrawing troops from afghanistan war on terror to station along indian boundary. this is scary shit and bolt and his idealogocially blind fuckwit mates like timmy chanting about attacks on the west are not making things better or informing their readership correctly.
1 December, 2008 at 6:34 pm
“There is an outside possibility that it will end up being conducted by someone wholly unrelated to the ideology espoused by Al Qaeda, their associates and other like minded individuals”………or Kevin Bacon
ie. you’re covering your bases pretty well there – it’s Al-Qaeda!!…….or someone vaguely like them.
1 December, 2008 at 6:40 pm
No, I’m saying that it appears likely that it is done by someone espousing the ideology common to Al Qaeda and their ilk – ie violent jihad. I doubt that this was an attack by the Pakistani government (as opposed to individual Pakistanis).
1 December, 2008 at 6:43 pm
“Well, for one the Pakistani government is clearly Western leaning – I understood at the time that one of the aims was to either overthrow the government or as a form of blackmail to move it away from the West.” – Nic
Well if ‘the west’ is broadened to include just about everyone, even the Pakistan Govt, then I agree, it was an ‘attack on the west’.
“I don’t see what is self-absorbed about fancying the notion that maybe an attack targetting Westerners is meant to be an attack targetting Westerners.”
Yeah, just that 90% of the victims weren’t. That’s what I call “self-absorbed”.
Thousands of Afghhans, Indians, Pakistani’s, Indonesians get killed in these kind of attacks, but a few westerners get killed and Bolty’s all shrill and stupid with ‘it’s an attack on us!‘ [cue: smelling salts]
I’d suggest we all pitch in for a one-way ticket for Bolt and send him to Mumbai so he can tell the families of the Indian victims how really it was ‘an attack on us’.
1 December, 2008 at 6:46 pm
agreed michael. timmy today also lists the other people it was an attack on….everyone it seems except india.
1 December, 2008 at 6:51 pm
Michael – if you have not, the article I posted above addresses some of these points. It was clearly an attack on India. No one is denying that. However, it also was clearly an attack on western interests in India and one of the most westernised parts of India. How else do you explain the attack on the Jewish centre?
The point made in the article is that, unlike the earlier bombings which were targeted at Indians alone – this is targeted at Westerns as well. Clearly that is a significant point that is worth adressing in an opinion piece?
1 December, 2008 at 6:57 pm
“Clearly that is a significant point that is worth adressing in an opinion piece?”
Nic, are you the full bottle or what? are you taking stock of what is being written, what has been written? you seem to want people to tell you who is responsible when the whole point of this thread is nailing the alarmists like andy and timmy for jumping the gun (like the expert national security experts they are – snicker) and posting all over their blogs that this is an attack on us.
by the way you say nobody is disputing the attack on india, well timmy can’t even bring himself to mention india in his “TOO DIFFICULT FOR ACADEMICS” post. i’m tempted to think it’s cause he doesn’t know where mumbai is and is hedging his bets in case he gets shown up as a fool.
1 December, 2008 at 7:52 pm
However, it also was clearly an attack on western interests in India and one of the most westernised parts of India.
These also happen to be the parts of Mumbai most likely to attract India’s own elites.
1 December, 2008 at 8:05 pm
Hooley dooley – here’s a whole blog article that discusses the attack in terms of India-Pakistan relations. Don’t these “Foreign Policy” wonks know it’s all about how people look upon us?
1 December, 2008 at 10:35 pm
That’s madness Tobias.
1 December, 2008 at 10:37 pm
“the rightard war mongers like andy who publicly screamed about the motivations for the terrorist attacks before the bodies were even cold are potentially muddying the waters, possibly deflecting attention from where it should be focus, and maybe even helping the terrorists.”
Confessions. Please.
1 December, 2008 at 11:26 pm
Dunno Tobias, looks like at least one (Muslim) academic might throw a spanner in your works:
“we are witnessing the development of a political narrative that, while certainly retaining its more traditional factors surrounding Kashmir, is broadening to encompass the West and Israel. This much is visible in the language of Lashkar-e-Taiba’s senior figures. Hafiz Muhammad Sayeed, for example, now speaks of “Christians, Jews and Hindus” as the ‘enemies of Islam’. For him, Lashkar-e-Taiba’s aim is to ‘unfurl the green flag of Islam in Washington, Tel Aviv and New Delhi’. Precisely what Israel has to do with Kashmir is not abundantly clear. It seems Lashkar-e-Taiba’s circle is widening.”
“And it is here, rather than in the particular methods of violence, that we may discern the impact of al-Qaeda, not as an organisation, but as a symbolic ideological force. Its most significant contribution has not been mass death, but a new way of formulating militant politics that transcends the local and parochial, and imbues it with a global resonance”
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/globalisation-of-terror-20081201-6oqm.html?page=-1
Mmmmm, this global reasoning doesn’t quite tie in your local scenario.
2 December, 2008 at 8:29 am
Today’s Age features an opinion piece by Waleed Aly. I won’t link to it, in case the moderation system doesn’t like it. Key quotes (read the article for more):
“The key development is the apparent targeting of foreigners, especially Westerners and Jews.”
And
“But an alternative interpretation is possible and even compelling: that we are witnessing the development of a political narrative that, while certainly retaining its more traditional factors surrounding Kashmir, is broadening to encompass the West and Israel. This much is visible in the language of Lashkar-e-Taiba’s senior figures. Hafiz Muhammad Sayeed, for example, now speaks of “Christians, Jews and Hindus” as the “enemies of Islam”. For him, Lashkar-e-Taiba’s aim is to “unfurl the green flag of Islam in Washington, Tel Aviv and New Delhi”. Precisely what Israel has to do with Kashmir is not abundantly clear. It seems Lashkar-e-Taiba’s circle is widening.”
Golly, doesn’t Waleed Aly realise it is not about us in the West?
2 December, 2008 at 8:51 am
and still you don’t get it nic. thsi is now the 5th time you’ve had this explained to you: once by TZ and michael and 3 times by me.
nobody is saying it’s NOT about the west. the key issue here is about bolt jumping the gun in pronouncing the reasons behind the mumbai attacks when there is no evidence to support his views. these attacks might very well be about the west. they could just as well be about something else, but only idiots get on their soapbox issuing reasons and theories when the authorities and expert investigations are yet to finish, or in bolt’s case even begin.
2 December, 2008 at 8:55 am
Damian Kingsbury is on the radio now stating that Westerners probably were not the prime target, after all the first attack was against locals at a train station. He reckons that the attack on Westerners was an ad hoc opportunity. Though he reckons the attack on the Jews was always intended.
He said a load of other stuff as well indicating that this was a revenge attack and Westerners were not the prime target, however I was busy and not really listening.
2 December, 2008 at 9:04 am
an interesting interview with a leading counter terrorism expert:
http://counterterrorismblog.org/2008/11/international_support_to_india.php
2 December, 2008 at 9:19 am
RobJ – that’s interesting. FWIW, my view is that the attack on the Jewish centre alone is enough to advance the argument that this was an attack on Western targets and therefore, as Waleed Aly and other suggested taking it a step above an attack on India alone and placing it firmly as part of a wider and more general anti-Western struggle.
Confessions. Bolt is a columnist. That is his job – to get on the soap box. Are you saying Waleed Aly is an idiot? After all, he got on his “soapbox issuing reasons and theories when the authorities and expert investigations are yet to finish”. Or what about the columnist I linked to yesterday. Or every other columnist in the world who has discussed this?
I get what you are saying, I just don’t agree with it.
2 December, 2008 at 9:27 am
I don’t really care, fact is is that it’s happened, fact is the bulk of the dead are Indians. Fact is confessions is spot on with her criticism of Bolt. Bolt is a racist, sensationalist prick. (I just made a post to that effect in the Left and Right agree thread)
Bolt wont touch Catholic paedophiles but never misses an opportunity to stick the boot into Aborigines or Muslims. Had an Islamic school misbehaved like Xavier recently Bolt would have been all over it! The guy is a grade A prick IMHO and contributes NOTHING positive.
2 December, 2008 at 9:34 am
and still you don’t get it nic. thsi is now the 5th time you’ve had this explained to you: once by TZ and michael and 3 times by me.
nobody is saying it’s NOT about the west. the key issue here is about bolt………..
Yeah Nic! You just don’t get it. It’s all about finding ways to slag off Bolt. It’s not important that other people are saying similar things. All that counts is that we get to bitch about Bolt.
2 December, 2008 at 9:51 am
Thanks Rad, so we are just slagging him off.
Interestingly, Bolt criticises Waleed Aly’s article and claims it misses the point. I think that strengthens my argument that criticising Bolt for saying something – when people who otherwise don’t agree with Bolt are also saying the same thing.
2 December, 2008 at 9:56 am
“Bolt is a columnist. That is his job – to get on the soap box.”
well that depends on whether you think telling lies, distortions and misrepresentations and whipping up hysteria when no evidence exists counts as the job of a columnist. obviously you and rad think it does which tells me why you don’t in fact get the point of this thread.
enough said.
2 December, 2008 at 10:00 am
Confessions. You’ve not addressed my point. Do you equally condemn Waleed Aly for speculating as to the intentions of the terrorists?
Clearly you, Tobias and others do. Otherwise you are hypocrites.
Please give me one example, just one, of any person suffering from hysteria after reading Bolt’s articles on the Mumbai terror attacks. While you are at it, give me one example of a lie in his article.
2 December, 2008 at 10:01 am
Thanks Rad, so we are just slagging him off
Yes, that why people like Rob insist on adding the following when slagging him of;
Bolt wont touch Catholic paedophiles but never misses an opportunity to stick the boot into Aborigines or Muslims. Had an Islamic school misbehaved like Xavier recently Bolt would have been all over it! The guy is a grade A prick IMHO and contributes NOTHING positive
But I do have to laugh. Now it is a crime for an opinion columnist in a democratic country like Australia to voice his opinion on who he believes is responsible.
the key issue here is about bolt jumping the gun in pronouncing the reasons behind the mumbai attacks when there is no evidence to support his views. these attacks might very well be about the west. they could just as well be about something else, but only idiots get on their soapbox issuing reasons and theories when the authorities and expert investigations are yet to finish, or in bolt’s case even begin.
The way confessions goes on about it, you would think that Bolt was the minister for foreign affairs. I didn’t think a newspaper columnist could jump the gun.
2 December, 2008 at 11:18 am
Confessions. You’ve not addressed my point. Do you equally condemn Waleed Aly for speculating as to the intentions of the terrorists?
Clearly you, Tobias and others do. Otherwise you are hypocrites
Their silence is almost as deafening. Nic you have destroyed their argument in one swoop while also exposing their complete and utter hypocrisy. The fact that they won’t condemn Waleed Aly as they have bolt, just proves that they are more interested in any opportunity to slag off and bitch about Bolt than they are in rational debate.
The reality is that the reason why they won’t condemn Waleed Aly is because he is not Bolt.
2 December, 2008 at 12:19 pm
nic and Rad, the fact is Bolt is racist…….it is coming out now that the bombings were proberly NOT an attack on westerners but will Bolt appoligise? NO WAY, it takes a man to admit when his wrong. Have you ever noticed ( when you get your blinkers off ) Bolt only picks on minority groups? Says a lot about who he is, i guess.
2 December, 2008 at 12:28 pm
it is coming out now that the bombings were proberly NOT an attack on westerners but will Bolt appoligise? NO WAY, it takes a man to admit when his wrong
So should Waleed Aly apologise as well Geoff?
BTW You admit that you are not certain if the west was a target or not, yet you expect Bolt to apologise, even though you don’t know for sure. Aren’t you making exactly the same kind of assumption that you criticise Bolt for making by demanding an apology of him?!
The hypocrisy shown here is breathtaking.
2 December, 2008 at 12:30 pm
OT: Sorry guys. Gazzam and others asked when I would put a post together about the Mitchell River Dam in Gippsland.
…The proposal to construct a dam on the Mitchell River in Gippsland is short sighted….
2 December, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Gavin,
What “minority group” are you talking about? Are you aware that the terror attacks (which were not just “bombings”) specifically targetted foreigners – including, but not limited to the attack on the Jewish centre.
2 December, 2008 at 2:05 pm
Sorry, that is not to Gavin at all but Geoff. No idea why I made that mistake.
2 December, 2008 at 3:39 pm
“FWIW, my view is that the attack on the Jewish centre alone is enough to advance the argument that this was an attack on Western targets and therefore” – Nic
FFS.
No one has suggested that this aspect was random. Of course they attacked western targets – that’s just a statement of the bleeding obvious. But that doesn’t mean it’s an “attack on the west”. I think that they were primarily a very handy means to an end.
Again, to remind you, 90% of the targets were not ‘the west’.
It’s like saying because they attacked the Taj Mahal and Oberei Hotels this was an ‘attack on hotels’.
2 December, 2008 at 3:46 pm
“Confessions. You’ve not addressed my point. Do you equally condemn Waleed Aly for speculating as to the intentions of the terrorists?
Clearly you, Tobias and others do. Otherwise you are hypocrites” – Nic
You wish.
Aly is a lecturer in Global Terrorism Studies at ANU.
This is his area of expertise.
This is not the idle speculation of a pompous windbag, ala Bolt. And naturally it’s couched in far less shrill terms, with clear reasoning, than Bolts hysterical drivel.
2 December, 2008 at 3:52 pm
Michael – Could have been an attack on bad room service? /sarcasm.
If it was an “attack on the west” why weren’t targets like embassies or consulates included? what about western banks or businesses?
They went for max body counts on ’soft’ targets. To scare people in the future (the whole meaning of terrorism) and to get the issue in western media. Not to destroy infrastructure as has previously occured.
2 December, 2008 at 6:00 pm
Bolt calls Deepak Chopra an apologist for saying: “And we cannot go after the wrong people, as we did after 9/11, because then the whole collateral damage that occurs actually aggravates the situation… ”
Chasing the actual perpetrators could actually make some sense. Deepak sounds more like a cop.
I like to see the guilty arrested and brought to justice. That includes all the perpetrators, supporters, associates.
2 December, 2008 at 6:39 pm
At all other times boltoid criticises the French and Germans for being lefty anti-American euro trash. For the purpose of this latest woeful ‘column’ they are as one with ‘us’. What a tool.
2 December, 2008 at 7:43 pm
“Confessions. You’ve not addressed my point. Do you equally condemn Waleed Aly for speculating as to the intentions of the terrorists?”
Nic, how do you define expert? or expertise?
“Please give me one example, just one, of any person suffering from hysteria after reading Bolt’s articles on the Mumbai terror attacks.”
have a read of some of the hysterical responses on his thread yesterday liv refer to. there are some very disturbed people there who seem to think the mumbai attacks are something to do with the left. i wonder why?
“While you are at it, give me one example of a lie in his article.”
his stupid comment suggesting the left will make apologia for mumbai attacks. when asked for evidence he comes up with blogs that do no such thing – see THRs comment above. just more lies from bolt.
2 December, 2008 at 10:00 pm
HILARIOUS NONSENSE #1 -”nic and Rad, the fact is Bolt is racist…….it is coming out now that the bombings were proberly NOT an attack on westerners but will Bolt appoligise? NO WAY, it takes a man to admit when his wrong. Have you ever noticed ( when you get your blinkers off ) Bolt only picks on minority groups? Says a lot about who he is, i guess.”
Well hell. He’s a global warming sceptic and a Stolen Generations denier. And a Liberal voter. And he wears daggy pink shirts. I’d say he’d be in the minority there himself. Proberly.
HILARIOUS NONSENSE #2 – “No one has suggested that this aspect was random. Of course they attacked western targets – that’s just a statement of the bleeding obvious. But that doesn’t mean it’s an “attack on the west”.”
Tee hee. Somebody quick. My sides are splitting. An attack on western targets is not an attack on the west. The more you type it the funnier it gets. An attack on western targets is not an attack on the west. An attack on western targets is not an attack on the west.An attack on western targets is not an attack on the west.An attack on western targets is not an attack on the west.
I’m just cutting and pasting now but it’s still amusing.
HILARIOUS NONSENSE #3 – “If it was an “attack on the west” why weren’t targets like embassies or consulates included? what about western banks or businesses?”
Yes. A few hotels isn’t enough. Wait for the consulates and embassies. In fact, let’s wait for the American consulate and embassies to be attacked before we jump to conclusions about 9/11.
Well done all three. Blinkered Boltish Bullshit.
2 December, 2008 at 11:10 pm
“Tee hee. Somebody quick. My sides are splitting. An attack on western targets is not an attack on the west. The more you type it the funnier it gets. An attack on western targets is not an attack on the west. An attack on western targets is not an attack on the west.An attack on western targets is not an attack on the west.An attack on western targets is not an attack on the west.” – D
Yes, it’s a jihad on hotels too!
3 December, 2008 at 7:37 am
Confessions – how is Waleed Aly (even though he is an expert) not jumping the gun? What possible original research could he have done on the matter? How could he know what the police investigation is or is not turning up about the terrorists who perpetrated this crime? You cannot claim that Bolt is jumping the gun and then say Waleed Aly is not. Go on, either condemn Waleed Aly for speculating as to the causes of this without the full evidence or admit that you are wrong.
As to Deeprak Chopra. Of course he is an idiot (he believes in aromatherapy, intelligent design and is an advocate of thinking happy thoughts to build happy molecules). Deeprak in his interviews on CNN over the weekend blamed the root causes of Mumbai on Islamic grievances against America and primarily blamed poverty. Anyone agreeing with Tobias article should blame him for speaking out of turn and without any evidence – not defending him (and he is not any form of expert). This just proves my point that people on this blog attack Bolt not because of what he says, but because it is him who is saying it.
In anycase, if Deepak was talking about Iraq was not invaded because the West thought that it had anything to do with 9/11 (or are you forgetting the Bush Lied, People Died narrative?). No one went after the wrong targets because of 9/11 – (unless you are a truther – and think that the Taleban in Afghanistan’s sheltering of Osama had no connection to 9/11).
3 December, 2008 at 8:46 am
“Of course they attacked western targets – that’s just a statement of the bleeding obvious. But that doesn’t mean it’s an ‘attack on the west’ “.
Hahahah, lmao, hahahaha.
Gold.
3 December, 2008 at 9:06 am
Of course they attacked western targets – that’s just a statement of the bleeding obvious. But that doesn’t mean it’s an ‘attack on the west’
LMAO. LOL. Oh Michael. You have really out done yourself with this piece of utter stupidity.
Do you even read what you post before you hit the submit button.
3 December, 2008 at 9:15 am
“utter stupidity.”
Hmm
““the Palestinians are not locked up in ghetto’s. They have every opportunity to turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other””
Why are you still here you ignorant idiot troll? The statement above proves your ignorance and stupidity.
3 December, 2008 at 9:22 am
Rad Pipper and Super Duper bring to this site the very best putdowns that Tim Blair has already told his audience of subservient fucksticks to find funny. Well done, guys.
3 December, 2008 at 9:23 am
Why are you still here you ignorant idiot troll? The statement above proves your ignorance and stupidity
No Rob, your reaction to my statement proves your ideological bias and major short sightedness.
3 December, 2008 at 9:29 am
To whoever posted @9:22 am. Rad Pipper’s posted on this thread well before Tim linked to it and is a regular on this blog. Just because Tim agrees with him, doesn’t mean that Rad’s here because of that. Or don’t you read the blog comments?
3 December, 2008 at 9:30 am
Which country were you referring to you ignoramus?
“They have every opportunity to turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other”
You are so stupid you think Palestinians have a country. What a retard!
“Palestinians are not locked up in ghetto’s”
You are completely unaware that Israel decides who comes in and out of Gaza and the West Bank!
You are an ignorant troll.
3 December, 2008 at 9:34 am
I’m aware that Rad scatters dim-witted misanthropy on these threads with regularity. But it’s uncanny that those two picked up on precisely the same passage that Blair did in his morning bowel motion, don’t you think? If I didn’t know better, I’d swear that those two had no imagination, no capacity for independent thought, and nothing better to do with their lives than troll – just like 99% of Blair’s other fanboys.
3 December, 2008 at 9:38 am
You are completely unaware that Israel decides who comes in and out of Gaza and the West Bank!
Rob Palestine is not land locked by Israel. They do have other borders that neighbour other countries.
My point was that Hamas’ deep rooted hatred and ambition to annihilate Israel prevents the people of Palestine from moving forward and building a nation that is prosperous.
Now Rob, stop changing the topic. My comment was in another thread.
3 December, 2008 at 9:41 am
“A plan by Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) that had been in the pipelines for several months – even though official policy was to ditch it – saw what was to be a low-profile attack in Kashmir turn into the massive attacks on Mumbai last week.
The original plan was highjacked by the Laskar-e-Taiba (LET), a Pakistani militant group that generally focussed on the Kashmir struggle, and al-Qaeda, resulting in the deaths of nearly 200 people in Mumbai as groups of militants sprayed bullets and hand grenades at hotels, restaurants and train stations, as well as a Jewish community center.
…
A US State Department official categorically mentioned that Pakistan’s “smoking gun” could turn the US’s relations with Pakistan sour. The one militant captured – several were killed – is reported to have been a Pakistani trained by the LET.
Asia Times Online investigations reveal that several things went wrong within the ISI, which resulted in the Mumbai attacks.
…
The only active forward sections were left in the southern port city of Karachi, and the former Muzzafarabad sections were sent there. The PNS Iqbal (a naval commando unit) was the main outlet for militants to be given training and through deserted points they were launched into the Arabian sea and on into the Indian region of Gujarat.
…
The most important asset of the ISI, the Laskhar-e-Taiba (LET), was split after 9/11. Several of its top-ranking commanders and office bearers joined hands with al-Qaeda militants. A millionaire Karachi-based businessman, Arif Qasmani, who was a major donor for ISI-sponsored LET operations in India, was arrested for playing a double game – he was accused of working with the ISI while also sending money to Pakistan’s South Waziristan tribal area for the purchase of arms and ammunition for al-Qaeda militants.
The network of the Harkat-ul-Jihad-al-Islami, which was a major supporter of the ISI in the whole region, especially in Bangladesh, was shattered and fell into the hands of al-Qaeda when Maulana Ilyas Kashmiri, chief of Harkat, a hero of the armed struggle in Kashmir who had spent two years in an Indian jail, was arrested by Pakistani security forces in January 2004. He was suspected of having links to suicide bombers who rammed their vehicles into then-president General Pervez Musharraf’s convoy on December 25, 2003.
He was released after 30 days and cleared of all suspicion, but he was profoundly affected by the experience and abandoned his struggle for Kashmir’s independence and moved to the North Waziristan tribal area with his family. His switch from the Kashmiri struggle to the Afghan resistance was an authentic religious instruction to those in the camps in Kashmir to move to support Afghanistan’s armed struggle against foreign forces. Hundreds of Pakistani jihadis established a small training camp in the area.
Almost simultaneously, Harkat’s Bangladesh network disconnected itself from the ISI and moved closer to al-Qaeda. That was the beginning of the problem which makes the Mumbai attack a very complex story.
…
Several low-profile attacks were carried out in various parts of India as a rehearsal and Indian security agencies still have no idea who was behind them. Nevertheless, al-Qaeda was not yet prepared for any bigger moves, like the Mumbai attacks.
Under directives from Pakistan’s army chief, General Ashfaq Kiani, who was then director general (DG) of the ISI, a low-profile plan was prepared to support Kashmiri militancy. That was normal, even in light of the peace process with India. Although Pakistan had closed down its major operations, it still provided some support to the militants so that the Kashmiri movement would not die down completely.
After Kiani was promoted to chief of army staff, Lieutenant General Nadeem Taj was placed as DG of the ISI. The external section under him routinely executed the plan of Kiani and trained a few dozen LET militants near Mangla Dam (near the capital Islamabad). They were sent by sea to Gujrat, from where they had to travel to Kashmir to carry out operations.
Meanwhile, a major reshuffle in the ISI two months ago officially shelved this low-key plan as the country’s whole focus had shifted towards Pakistan’s tribal areas. The director of the external wing was also changed, placing the “game” in the hands of a low-level ISI forward section head (a major) and the LET’s commander-in-chief, Zakiur Rahman.
Zakiur was in Karachi for two months to personally oversee the plan. However, the militant networks in India and Bangladesh comprising the Harkat, which were now in al-Qaeda’s hands, tailored some changes. Instead of Kashmir, they planned to attack Mumbai, using their existent local networks, with Westerners and the Jewish community center as targets.
Zakiur and the ISI’s forward section in Karachi, completely disconnected from the top brass, approved the plan under which more than 10 men took Mumbai hostage for nearly three days and successfully established a reign of terror.
…
Pipes continued, “They [militants] are the believers of conspiracy theories and therefore they would have seen the Jewish center [attacked in Mumbai] as some sort of influence in the region and that’s why they chose to target it, but on the other hand they got immense international attention which they could not have acquired if they would have just attacked local targets.”
- Asia Times http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/JL02Df05.html
3 December, 2008 at 9:46 am
If I didn’t know better, I’d swear that those two had no imagination, no capacity for independent thought, and nothing better to do with their lives than troll – just like 99% of Blair’s other fanboys
Oh you mean like all of those on this threat attacking bolt for voicing his opinion as an opinion newspaper columnist?! Do you also mean like those on this threat that refuse to apply their same warped standards to other people like Waleed Aly?!
3 December, 2008 at 9:49 am
@9:34 – Daics pointed out how amusing that post was last night. Everyone can see what a stupid comment it is. The comment is the culmination of a series of comments in which Rad participated. I don’t see how, other than in your own imagination, anyone has done anything wrong.
Of course, maybe you would be better off trying to show why that comment is not the height of stupidity rather than attacking Rad for no reason.
3 December, 2008 at 9:57 am
Timmeh is awesome
3 December, 2008 at 9:34 am
I am just wondering if this person is really Michael. I don’t think that anyone has posted under this name before and this person seems to be taking it all so personally.
(Timmeh is awesome) are you Michael?
3 December, 2008 at 10:02 am
“Now it is a crime for an opinion columnist in a democratic country like Australia to voice his opinion on who he believes is responsible.”
Now, you silly little ignoramus, who said that it was a crime for your hero Bolt to spout his bigotted stupid opinions? That’s right, it was you, another one of your lies.
3 December, 2008 at 10:02 am
“You cannot claim that Bolt is jumping the gun and then say Waleed Aly is not.”
Nic: look at when bolt’s article was written in comparison to the attacks. now look at when aly’s article was written. consider how much time had elapsed between the two and consider how much more information aly (all of us even) had when waleed aly wrote his article.
also consider how much more informed generally aly’s peice is. he is able to discuss the mumbai attacks in the context of the broader political landscape in the region, that there have been 600 people killed in mumbai attacks over the last 15 years. bolt just simplifies everything, offering opinions without qualification about what the attacks mean. and this as a talking point about who is responsible: “The names of these outfits may shift but it’s just a rebadging of the same kind of people inspired by the same ideology.” what does this tell anybody about the mumbai attacks?
“What possible original research could he have done on the matter? ”
well someone who has published in the area for a start. also someone who works in a research facility that focus on global terrorism. i know you despeerately want to see bolt in a more positive light than waleed aly but your seriously stretching to see any comparison in expertise between the 2. it is obvious from aly’s article that he has it in spades over andy. it’s a shame you can’t see this too.
3 December, 2008 at 10:03 am
“Nic: look at when bolt’s article was written in comparison to the attacks.”
Don’t waste your time confessions.
3 December, 2008 at 10:11 am
Now, you silly little ignoramus, who said that it was a crime for your hero Bolt to spout his bigotted stupid opinions? That’s right, it was you, another one of your lies
Now stop it Rob. You are just trying way too hard with the mock outrage and the “Lies” tag.
I was being sarcastic you fool.
But my point was that you are attacking bolt for simply voicing his opinion. Something which we can all do in a free, democratic country.
You do not win an argument by playing the victim.
3 December, 2008 at 10:12 am
Oh you mean like all of those on this threat attacking bolt for voicing his opinion as an opinion newspaper columnist?!
As far as I’m concerned, Tim’s opinion about Mumbai – formulated in the safety of Kippax Street, while snugly tucked up in his cocoon of ignorance – isn’t worth a pinch of crap.
Blair himself is not that important. He’s a talentless, sub-O’Rourke shit-stirrer who wouldn’t get a job writing anything outside the circulation-shedding sheltered workshop that is News International’s Australian branch office.
What stuns me is that you guys allow him to make a comfortable living by selling your own stupidity and prejudice back to you. Whatever floats your boat, I guess. Just don’t insult anyone’s intelligence by suggesting that you aren’t allowing him to do your thinking for you when you run his lines on these threads.
Ciao, blairbots.
3 December, 2008 at 10:12 am
agreed RobJ. this is now the 6th time Nic has been told what this thread is about.
ya live n learn!
3 December, 2008 at 10:18 am
It’s true:
“Why kill the Rabbi?”
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24742140-7583,00.html
3 December, 2008 at 10:18 am
This is a pretty shitty thread. People are arguing about side-issues without defining their terms – again. The result is that some people are backing themselves into corners and overstating their criticisms of Bolt’s fatuous bullshit, leaving themselves wide open to attack by people like Nic and Daics and (God forbid) RadMatt.
Of course this is not “an attack on the West”, whatever the hell that means. It is an attack on the infidel, as “the lesser jihad” has always been, since the first few centuries of Islam’s existence. Islam, like Christianity, has always been a proselytising religion and at various times in their histories, both religions have attempted to convert people by force. These are vicious, narrow-minded, unworldly people who are deeply offended by those who do not share their religious sensibilities, and feel themselves authorised by God to destroy the offenders. No-one is considered an innocent victim in these attacks, not even children or old people, because they are all complicit in the offending behaviour and all are vile and unclean in the sight of God.
The behaviour of these terrorists, as we call them today, is identical to that of the medieval crusaders who would storm a town and then proceed to slaughter every occupant of it. They had a dual purpose – to wipe out as many infidels as possible, and to intimidate the others into submitting to their authority, and perhaps even converting to the One True Faith. They wanted to send a message, just as these bastards want to do today, albeit on a rather bigger stage.
The to-ing and fro-ing on this thread about “the West” needs to be put in this context, then maybe we can start having a sensible discussion.
As long as RadMatt stays out of it.
3 December, 2008 at 10:20 am
Confessions – I don’t doubt that Waleed Aly’s article is good. That is why I suggested it and quoted approvingly from it (I note that there is now a link to it before my comment, but that may have been awaiting moderation when I posted). However, I quote from you above:
“actually it’s ironic that andy would accuse the left of being apologists for terrorists, espcially with him jumping the gun before the authorities have completed their investigations.”
Now then. Did Waleed’s piece come before the authorities have completed their investigations? Simple yes or no answer. If yes, either condemn him or admit that you are biased against Bolt.
To clarify, if anyone has any doubt – I am saying that no-one should be condemned for the mere fact of writing an article on this topic.
Waleed is only one example among, I have no doubt, 1000+ opinion pieces written on this attack. Either condemn them all for jumping the gun or don’t pick out Bolt.
In the end, that is all this blogpost is about. Criticising Bolt for writing an opinion piece before all the details are known. If you adopt that view, then you have to say no opinion piece on any breaking news story should ever be published.
3 December, 2008 at 10:21 am
@10:12 am. Don’t you mean Bolt, not Blair?
3 December, 2008 at 10:24 am
“Now stop it Rob. You are just trying way too hard with the mock outrage and the “Lies” tag.
I was being sarcastic you fool. ”
Now where have I heard that before? That’s right the last time Rad was sticking up for dishonesty. Rad you are a liar, a hypocrite and an idiot, you are a troll by default.
Where was the sarcasm tag, do you expect others to read your mind? You’re an idiot.
“But my point was that you are attacking bolt for simply voicing his opinion.”
You made a claim that others were suggesting that was a crime, you got caught out (again) so you use your stock standard lie that you were being sarcastic.
“You do not win an argument by playing the victim.”
Errrrr, you lose every argument, I never felt like a victim. That I wont bother debating you is just an indication of time constraints ie I don’t have time to waste on loser, lying trolls.
3 December, 2008 at 10:26 am
“Now then. Did Waleed’s piece come before the authorities have completed their investigations? ”
no, if the indian government statements are to be beleived.
“December 01, 2008 India says all Mumbai terrorists were Pakistani” (source: The Oz newspaper).
now nic, please stop trying to play silly gotcha games in a desperate attempt to justify the ignorant and bigoted rantings of bolt.
3 December, 2008 at 10:26 am
HI TIM,
Nice to see you still visit. How is the carpooling going since you lost your license?
I did not know that a comment posted HAD to relfect the entire site? Based on that rule you open yourself up to more pwning.
3 December, 2008 at 10:27 am
Confessions. You don’t get around someone disagreeing with you by saying that they are missing the point of the thread. I know very well the point of this thread. I understand your arguments. They are just wrong. I have explained why this blogpost and your comments are wrong – multiple times.
3 December, 2008 at 10:29 am
I don’t understand people getting angry with RadMatt. Just laugh at him. He is a dopey clown, a jumped-up schoolkid with no awareness of how out of his depth he is. That’s very funny, not something to get all serious about.
3 December, 2008 at 10:30 am
confessions@10:26, you know that the investigations are on-going and will continue for a long time. If in doubt, you can ask your detective friend how long an investigation into an incident of this magnitude will take.
Again. Either Waleed Aly was jumping the gun or not. Which is it?
3 December, 2008 at 10:32 am
Where was the sarcasm tag, do you expect others to read your mind? You’re an idiot.
Get over yourself rob. You are now being pathetic. Deal with debating the topic and stop with playing the victim, it get old after a while.
You made a claim that others were suggesting that was a crime, you got caught out (again) so you use your stock standard lie that you were being sarcastic.
No I didn’t. I don’t believe for a second that you believed that I was being literal with my comment. If you did, then you are a fool.
Errrrr, you lose every argument, I never felt like a victim
You are playing the victim Rob by pretending to take the 100% literal meaning of my comment and then claimed that someone lied to you.
Now if you have problems understanding the debate, then maybe you should stay in the playpen.
3 December, 2008 at 10:33 am
Dam Buster – Tim’s highlighted the comment that encapsulates this thread rather nicely.
FWIW, this blog has always had trouble with reflections. Any chance the photo will get updated to properly “reflect” grade 11 physics?
3 December, 2008 at 10:33 am
Nic, you could be forgiven for thinking this is all about people questioning Bolt’s right to express an opinion, but the fact is it’s not. It’s about the particular opinions he has expressed, and the background of similarly hysterical, ill-informed and subtly racist opinions he has expressed in the past. His comments can never be taken in isolation, nor can they be separated from the vileness of his fans.
3 December, 2008 at 10:34 am
“Nice to see you still visit. ”
he linked to this thread the other day probably hoping to incite another of his playground blog wars. it went unmentioned by anyone here and none of his sheep strayed from their paddock. you can always tell when timmy is suffering relevence deprivation syndrome cuase he starts trying to find fault with individual comments rather than the original post itself.
3 December, 2008 at 10:36 am
Thank you Bob, some sense shed on this thread at last…
There’s no doubt that Bolt jumped the gun with his article and probably shouldn’t have — although it is also true that he’s not the only writer around to have done so. As it happens he’s possibly going to be proven to be correct with most, if not all of his assumptions, although that still doesn’t excuse him leaping in before any evidence is presented….But then again, I suppose he is an ‘opinion’ columnist so I guess he’s paid to have an opinion.
It seems, from comments reportedly made by the captured terrorist that Israelis were a specific target along with Westerners, particularly British and American tourists, but of course this sort of attack is mainly an assault on the country in which it takes place, not only in terms of the numbers of locals killed and injured, which are almost always considerably higher than tourists, but also for the political, social and infrastructure damage that is caused.
3 December, 2008 at 10:42 am
“You are playing the victim Rob by pretending to take the 100%”
Yes which is why I’m openly taking the piss out of you. I’m deriding your utter ignorance of the Israeli/Palestinian situation. I’m highlighting your lies and inconsistencies, the best thing is, you do all the hard work with your idiotic posts littered with ignorance and lies.
If playing the victim means you’ve been utterly discredited, shown to be a filthy bigoted ignorant, liar then I’m happy to pretend to be the victim.
I realise this will go straight over your head because regardless of your ‘fantastic education’ you consistently prove to us all what a simpleton you really are.
3 December, 2008 at 10:45 am
“Again. Either Waleed Aly was jumping the gun or not. Which is it?”
This comes back to the ‘No experience, No opinion’ thread.
Waleed Aly is an expert in this area, Bolt is not.
Waleeds opinion is based on actual knowledge in his area of expertise, whereas Bolts opinion is based on the fact that he always believes the worst of Muslims, and likes to whip up racist sentiment against them.
By Bolts own logic, as applied to Maxine Mckew, he himself has no right to have an opinion on this topic, as he is neither a Muslim nor a terrorism expert.
3 December, 2008 at 10:50 am
If playing the victim means you’ve been utterly discredited, shown to be a filthy bigoted ignorant, liar then I’m happy to pretend to be the victim
When all else fails, resort to abuse. Isn’t that right Rob!
Next time Rob, a little less abuse might help you keep up with the debate.
3 December, 2008 at 10:54 am
DbD – the point I was making goes back to confessions definition of jumping the gun and his use of his detective friend as an example why people should not comment until the investigation is over. On the specifics of this case, Waleed Aly has no more experience than any other person. His experience is not relevant to whether he jumped the gun or not.
3 December, 2008 at 10:55 am
“Waleed Aly is an expert in this area, Bolt is not.”
Yeah, but Aly is a Muslim and a bit dark skinned and Bolt is a white bigot. Bolt must be right and Ali must be wrong, even if they say the same thing (To a Boltard of course).
3 December, 2008 at 10:57 am
“Next time Rob, a little less abuse might help you keep up with the debate.”
I don’t debate with you, you’re an idiot, I just take the piss out of you, I realise you can’t tell the difference being an ignorant twat but it’s amusing for me.
3 December, 2008 at 11:00 am
Gavin M,
You reckon that “It seems, from comments reportedly made by the captured terrorist that Israelis were a specific target along with Westerners”
No, the Israeli consulate was not attacked. Nor any other Israeli national site.
A Jewish centre was targeted and attacked.
No representaives of Israel were there. But plenty of Jews were.
And to be sure, one of them admitted they did pre-attack reconnaisance beforehand.
3 December, 2008 at 11:03 am
RobJ:
“Yeah, but Aly is a Muslim and a bit dark skinned and Bolt is a white bigot. Bolt must be right and Ali must be wrong, even if they say the same thing (To a Boltard of course).”
Who has said anything of the sort?
3 December, 2008 at 11:08 am
Super,
Other than the mistaken use Israeli for Jewish – what is wrong with the comment? The Jewish people attacked were all Westerners, from the US and Mexico, it appears. The Jewish centre was clearly a Western target.
3 December, 2008 at 11:08 am
I don’t debate with you, you’re an idiot, I just take the piss out of you, I realise you can’t tell the difference being an ignorant twat but it’s amusing for me.
Given the amount of venom in your abuse, it doesn’t look like you are having all that much fun. Unless of course you enjoy abusing people?!
Yeah, but Aly is a Muslim and a bit dark skinned and Bolt is a white bigot. Bolt must be right and Ali must be wrong, even if they say the same thing (To a Boltard of course).
OMG rob. What has the colour of someone’s skin got to do with anything? You are the only person talking about the race of the person writing the opinion piece. That suggests that you may be the racist bigot.
3 December, 2008 at 11:17 am
Super,
Please see this link:
http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/244025,mumbai-terrorists-targeted-israelis-to-avenge-atrocities.html
Perhaps it was released a little soon after the attack, but I assumed that the Israeli embassy would have been aware of the victims..
3 December, 2008 at 11:27 am
“Unless of course you enjoy abusing people?!”
I enjoy abusing willfully ignorant twats.
“OMG rob. What has the colour of someone’s skin got to do with anything? You are the only person talking about the race of the person writing the opinion piece. That suggests that you may be the racist bigot”
Uhhh sarcasm??! LOL
3 December, 2008 at 11:29 am
“Unless of course you enjoy abusing people?!”
I enjoy abusing willfully ignorant twats.
“OMG rob. What has the colour of someone’s skin got to do with anything? You are the only person talking about the race of the person writing the opinion piece. That suggests that you may be the racist bigot”
Uhhh sarcasm??! LOL
3 December, 2008 at 11:37 am
Er, RobJ – I didn’t see the sarcasm in that either. You seemed to suggest that people who agree with Bolt are racist.
3 December, 2008 at 11:38 am
“HI TIM,
Nice to see you still visit. How is the carpooling going since you lost your license?” – DBP
Timmy was here? Which is his thought provoking contribution?
3 December, 2008 at 11:38 am
Uhhh sarcasm??! LOL
OK, so if anyone else uses sarcasm they are liars and you play the victim for all it’s worth but if you use sarcasm it is OK.
Poor Rob, your credibility just keeps on rock bottoming. It’s almost too painful to watch.
3 December, 2008 at 11:59 am
“On the specifics of this case, Waleed Aly has no more experience than any other person” – Nic,
You’re kidding, right?
Aly is commenting within his area of expertise. An informed, rational and considered contribution which adds to our knowledge. He hasn’t written a judge-jury-executioner piece.
3 December, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Michael – I’m refering to the specifics of what occurred in the incident (this is what Confessions suggested that Bolt was jumping the gun on). Being the whos, whats and wheres of the matter. Maybe he has more knowledge on the whys than others – but only if he has the other facts correct.
Unless he has contacts in the Mumbai police force, he knows no more of this than Bolt.
Which, again, is why I am saying if you condemn Bolt for jumping the gun you have to condemn Aly for doing the same (and any other person who has commented on this matter).
3 December, 2008 at 12:09 pm
RadMatt, please PLEASE for the love of God, don’t start attacking anyone else’s credibility… I couldn’t bear to watch the carnage you’ll provoke…. Remember, I really do love you.
3 December, 2008 at 12:10 pm
Give it up Nic, it’s not important.
3 December, 2008 at 12:13 pm
Nic,
I agree with you on the matter. Was just showing a particular point.
3 December, 2008 at 12:15 pm
“You seemed to suggest that people who agree with Bolt are racist.”
Most are Nic.
Do you ever read any of the comments on his blog?
There are some very unpleasant characters posting there. The failure of his moderators to SNIP, or even caution these people shows a certain tolerance for racism, if not outrght approval.
3 December, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Dbd – I don’t think that is right at all. Many people agree with Bolt on a lot of topics but aren’t racist. Take Jeremy, he appears to agree with Bolt on most thing(*) and is not racist.
Super – apologies.
Badbob – I agree the point is laboured but I was responding to Michael’s comments. I will not beat it into the ground any further.
(*) humour, if anyone doesn’t read his blog.
3 December, 2008 at 12:35 pm
Super,
Just to let you know, I have responded to you somewhere above re my reference to Israelis with a link, but its still with the moderators..
3 December, 2008 at 12:54 pm
GavinM, I’m seeing your comment now (@11:17).
3 December, 2008 at 12:58 pm
Not sure if this has been spoken about here yet, but a really interesting op-ed in last Friday’s Washington Post that sheds some light on the simple things 4 simple minds bath of B1 ‘n’ B2
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/28/AR2008112802242.html
See particularly the para starting ‘I learned in Iraq…’
3 December, 2008 at 1:06 pm
Michael – TIM did a post about your comment on here from yesterday afternoon at about 3:39pm.
Tim is a small man. He needs to feel big by attacking one thing mentioned in a comment thread*. He of course does not mention the context or even argue against the premise of the original post.
* note that TIM would not know what a long thread looks like anymore since not many people appear to comment on his site.
3 December, 2008 at 1:08 pm
Tim would not allow long posts as it would alienate his “readers”.
3 December, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Dam, I’m not sure if a long thread is a sign of quality of a blog. For instance, if Rad and myself stopped posting here – we’d have almost no comments.
3 December, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Nic – true. quantity does not necessarily equal quality. Sadly Tim’s site has been lacking in both.
3 December, 2008 at 4:00 pm
If RadMatt stopped posting this blog would be a sadder place. Smarter, but sadder.
3 December, 2008 at 4:18 pm
Uglier and safer maybe? But I guess that’s a question of personal taste.
3 December, 2008 at 7:48 pm
But for an Australian writer to boil all of this down to a global conflict between two irreoncilable groups – “the West” and Islam – is foolish.
Um.. Why?
Do you know what is really foolish?
Resisting the concept that you – we – have an enemy that sees everything different to itself as a threat to be negated or an opponent to be attacked in its clearly-stated goal of world domination, and that although Hinduism is a large obstacle to this goal in India, western culture is a larger and more significant obstacle and thus is likely to receive greater efforts focussed on overthrowing it than is Hinduism – as has been demonstrated repeatedly over the last several decades.
Oh and unlike Andrew Bolt whose intellect you so denigrate, I am not an Australian in Melbourne, I am an Australian in a Muslim country and have spent the last decade studying Islam and Asian cultures.
Oh, and how strange, I agree with Andrew Bolt and think that you are moronic. How could that be – when you claim to be so much more enlightened than he is?
What are your qualifications relevant to issues like this one?
You’re as Australian as Andrew Bolt, you’re as much located in Australia as he is, and you’re NOT a journalist?
Well done. Fantastic way to play to your strengths.
3 December, 2008 at 7:56 pm
Dam Buster of Preston
3 December, 2008 at 1:06 pm
Michael – TIM did a post about your comment on here from yesterday afternoon at about 3:39pm.
Tim is a small man. He needs to feel big by attacking one thing mentioned in a comment thread*. He of course does not mention the context or even argue against the premise of the original post.
* note that TIM would not know what a long thread looks like anymore since not many people appear to comment on his site.
Nic
3 December, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Dam, I’m not sure if a long thread is a sign of quality of a blog. For instance, if Rad and myself stopped posting here – we’d have almost no comments.
Hahahahahahaha.. You people are fucking morons.
3 December, 2008 at 8:10 pm
“HI TIM,
Nice to see you still visit. How is the carpooling going since you lost your license?”
lol!! timmy is preparing for the day he can start driving again and is coveting not just an ordinary prius but a streeeeetch prius.
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/priiiiiius/
3 December, 2008 at 8:15 pm
Michael
29 November, 2008 at 8:51 am
Sorry Bolty, but as incredibly important as we westerners are, maybe western targets in India were just a means to an end for the attackers.
So.. You admit that Andrew Bolt is more than likely correct on the point on which the original post derided him – that attacks on Western targets in India (as well as Indian targets) are a sign of inability to attack targets IN the West?
Or do you not even need to have a coherent point except that you are smarter than Andrew Bolt and he is wrong whether or not you can coherently present a case as to why either of those contentions are accurate?
Liv
1 December, 2008 at 10:20 am
His post today is appalling – smearing the “left” and planting a seed in the minds of his readers by insinuating that the “left” are going to apologise for/support the Mumbai terrorists :
Aaaaaand that would be because “the left” has spent the last seven years declaring that every single terrorist attack that occurs is a result of western countries’ foreign policy. You’ve yet to convincingly demonstrate how blaming the victims does not constitute tacit support for the perpetrators.
“Before some in the Left prepare their standard apologias, arguments of moral relativism or appeals for negotations, consider this about the Mumbai terrorists”…..
Then anyone who points out “that’s a bit rough” gets slammed by his disciples …”But you love David Hicks !!! Therefore you love the Mumbai terrorists !! You drink Kool Aid!!”
Um you people demonstrated quite clearly your appreciation for Hicks’ dedication to his cause. Are you taking offence simply at the fact that we noticed this? Or that we fail to attribute to your stances on all these issues the correct level of nuance and sophistication that you assume accompanies standard liberal cookie-cutter non-arguments? In fact do you have a point at all that you wish to make here?
Someone asked Bolt to provide proof that the “left” support terrorism …and he has put up a list of links in response.
Hm, okay; so he was challenged on a contention that he made – then, he provided evidence to support the contention that was challenged. In the grown-up world that would be a fairly standard method of holding a “debate” or “conversation.”
I suspect they are links to radical conspiracy sites ?
You suspect? In other words you didn’t read them, nor did you vet the information contained within them, yet you are still criticizing Bolt for his original assertion, in support of which he posted said links in the first place? Okay then.
Or random individuals not necessarily supporting the terrorists but asking for calm (which Bolt interprets as “support.”)
Yeah. Or, alternatively, it could actually be links where leftists have attributed terrorist attacks to faults on the part of those who were attacked, as the left do every single time a terrorist attack occurs. Who knows? Certainly not you – because you haven’t bothered to read the information before forming an argument.
Any comments which point out that Bolt should not be making this tragedy a “left v right” thing are met with abuse.
You mean any comments ACCUSING Bolt of making this tragedy a “left vs. right thing” are met with rebuke. That would probably be due to the fact that the left were the first to go on the offence against the right at the beginning of the current cycle of terrorism in opposition to the methods the right-leaning leadership of the day employed to counter that terrorism, and you continue to do so now. In simple terms, you started it, you deal with it.
How this man continues to be published is beyond me.
Since there is a 99.9% chance that you yourself are not published, I doubt that statement would surprise anyone.
3 December, 2008 at 8:19 pm
OMG! a fuckwit douchebag has flown in. how’s the paddock where you are sheep?
3 December, 2008 at 8:21 pm
“I am not an Australian in Melbourne, I am an Australian in a Muslim country”
and therefore i know everything there is to know about….everything!
do you have anything to contribute at all, or are you just trolling before mummy calls you for dinner?
3 December, 2008 at 8:31 pm
“Um you people demonstrated quite clearly your appreciation for Hicks’ dedication to his cause. ”
really? um how so?
“Aaaaaand that would be because “the left” has spent the last seven years declaring that every single terrorist attack that occurs is a result of western countries’ foreign policy.”
really? proof please.
“and you’re NOT a journalist?”
neither is bolt, but don’t let facts get in the way of a pre-dinner rant.
“That would probably be due to the fact that the left were the first to go on the offence against the right at the beginning of the current cycle of terrorism”
okaaaay. as i recall it terrorist attacks are generally met with outrage across the board. but please, do that bolt thing where everything, i mean EVERYTHING is about left and right. it’s not as if we haven’t seen it before (/sarcasm).
“Since there is a 99.9% chance that you yourself are not published, I doubt that statement would surprise anyone.”
and you know this…..how? actually more to the point, this is relevant….how?
oh! isn’t that mummy calling you for dinner. run along kiddo and thanks for dropping by. your contribution has been….interesting. lol!!!
3 December, 2008 at 8:43 pm
My first and last visit here.
Bitching about other columnists helps who/what/where?
Instructive? – F
Thought provoking? – F
Interesting? – F
Mature? – F
Is gossip, backbiting and bitching all any of you are good for?
3 December, 2008 at 8:56 pm
“So.. You admit that Andrew Bolt is more than likely correct on the point on which the original post derided him – that attacks on Western targets in India (as well as Indian targets) are a sign of inability to attack targets IN the West?” – DJ Douche
No DJ.
If that was what I’d meant, I’d have said just that.
I was trying to make what I thought was a pretty straigforward point – that the fact of westrners being targetted doesn’t mean that the overall aim was “an attack on the west” as Bolt stupidly contended. It’s the difference between strategy and aim. Is that so hard to understand?
But even those who have attempted to deride this simple observation have tacitly aknowledged it in their disagreement. They don’t take the utterly simplistic position that the attacks were ‘an attack on Westerners in Mumbai’, but extrapolate from the specifics – that it was an ‘attack on the west’.
3 December, 2008 at 9:11 pm
Nanna, did you perform the same assessment (sic) on Andrew’s blog too?
3 December, 2008 at 9:22 pm
“Is gossip, backbiting and bitching all any of you are good for?”
no. we’re also good for humour. i give you exhibits radp and douchebag.
4 December, 2008 at 6:43 am
Nana J……….Lol, another reject from Bolts’ blog.
Here’s my assessment of Andys’ blog ( which seems to be getting less responces these days )
Instuctive…….failed
Thought provoking……..failed
Interesting………..failed
Mature…………failed
4 December, 2008 at 6:48 am
Talking about Andy, it’s nearly time for him to go on leave.
Now whats a bet he will plant something in the flocks’ mind that he might not be back next year and there will be the sheep flocking to his blog crying and begging for him to stay on.
Just see how far off i am…….he just cries out to feel wanted.
4 December, 2008 at 6:55 am
“Bitching about other columnists helps who/what/where?”
Your whinging about our bitching helps who/what/where?
The Blog is called – “The Blair/Bolt Watch Project” Did you expect to find praise for these bigots? Why did you bother visiting? Just to whinge?
4 December, 2008 at 6:57 am
“Bitching about other columnists helps who/what/where?”
Your whinging about our bitching helps who/what/where?
The Blog is called – “The Blair/Bolt Watch Project” Did you expect to find praise for these bigots? Why did you bother visiting? Just to whinge?
4 December, 2008 at 7:01 am
“Here’s my assessment of Andys’ blog ( which seems to be getting less responces these days )
Instuctive…….failed
Thought provoking……..failed
Interesting………..failed
Mature…………failed”
Dog whistling – PASS
Bigotry – PASS
Inability to do simple arithmetic – PASS
Inability to use a spell checker even though he’s paid to write – PASS
Ridiculously biased moderation – A+++++
4 December, 2008 at 7:10 am
Confessions showns her true lack of interlect when it comes to rational debate.
Here are a few of confession’a attempts at inteligent debate;
OMG! a fuckwit douchebag has flown in. how’s the paddock where you are sheep?
– Confessions
And then there is this attempt at glory when confronted with rational debate from DJ;
do you have anything to contribute at all, or are you just trolling before mummy calls you for dinner?
– Confessions
And;
neither is bolt, but don’t let facts get in the way of a pre-dinner rant.
– Confessions
LMAO – given the comments abouve, it is you confessions that is caught in a rather childish a pre-dinner rant
that the fact of westrners being targetted doesn’t mean that the overall aim was “an attack on the west”
– Michael
OMG – LMAO you never learn Michael.
4 December, 2008 at 7:36 am
Here’s my assessment of Andys’ blog ( which seems to be getting less responces these days )
LOL You wish. Let me guess Rob! You still can’t stop yourself from visiting his blog site?!
Instuctive…….failed
Thought provoking……..failed
Interesting………..failed
Mature…………failed”
Dog whistling – PASS
Bigotry – PASS
Inability to do simple arithmetic – PASS
Inability to use a spell checker even though he’s paid to write – PASS
Ridiculously biased moderation – A+++++
Given your opinion of Bolt’s blog you still can’t stop yourself from reading his blog site. What does that say about you?
Truly pathetic!
4 December, 2008 at 7:55 am
What’s that foul smell?
4 December, 2008 at 8:18 am
What’s that foul smell?
That would be your upper lip Rob.
4 December, 2008 at 8:24 am
“that the fact of westrners being targetted doesn’t mean that the overall aim was “an attack on the west”
- Michael
OMG – LMAO you never learn Michael.” – ‘lil Pip
It’s my fault for putting a full stop after that sentance. Some took the punctuation literally. It went on to say,
“…….It’s the difference between strategy and aim. Is that so hard to understand?”
Apparantly so.
4 December, 2008 at 8:32 am
RadP “Given your opinion of Bolt’s blog you still can’t stop yourself from reading his blog site. What does that say about you?”
It’s like driving past a car crash Rad. You have to slow down just to have a look.
4 December, 2008 at 8:35 am
“Confessions showns her true lack of interlect…”
You are a genuine talent RadMatt, you know that?
4 December, 2008 at 8:37 am
“It’s like driving past a car crash Rad. You have to slow down just to have a look.”
Absolutely DBoP, morbid fascination, a curiosity of what retarded wingnuts think.
But I don’t really have to go to Bolt’s, I can just read drivel from retarded wingnuts here, for example one utterly ignorant twat wrote the following:
““the Palestinians are not locked up in ghetto’s. They have every opportunity to turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other””
How anybody could be so ignorant and still post without feeling utterly humiliated is beyond me, yet the troll continues to post. Fortunately DBoP I needn’t engage such trolls.
4 December, 2008 at 8:38 am
Ive noticed a couple of interesting things about these rightards.
First, an inability to understand cause and effect.
Terrorism and Islamic extremism doesn’t exist within a vacume, it is in part (but not entirely) a result of the wests policies and interferance.
Second, an inability to understand that an explanation is not an excuse. They seem to think that any comments from the left about the causes of terrorism are attempts to excuse terrorism, which they are obviously not.
Thirdly, their truly monumental self importance. They really dont seem to get the idea that an attack in which westerners are killed is not neccisarily an attack on the west. Are the lives of westerners worth so much more in their estimation that 10X as many Indians can be killed, but they still see it as an attack on the west?
Fuckwits.
4 December, 2008 at 8:38 am
You are a genuine talent RadMatt, you know that?
You just love those typos don’t you Badbod. As I said once before, you don’t get out much do you.
4 December, 2008 at 8:40 am
RobJ – I tend to visit Bolt’s site to see what he has posted on and then read anything I find relevant. Mainly posts relating to water / weather because that is what interests me the most.
4 December, 2008 at 8:40 am
They’re always typos, and you clangers are always sarcasm. Yes they are.
4 December, 2008 at 8:42 am
And yes RadMatt, you’re right, I don’t get out much. I told you about my accident and I think it’s tasteless and unnecessary of you to keep mentioning it.
4 December, 2008 at 8:47 am
Yes DBoP, I checked your Blog on the Mitchell dam, nice one, you’ve put in a fair bit of effort, We were discussing Bolt in work the other day, it seems he’s got some of my colleagues convinced on the Mitchell Dam, Vic Labor don’t help their own cause mind you (focus on Desal and Pipelines, not conservation) I’ll be referring my colleagues to your blog, I could never articulate the argument as well as you’ve done.
Cheers – I appreciate the effort you’ve put in.
4 December, 2008 at 8:48 am
And yes RadMatt, you’re right, I don’t get out much. I told you about my accident and I think it’s tasteless and unnecessary of you to keep mentioning it
I don’t. You are the one that keeps bring it up. I am simply responding to your comments which are laced with childish venom and hate.
4 December, 2008 at 8:48 am
Some anti-bolt-tode,
http://www.merip.org/newspaper_opeds/oped080408.html
4 December, 2008 at 8:49 am
“Childish venom and hate”? I told you I loved you RadMatt, I told you repeatedly, yet still you spurn me. Have you no heart?
4 December, 2008 at 8:50 am
No worries and thanks Rob – I had a similar thing within my company. I will be looking more at the economics side of it in the near future. The Mitchell Dam is not in fact the cheapest option listed in the report in terms of $/kL supplied.
4 December, 2008 at 12:46 pm
That’s a very thoughtful piece Michael, the absolute antithesis of the sort of tripe Bolt and his ilk serve up on this issue. It’s considered, knowledgeable, and constructive. Unfortunately for Bolt-minded folk like RadMatt, there’s no rage or vengefulness, so they probably think it’s bleeding-heart rubbish. Oh well. Have a read RadMatt, let us know what you think. Prove me wrong. Nic, I’d be interested to know what you think about it too.
4 December, 2008 at 1:20 pm
Oh well. Have a read RadMatt, let us know what you think. Prove me wrong.
The article may address ways of possibly preventing recruit of people by Militant Islamic groups in third world countries. What it doesn’t look at is an even greater problem, which is the recruitment of militant Islamic groups within wealthy western countries. The London bombers in 2005 or the Madrid Bombers would not have been prevented by the suggestions within this article. It also doesn’t address how the west deals with those that have already been recruited and brainwashed into committing terror attacks.
4 December, 2008 at 1:31 pm
I think all of us at Bolt Watch should travel to a terrorist camp in Pakistan and ask them why they are doing what they doing and what we can do to help them learn the error of their ways. Seriously, I think we should all do it this Christmas.
4 December, 2008 at 1:32 pm
So what do you think needs to be done about “the recruitment of militant Islamic groups within wealthy western countries” and “those that have already been recruited and brainwashed into committing terror attacks”, RadMatt?
4 December, 2008 at 1:33 pm
Thanks Freddo, but I already have something else booked. I’ll be thinking of you though.
4 December, 2008 at 1:35 pm
BadBob:
So what are you going to be doing to make the world a better place?
4 December, 2008 at 1:37 pm
Or in other words – hey that’s very sensible and the anithesis of Bolt-World, but I can’t exactly say that.
Though it is very interesting that ‘lil Pip tips his hand with “an even greater problem“.
Any objective assessment shows the the vast majority of the victims of this kind of terrorism are the peoples of the third world in general and Muslims in particular.
I guess that’s why they at look at Mumbai with its vast majority of Indian victims and say ‘it’s an attack on the west’. Apparently these ‘non-westerners’ don’t count for much.
4 December, 2008 at 1:59 pm
So what do you think needs to be done about “the recruitment of militant Islamic groups within wealthy western countries” and “those that have already been recruited and brainwashed into committing terror attacks”, RadMatt?
It’s an extremely complex problem that requires very complex solutions. The problem is that we are dealing with a group of militants that believe that it is their god given right to kill anyone that does not submit to their ideology. It is also a group that are offended by every ideal we believe in in western society.
Personally, I think it is a problem that we will never be able to remove from society. Militant islam is similar to any other cult that recruits within our society.
4 December, 2008 at 2:09 pm
I think all of us at Bolt Watch should travel to a terrorist camp in Pakistan and ask them why they are doing what they doing and what we can do to help them learn the error of their ways. Seriously, I think we should all do it this Christmas.
Islamic extremists have already made it very clear what it takes to make them happy. All infidels must die and everyone else must covert to Islam and submit to Shari law.
4 December, 2008 at 2:16 pm
“pparently these ‘non-westerners’ don’t count for much.”
Doesn’t sell Western news media more like.
How many thousands have died from terrorist attacks in India alone in the past few years? Kill a few Westerners and it’s all over the news for weeks, as it should be, but we (the collective rich Western World) don’t really notice when non-whites are killed en masse.
Maybe we just empathise more easily with people who look and speak like us?
As I understand it the only country in the world these days that suffers more from terrorism is Iraq. We get plenty of coverage in Iraq, which is good, after all it was the coalition of the killing that destroyed the law and order infrastructure in Iraq, making it an ideal hotbed of terrorism.
4 December, 2008 at 2:20 pm
OK RadMatt, for once it’s pretty hard to disagree with what you have written, but there’s nothing in it to suggest a program of action to address, contain or eradicate this kind of extremism. The article Michael linked to had some constructive suggestions for the Islamic nations themselves, but you demurred on the issue of “home-grown” extremists in Western countries. So what would you do?
4 December, 2008 at 2:25 pm
I’m not going to tell you what I do to make the world a better place Freddo. It’s a private matter for me. But take my word for it, I do my bit.
4 December, 2008 at 2:27 pm
Maybe we just empathise more easily with people who look and speak like us?
Don’t be ridiculous. We receive media that is more relevant to us. The reason why an attack in New York, London, Madrid, Bali and Mumbai rates higher in Australian Media is because there is a higher chance that Australians are involved because these are destination where Australian travel too. We are also more interested in news that impacts us more directly. For example – There is a higher chance that we may have a family member, friend or work mate impacted by a terror attack in Mumbai or London than one in Somalia.
There is only a limited amount of time available on the news so it stands to reason that events that impact Australia or Australians will get priority over events that do not.
4 December, 2008 at 2:31 pm
OK RadMatt, for once it’s pretty hard to disagree with what you have written, but there’s nothing in it to suggest a program of action to address, contain or eradicate this kind of extremism
That’s because I don’t believe that we can eradicate extremism. All we can do is manage it, prevent casualties and try and keep one step ahead of those that want to destroy us. Extremism is a fundamental part of the human experience.
How do you deal with ideology that has a sociopathic desire the kill and destroy? Reason will never be a solution for this.
4 December, 2008 at 2:55 pm
“How many thousands have died from terrorist attacks in India alone in the past few years? Kill a few Westerners and it’s all over the news for weeks, as it should be,”
4 December, 2008 at 3:06 pm
>How do you deal with ideology that has a sociopathic desire the kill and destroy?
Perhaps raising world awareness of the contents of the Koran would help?
4 December, 2008 at 3:21 pm
“…..but you demurred on the issue of “home-grown” extremists in Western countries. So what would you do?”
Bob,
Perhaps keeping a closer watch on what is being preached in the mosques by the Imams in Western countries and taking tougher action on violence inciting speeches by them could help…although I know this could raise the possibility of making all Muslims feel as though they are being blamed for the actions of a very small few…
4 December, 2008 at 3:26 pm
“Perhaps raising world awareness of the contents of the Koran would help? – Freddo
Yes, the ‘Protocols of the Elders of Mecca’ must be exposed.
The Muslim cabal that wants to take over the world must be stopped!
4 December, 2008 at 3:32 pm
I think Freddo might be a bit of a provocateur, but that’s just me.
4 December, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Jesus, RadMatt, just when I thought you might be getting a clue. I’ve asked you why there’s nothing in your post “to suggest a program of action to address, contain or eradicate this kind of extremism” and you’ve replied with “because I don’t believe that we can eradicate extremism”. Did you read the other two words – “address” and “contain”? Did you read the “or” before “eradicate”? It’s like teaching a Grade 6 kid.
You then go on to make the assertion that “reason will never be a solution for this”. So what are you proposing as an answer? Unreason? Irrationality? Violence? Persecution? What?
4 December, 2008 at 3:52 pm
BadBob – Some news programs can’t fit in news of major terrorist attacks because they need an “exclusive” with some lingerie model to call it ‘news’.
Hey maybe it was “the left” who did the Mumbai attacks?
thepost.com.pk/OpinionNews.aspx?dtlid=195103&catid=11
4 December, 2008 at 4:27 pm
Bob,
Thanks for suggesting I read that article that Michael posted. It was certainly interesting, even if I don’t agree with all of it.
I think it is more complicated than the article suggest and Rad is right (as you say) that it does not address how to contain home grown terrorism – where people raised in a modern welfare State with good jobs or otherwise with access to government housing/welfare turn around and commit atrocities like the London Bombings.
Something that disturbs me, is one of the reasons that some of the terrorists or their sympathisers give for hating us is our modern liberal society. They don’t hate us because some parts of the West allows gay marriage. They hate us because we allow gays to exist. We are never going to change enough to remove their hatred of us (without losing everything we stand for).
I’d also suggest that the article does not address the problems like Osama – where the child of a very wealthy family gets radicalised and becomes a terrorist. Poverty can hardly be blamed for that.
I’d also criticise the approach in the article of picking out existing elites to support. Part of the problem with a failed or failing state is that it is the existing elites that are the problem. Picking friends and supporting them against internal rivals in the middle east has not worked before, and have no reason to think it might change (e.g. Saddam et al). Part of the attraction of the extreme forms of religion is that it allows for an outlet of oppositon against the local elites where freedoms don’t exist.
However it is very easy to criticise and I don’t have any particular solution for any of this other than to keep down the path we are currently on. I’m not sure how well that is working out – but time will tell. Personally, I’m all for extending democracy into the middle east. Iraq, for all its problems, is a better place to live now than it was under Saddam.
4 December, 2008 at 4:36 pm
I remember the earlier attacks in India getting a lot of media coverage at the time. But then I (as probably a lot of us on this site) tend to consume a large number of different sorts of media from Australia and the globe.
As Rad suggested, if Australians are involved in a disaster or attack overseas, it gets a lot more media attention. This is just natural (it probably is part of human nature that news is more interesting if it involves someone more like you).
You’d want equal coverage for all events, but that is never going to happen. All news must be filtered in some way – a bias to local stories is inevitable.
4 December, 2008 at 5:30 pm
“a bias to local stories is inevitable.</i” – Nic
Bias, yes. Stupidity, no.
4 December, 2008 at 6:39 pm
“Personally, I’m all for extending democracy into the middle east. Iraq, for all its problems, is a better place to live now than it was under Saddam.” – Nic
Sadly, many Iraqis disagree with you.
4 December, 2008 at 7:34 pm
“Iraq, for all its problems, is a better place to live now than it was under Saddam.”
this is the last line of defence for the iraq war cheersquadders and it’s no surprise there running with it for all it’s worth. but probe beneath the spin from the rightwingers and you find a more sobering truth:
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/12/the-second-surg.html
there was no justification for the iraq war. none. we’ve been fed all sorts of shit in order to defend our invasion, and at the end of the day all the rightards can offer now is ’saddam was evil dictator’. therefore our actions were justified.
well here’s a newsflash kiddies: saddam not the only dictator running a country. so if you think the iraq invasion was justified because of big ol bad saddam, you must by logical reason be behind invasion of north korea, zimbabwe, burma, even china. are there any blair or bolt sheep who wanna pin their colours to THAT mast? anyone?
the iraq war teaches us many lessons, not the least of which is that there is a core of our media who were prepared to cheersquad the invasion of a soverieng nation, and to cheersquad purely for political expedience in order to play some strange warped culture war game with our society and the lives of iraqi citizens in the absence of emprical evidence or critical journalistic ability. sadly when i read the regurgitated bolt/blair talking points from Nic and her ilk, i wonder whether we have in fact learned anything at all from the quagmire that is iraq. the rightwing reaction to the latest mumbai attacks are a case in point.
4 December, 2008 at 8:01 pm
There is one important thing we’ve learned – that the rights approach to counter-terrorism is a highly effective enabler of terrorism and should be avoided at all costs.
5 December, 2008 at 4:49 am
““Iraq, for all its problems, is a better place to live now than it was under Saddam.”
this is the last line of defence for the iraq war cheersquadders and it’s no surprise there running with it for all it’s worth. but probe beneath the spin from the rightwingers and you find a more sobering truth:”
Spot on confessions, they’re just regurgitating the crap that Bolt spews.
Rad spewed:
“Don’t be ridiculous. ”
What like this?
“the Palestinians are not locked up in ghetto’s. They have every opportunity to turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other”
Why are you still here? You’ve proven that you have no credibilty troll!
5 December, 2008 at 5:48 am
When they invaded Iraq they said they had to get rid of Iraqs’ WMDs. When none were found the war mongers of the right changed that to ” Saddam was a dictactor and he had to be removed”.
They keep all quite on all the other dictactors around the world, especially their heros, the right wing dictactors in South America.
5 December, 2008 at 6:42 am
Geoff,
The US bit off more than it could chew with Iraq, Donald Rumsfeld and the rest of the admin thought it would take a few months and they would be greeted with open arms. They were wrong, they fucked up monumentally!
Now,N Korea has WMD, N Korea is run by a despot that is happy to see his nation starve. N Korea would be much harder miltary operation than the Iraq the US still hasn’t managed to fix hence there’s never talk of invading N Korea because of WMD or cruel despots.
If the rationale for invading Iraq was good, not cherry picked from crap intel surely then GW Bush and his grovelling, lying, poodles Howard and Blair would have been lobbying to invade N Korea first.
The invasion of Iraq had fuck all to do with WMD, it was a failed neocon experiment.
Now, before the raving wingnuts think they need to remind me that Hussein and Iraq were in contravention of the UNSC I say so what! So are Israel, they have been for decades but there’s never a peep from the rightards (or the USA) where Israel is concerned.
5 December, 2008 at 7:17 am
You then go on to make the assertion that “reason will never be a solution for this”. So what are you proposing as an answer? Unreason? Irrationality? Violence? Persecution? What?
That’s not what I am saying Badbod. I am saying that we are dealing with a pathological ideology that does not understand reason. You cannot reason with people that believe that it is the god given right to kill anyone that does not submit to their ideology.
This is why I believe that militant Islam is a group that we will never get rid of. All we can really do is try to protect ourselves from their attacks.
Badbod, do you honestly believe that an group like the Taliban can be reasoned with? Do you believe that they can be made to understand the value of human rights?
5 December, 2008 at 7:29 am
“Badbod, do you honestly believe that an group like the Taliban can be reasoned with?”
The Taleban halted the Afghan opium trade when co-operating with the US. The Taleban offered OBL on a platter if only Bush had shown us the ‘proof’ he said he had that OBL had orchestrated 911, (by definition Bush did not have proof)
The Taleban are pigs, the Taleban practice harsh Sharia Islamic law, however the Taleban are no worse than the NA Warlords that the coalition allied themselves with. People think that Afghani women were suppressed because of the Taleban, women in Afghanistan were suppressed period, regardless of who was in power, with the exception of course when the USSR occupied Afghanistan, that’s when it had a university that women could attend. Of course the US and it’s allies did everything it could to undermine the soviet occupation, they trained Mujaheddins, they even armed them with stingers FFS!
Maybe we should have assisted the USSR rather than arm and train the crazy Islamists?
Yeah the Taleban are pricks as far as I’m concerned but it’s quite false to claim that they cannot be reasoned with. Probably due to ignorance, or due to believing the rubbish that Bolt spews??? Dunno which but again Rad is wrong!
5 December, 2008 at 7:33 am
I might add that in the 90’s the Taleban were being courted in Texas by Texan Oilpeople, they were discussing the building of a trans-afghan pipeline.
5 December, 2008 at 7:42 am
The Taleban halted the Afghan opium trade when co-operating with the US. The Taleban offered OBL on a platter if only Bush had shown us the ‘proof’ he said he had that OBL had orchestrated 911, (by definition Bush did not have proof)
They refused to hand over OBL when there was a mountain of evidence that he was involved in global terrorism throughout the 1990’s and on 9/11.
The taliban created a safe haven for OBL throughout the 90’s when he was wanted for other terrorist acts. So when 9/11 happened, there was already a mountain of proof that supported OBL’s activities and sponsoring of terrorism.
If the taliban were willing to hand him over they would have years before 9/11.
Yeah the Taleban are pricks as far as I’m concerned but it’s quite false to claim that they cannot be reasoned with. Probably due to ignorance, or due to believing the rubbish that Bolt spews??? Dunno which but again Rad is wrong
Yes Rob, their beheading of women in public sports arenas for the crime of talking to men on the street is a sign of how they can be reasoned with.
5 December, 2008 at 7:47 am
“They refused to hand over OBL when there was a mountain of evidence that he was involved in global terrorism throughout the 1990’s and on 9/11.”
Bush said there was ‘proof’ but he wouldn’t present that ‘proof’ therefore it wasn’t ‘proof’! Do you get it or is it a little complicated for you?
“Yes Rob, their beheading of women in public sports arenas for the crime of talking to men on the street is a sign of how they can be reasoned with.”
If atrocities upset you then why aren’t you outraged that the coalition has allied themselves with pricks like Dostum? (you better hit wiki, your ignorance is showing) Pricks who rape young boys and practice ‘death by shipping container’ is it because you’re a hypocrite or are you just trying to show us all how ignorant you are?
I’ve given examples of the West dealing with the Taleban. You’ve just regurgitated the shit you’ve learned from Bolt. You are a very ignorant person!
5 December, 2008 at 7:50 am
Rad you need to read up on the massacre at Mazar al Sharif , where the two US CIA agents (who fucked up monumentally) were operating as ‘illegal combatants’ no uniform, no markings to identify themselves. One of them was killed, and if Bush was fair dinkum the other would be in Guantanamo Bay or Bagram Air base. Of course, it’s OK when we break the rules.
Go and learn a little about the world you live in. I won’t link you, I’ll let you choose your own sources (just avoid Bolt, he’s a liar)
5 December, 2008 at 7:57 am
Bush said there was ‘proof’ but he wouldn’t present that ‘proof’ therefore it wasn’t ‘proof’! Do you get it or is it a little complicated for you?
Oh whatever Rob. Now you are just sprouting idelogicaly charged propaganda. OBL had been linked to other attacks throughout the 1990’s.
I’ve given examples of the West dealing with the Taleban. You’ve just regurgitated the shit you’ve learned from Bolt. You are a very ignorant person!
So what Rob. The west tried to deal rationally with the Taliban before 9/11. History has now proven that this approach failed. The problem for the Taliban is that after 9/11 they crossed the line by refusing to hand over OBL. OBL have proven that he now had the capability to cause really serious damage on US soil and the US government could no longer do nothing about it.
If the Taliban were rational they would have just handed OBL over to the UN but they refused.
5 December, 2008 at 8:00 am
“the Taleban are no worse than the NA Warlords” – RobJ
Hardly surprising given that they are, for the most part, one and the same. Taliban became Northern Alliance in exchange for suitcases of US dollars.
5 December, 2008 at 8:02 am
RobJ – do you believe that there is no proof that OBL was responsible for 9/11? If so, I never realised that you were a truther.
5 December, 2008 at 8:03 am
Michael, I don’t think that’s true. The NA are not elements of the Taleban under a different name.
5 December, 2008 at 8:22 am
“RobJ – do you believe that there is no proof that OBL was responsible for 9/11? If so, I never realised that you were a truther.”
I can remember Bush claiming there was proof but he wouldn’t actually produce it. I have a better memory than you. I actually understand what the word ‘proof’ means, it doesn’t mean evidence that we are not prepared to show you. The Taleban played a game of Brinksmanship, initially it looked like they lost, seven years later though it’s not so clear.
“I never realised that you were a truther.”
I’m not, what’s a ‘truther’ an ad hom?
“Michael, I don’t think that’s true. The NA are not elements of the Taleban under a different name.”
Nic is right, but yeah if I was Taleban and someone was offering me a suitcase of money……
Rad, why do you single out the Taleban and choose to ignore the atrocities of the NA? Is it because you’re a hypocrite or just ignorant (or both)
5 December, 2008 at 8:32 am
RadMatt, saying that “reason is not the answer” is not the same as saying that the Taliban (which you have neatly equated with the entire Islamist movement) cannot be reasoned with. Do you see the difference?
5 December, 2008 at 8:36 am
I can remember Bush claiming there was proof but he wouldn’t actually produce it.
Where is your evidence that the Taliban were not provided with evidence from the UN of OBL’s terrorist activities?
The Taleban played a game of Brinksmanship, initially it looked like they lost, seven years later though it’s not so clear
Oh so you now admit that the Taliban should have handed over OBL?!
Nic is right, but yeah if I was Taleban and someone was offering me a suitcase of money……
Oh, so you mean like from Billionaire OBL?!
Rad, why do you single out the Taleban and choose to ignore the atrocities of the NA? Is it because you’re a hypocrite or just ignorant (or both)
Because we are talking about the war in Afghanistan. I said that Militant Islam is a group that cannot be reasoned with. Because of this all we can do is protect ourselves from their attacks. OBL attacked the US and the Taliban refused to hand him over so the UN approved military action against them.
I personally don’t believe that humanity will ever be able to remove all dictators or those that commit atrocities against others. All we can do is attempt to contain them and act against them when they threaten world security.
The problem is that as long as we strive as a society for greater human rights and dignity, their will always be groups and ideologies that will strive harder to destroy us.
5 December, 2008 at 8:43 am
“I can remember Bush claiming there was proof but he wouldn’t actually produce it.
Where is your evidence that the Taliban were not provided with evidence from the UN of OBL’s terrorist activities?”
Mullah Omar asked to see the proof, Bush refused, that you can’t remember this highlights that you are debating from very shaky ground.
“Oh so you now admit that the Taliban should have handed over OBL?! ”
It would have been to their benefit, that is obvious. I never argued that they shouldn’t, you are such a dishonest person. Why don’t you just debate what I’ve written, not what you imagined I wrote? Oh that’s right, it’s because you’re a troll.
Sorry Rad, you haven’t answered the question, why is it OK to ally ourselves with people who i would contend are equally ruthless but even more lawless than the Taleban.
Because is not a very good answer!
Why have you not once condemned the coalition for allying with reprehensible murderous thieves?
5 December, 2008 at 8:43 am
RadMatt, saying that “reason is not the answer” is not the same as saying that the Taliban (which you have neatly equated with the entire Islamist movement) cannot be reasoned with. Do you see the difference?
I think that you are misunderstanding me. When I say that reason is not the answer, I am saying that reason alone will not stop Militant Islam. At some point military action and economic sanctions against them has to be part of the equation. Especially when their fundamental beliefs include martyrdom and submit to us or die and they are intend of annihilating us all from this earth.
BTW – I think that the Taliban are a very strong example of Militant Islam in today’s world. Of course they are not the only group that fall under that umbrella.
5 December, 2008 at 8:50 am
Mullah Omar asked to see the proof, Bush refused, that you can’t remember this highlights that you are debating from very shaky ground
If you cannot produce proof then you are debating on very shaky ground. Especially considering that the war in afganistan is based on UN demands to hand over OBL.
Are you saying that the UN refused to provide the Taliban required.
Also define the kind of evidence that Mullar Omar wanted?
You are looking more and more like a truther Rob.
5 December, 2008 at 9:07 am
“If you cannot produce proof”
From the troll who always claims every single time he’s caught out (which is rather frequent) that he was being sarcastic or made a typo.
You’re not very bright are you Matt? I’m suggesting that your ‘fantastic education’ was actually crap. I don’t have to prove anything to you, what I’ve written about has been well documented, of course you’d never learn this from the sources you favour (Bolt) That’s your problem, you’re an ignorant wingnut.
I don’t really care for improving your knowledge, you’re a twat, I enjoy watching you consistently humiliate yourself. Actually you’re worse than a twat, your a prick that supported the killing of countless Iraqis, your a prick that likes to continue the proliferation of wingnut lies, ie you’re quite a foul person IMNSHO. You lie about the plight of Palestinians (or you’re so stupid you really ought to stop posting).
BTW – prove this idiotic statement you made recently:
“the Palestinians are not locked up in ghetto’s. They have every opportunity to turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other”
LOL
And while your at it, tell us why it’s OK for the Northern Alliance to rape and pillage in the name of the coalition, where’s your outrage hypocrite?
What’s a ‘truther’ is it one of these terms Boltards like to throw around like ‘terrorist’ or ‘the left’?
5 December, 2008 at 9:10 am
No RadMatt, I am not misunderstanding you, I am pointing out the careless use of words which left your post open to misinterpretation.
5 December, 2008 at 9:17 am
What Nic is suggesting Rob (and RadMatt is echoing, probably without understanding what he is saying) is that you are implying that there was a conspiracy to hide the truth about 9/11. They are trying to associate your views with those of the loonies who thought it was actually done by the Jews, or the CIA, or the Illuminati, or something.
5 December, 2008 at 9:24 am
BadBob is right: ‘truthers’ are nutters who think 9/11 was an inside job. nowhere has rob written that he believes this, which means the only reason Nic and rad would use it is because neither of them can argue against the points he raised. just like they use apologia for terrorists, pedophiles to describe those against the NT intervention etc etc.
it isn’t a crime that the wingnuts choose to regurgitate bolt/blair talking points, but that they choose to do it on this site where such tactics are easily spotted from a mile away.
5 December, 2008 at 9:25 am
Yes, when one can’t debate they just make shit up. I guessed that but I wanted to hear it from a wingnut.
That people who openly supported the killing of countless Iraqis (just to get one man, when the WMD excuse dried up) think I’m a lunatic is no skin off my nose. I wouldn’t want respect from chickenhawks who cheer lead the Neocon lies from the safety of their keyboard.
Spew rubbish like “Iraq, for all its problems, is a better place to live now than it was under Saddam”
Fuck ‘em! They so openly display that they haven’t got a clue and are just swallowing BS wingnut rhetoric from the likes of bigots like Bolt.
5 December, 2008 at 9:27 am
No RadMatt, I am not misunderstanding you, I am pointing out the careless use of words which left your post open to misinterpretation
Anyway, I have further clarified what I was saying.
And while your at it, tell us why it’s OK for the Northern Alliance to rape and pillage in the name of the coalition, where’s your outrage hypocrite?
Give it a rest Rob. Where did I say that it was OK. Please provide evidence that I did Rob.
I don’t have to prove anything to you, what I’ve written about has been well documented, of course you’d never learn this from the sources you favour (Bolt) That’s your problem, you’re an ignorant wingnut.
In other words you cannot prove it and it is just one of your truther opinions.
5 December, 2008 at 9:29 am
The US had the greatest opportunity to stabilise and to moderate the politics in the Afghan area when they helped oust the Russians.
The US funded the whole campaign which resulted in the place being blown to bits. All they had to do was spend some money to re-build the schools and hospitals but instead this was left to the hard line muslims via funding from elsewhere which resulted in the locals hating the USA.
The same thing has happened in Africa where Saudi influences have created massive extremist muslim groups.
5 December, 2008 at 9:30 am
Yes, when one can’t debate they just make shit up. I guessed that but I wanted to hear it from a wingnut.
LOL You mean make shit up like this rob;
And while your at it, tell us why it’s OK for the Northern Alliance to rape and pillage in the name of the coalition, where’s your outrage hypocrite
You really are a piece of work Rob. You have no shame do you?!
5 December, 2008 at 9:48 am
“The US had the greatest opportunity to stabilise and to moderate the politics in the Afghan area when they helped oust the Russians.”
As I see it Afghanistan under the Soviets was a better place than it is now. But we couldn’t have the Soviets in Afghanistan so we had a proxy war where we (the Western Allies, specifically the US and UK) trained and armed the very people we now label terrorists.
“You really are a piece of work Rob. You have no shame do you?!”
Erm Rad, you called me a ‘truther’ mereley because I understand the conflict in Afghanistan better than you, you have no evidence, you just made it up. Had you even heard of Dostum and Mazar al Sharif before today? If you had you ought to be outraged that we’ve allied ourselves with these pricks.
“Give it a rest Rob. Where did I say that it was OK. Please provide evidence that I did Rob. ”
So you don’t support the coalitions alliance with the Northern Alliance? Or do you, you keep dodging the issue.
5 December, 2008 at 9:49 am
Confessions, BadBob, RobJ
Truther is a term that encompasses all people who say that there is no proof that OBL was behind 9/11. People who believe that it was the Jews who did, or that Bush did it or let it happen are sub-sets of the general truther movement. There are many wide varieties of it. General skepticism in the face of the evidence counts as truthering, as there is proof that OBL and the organisation he headed was behind it.
I’m still uncertain whether RobJ is saying merely that Bush provided no evidence to the Taleban or is saying that there is no evidence at all that OBL did it. The last proposition is crazy – as OBL has himself admitted that he did it.
5 December, 2008 at 9:51 am
RobJ – “As I see it Afghanistan under the Soviets was a better place than it is now.”
Why? I doubt many Afghanis would agree with you.
5 December, 2008 at 9:57 am
“Truther is a term that encompasses all people who say that there is no proof that OBL was behind 9/11″
So somebody who actually remembers GW talking about ‘proof’ but refusing to show that ‘proof’ is a truther?
No, Nic, where did I claim OBL was not behind 911? I didn’t so why do you suggest that I did?
“I’m still uncertain whether RobJ is saying merely that Bush provided no evidence to the Taleban or is saying that there is no evidence at all that OBL did it.”
Well you have problems with comprehension.
But we already know that, I say TT/Herald Sun is shit, you say I ‘hate’ stupid people, you are great at reading between the lines, you have to because often your argument lacks merit, so you resort to ad homs, ie you try to divert attention from the debate by labeling me a ‘truther’ or a hater of dumb people. Thus dismissing everything I write.
Like I say though, it’s no skin off my nose, anybody who supported the killing of invasion of Iraq and still does to this day claiming it’s actually a better place now has bugger all credibilty.
5 December, 2008 at 10:04 am
RobJ – I’m still unclear. You say that George Bush has provided no proof that OBL is behind 9/11 and then you say that you haven’t said OBL is not behind 9/11.
The US government has provided ample proof that OBL is behind 9/11. Either you believe that proof or not – you can’t claim that it does not exist.
5 December, 2008 at 10:12 am
It seems to me that the massacre of Taleban prisoners at Mazar-I-Sharif prison by the Northern Alliance was probably an act of revenge for the earlier massacre of Hazara, Tajik and Uzbek civilians by the Taleban forces who took over that town, given that the leaders of the Northern Alliance troops on the spot were an Hazara, an Uzbek and a Tajik and that tribal feuding and the code of ‘an eye for an eye’ is still very much prevalent in Afghanistan, I believe that this would have been sufficient motive for their actions at the prison:
http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/reports98/afghan/Afrepor0-02.htm
This isn’t to justify the prison massacre, just to try and put it into some context and perhaps provide some background for it.
There does appear to be some doubt about the allegations against Dostum that he deliberately suffocated prisoners in containers, I’ve tried to google a reliable independent source, but so far haven’t found any sites that could be said to be unbiased. Wiki seems to be the most balanced I’ve found on Dostum and those accusations so far (although I know wiki isn’t necessarily the best source and I usually try to avoid quoting it) :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Rashid_Dostum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasht-i-Leili_massacre
5 December, 2008 at 10:15 am
“RobJ – I’m still unclear. You say that George Bush has provided no proof that OBL is behind 9/11 and then you say that you haven’t said OBL is not behind 9/11.”
Why are you unclear? When George Bush demanded the Taleban hand over OBL he said he had ‘proof’ but refused to divulge so by definition it wasn’t proof, this is really basic stuff.
Personally I think OBL had something to do with it, I’m pretty sure the prick is happy to take the credit. I am not claiming there isn’t any evidence or even proof I’m telling you all what a twat Bush is and how many twats are prepared to take the liar at face value.
“you can’t claim that it does not exist.”
Go back to school. Come back when you’ve learned to stop putting words in others mouths. You have a track record of attempting to put words in my mouth, of course you’ve failed every time.
5 December, 2008 at 10:17 am
You don’t think this truther thing could be a bit of a Godwin, do you Nic? (Shut up RadMatt, I’m not interested in what you have to say about this.)
5 December, 2008 at 10:18 am
RobJ – no-one is putting words into your mouth. I’m genuinely interested how you can claim that Bush and his government has not provided sufficient evidence to establish that OBL did it.
FWIW, I’ve no interested in re-opening your earlier pwning over the compulsory voting issue.
5 December, 2008 at 10:22 am
BadBob – not in this context, where it is relevant to the discussions on the Taleban and the causes for the invasion of Afghanistan. The claim that there is no proof that OBL was responsible for 9/11 is a relevant topic to discuss.
5 December, 2008 at 10:24 am
Personally I think OBL had something to do with it, I’m pretty sure the prick is happy to take the credit. I am not claiming there isn’t any evidence or even proof I’m telling you all what a twat Bush is and how many twats are prepared to take the liar at face value
You argument falls apart rob when you consider that the UN sanctioned the invasion of Afghanistan. If GWB was holding back evidence, then why did the UN and a host of other countries agree to go to war?!
You allegation that Bush refused to give the Taliban evidence of OBL’s involvement in 9/11 just doesn’t make sense.
Also there is the elephant in the room so to speak which is that OBL was already wanted for serious terrorist attacks made in the 90’s. The Taliban’s refusal to hand over OBL was already in breach of UN resolution 1373.
5 December, 2008 at 10:25 am
“There does appear to be some doubt about the allegations against Dostum that he deliberately suffocated prisoners in containers,”
To his credit, according to the documentary they did put air holes in the shipping containers, whilst they were full of prisoners. Of course the air holes were made with bullets.
Where are the prisoners? When the doco makers wanted to investigate an alleged mass grave the US Marines wouldn’t let them.
Anyway the most interesting thing about the massacre (apart from the US bombing the wrong people in the prison (fort)) was the behavior of the two CIA guys who stuffed up, they were behaving exactly like the ‘unlawful combatants’ the US locks up and throws away the key for.
5 December, 2008 at 10:28 am
One of his earlier documentaries apparently verges on HIV/Aids denial. I’m not sure if he is the best person to present a documentary on something that would be remarkably difficult for the US to keep quiet. Is there any evidence other than his documentary? I cannot seem to find anything else on a google search.
5 December, 2008 at 10:29 am
Thank you RadMatt for shutting up about my Godwin question. You are a gentleman, if not a scholar.
5 December, 2008 at 10:36 am
“RobJ – no-one is putting words into your mouth. I’m genuinely interested how you can claim that Bush and his government has not provided sufficient evidence to establish that OBL did it.”
Because when he (Bush) was demanding OBL’s head from Mullah Omar he refused to show him the ‘proof’. What happened after that was moot because the Taleban were ousted so had he eventually provided the proof Omar would have no longer been in a position to comply. It’s not my fault that you can’t remember these events, maybe they just were not reported on your favourite media outlet.
My claim is very straightforward. I have never made the claim that there is no evidence of OBL’s involvement.
5 December, 2008 at 10:52 am
Because when he (Bush) was demanding OBL’s head from Mullah Omar he refused to show him the ‘proof’
So was the UN Rob.
I find it interesting that you refuse to provide proof of your theory. It’s all good and well for you to claim that Bush refused to hand over proof of OBL’s involvement in 9/11 but it is another thing for the to be true.
BTW – you still haven’t addressed the UN in all of this. Why didn’t Mullah Omar hand over OBL at the request of the UN?
5 December, 2008 at 10:57 am
Thankyou RobJ. I was genuinely unclear from your earlier statements whether you thought there was no proof provided in general, or whether there was no proof provided to the Taleban. See, for instance, my comment at 9:49am
5 December, 2008 at 11:04 am
“To his credit, according to the documentary they did put air holes in the shipping containers, whilst they were full of prisoners. Of course the air holes were made with bullets.”
Did you read the links Rob ?
from the second wiki one : “Hilal Uddin, Deputy Interior Minister of Afghanistan, blames negligence for the deaths: “He [Dostum] is a stupid man. These containers are for carrying goods, not for carrying human beings. But still he should have been smart enough to shoot holes in the containers so these prisoners could breathe.” Describing specific responsibility, he says, “When Kamal reached Sheberghan and discovered that hundreds of his prisoners had died, he was afraid and just buried them on the spot. He was particularly afraid of what Gen. Dostum would say when he found out. But, in my view, Kamal did not want to kill these people. He was using these containers because he was worried about security and a break-out”
You will note the term “He SHOULD have been smart enough to shoot holes in the containers so these prisoners could breathe….”
Also the doco maker himself admitted that he had no evidence of what he was making his film about — that has to lead us to question the credibility of his so-called documentary.
5 December, 2008 at 11:07 am
“BTW – you still haven’t addressed ”
Fuck – are you for real, you never back up your bogus posts you just tell lies about sarcasm or typos.
Tell me Rad, what country do the Palestinians have?
Tell me why you refuse to condemn the coalitions alliance with NA scum?
“I find it interesting that you refuse to provide proof of your theory. ”
But you don’t even understand the meaning of the word, like I say it’s not a theory, just because you’re ignorant of what happened prior to the invasion off Afghanistan why the fuck should I do your hom,ework.
I don’t care to engage with pricks who to this day support the killing of innocent civilians.
It’s also rather strange hearing a wingnut make appeals to the authority of the UN only when it suits them. If not complying with UNSC resolutions deserves bombing then why on earth aren’t you lobbying your neocon heroes to bomb Israel. Or do you only give a fuck when it suits your sick agenda?
5 December, 2008 at 11:08 am
“Michael, I don’t think that’s true. The NA are not elements of the Taleban under a different name. – Nic
‘Tis I’m afraid.
Though not all. Some NA stayed in the north biding their time, but the US ‘faciliated’ a good deal of conversion from Taliban to NA.
5 December, 2008 at 11:12 am
““He [Dostum] is a stupid man.”
He’s a nasty bastard but he’s hardly a stupid man.
5 December, 2008 at 11:21 am
Fuck – are you for real, you never back up your bogus posts you just tell lies about sarcasm or typos.
LMAO LOL You are really funny Rob.
Have you forgotten already what you have said;
I don’t care to engage with pricks who to this day support the killing of innocent civilians.
Oh and;
And while your at it, tell us why it’s OK for the Northern Alliance to rape and pillage in the name of the coalition, where’s your outrage hypocrite
You harp on about others using sarcasm and then try and claim that they were lying, then in the same breath you com out with comments I have just highlighted.
You are a really piece of work Rob.
5 December, 2008 at 11:22 am
“He’s a nasty bastard but he’s hardly a stupid man.”
No argument there Rob, but from what I can gather from reading about them, all those Afghan warlords are pretty much the same…You’ll find that throughout history, the Afghans have never been big on taking prisoners..
As to the question of the coalition aligning with the NA, I think that can be explained by both political and military expediency — the advantage given by being allied with people who have local knowledge — and of course the old adage “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”..
5 December, 2008 at 11:26 am
As to the question of the coalition aligning with the NA, I think that can be explained by both political and military expediency — the advantage given by being allied with people who have local knowledge — and of course the old adage “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”..
Be very, very careful there Gavin. Rob might accuse you of saying; it’s OK for the Northern Alliance to rape and pillage in the name of the coalition, where’s your outrage hypocrite.
5 December, 2008 at 11:31 am
“It’s also rather strange hearing a wingnut make appeals to the authority of the UN only when it suits them… Or do you only give a fuck when it suits your sick agenda?”
Agreed Rob.
Where is Rads mock indignation and shrill demands for recognition of the UN’s authority when Israel is discussed?
Just a couple from among dozens of UN resolutions that Israel has breached, for Rads benefit..
‘Palestinian Refugees have the right to return to their homes in Israel.’
General Assembly Resolution 194, Dec. 11, 1948
‘Israel’s occupation of Palestine is Illegal.’
Security Council Resolution 242, Nov. 22, 1967
‘Israel’s settlements in Palestine are Illegal.’
Security Council Resolution 446, March 22, 1979
http://www.jatonyc.org/UNresolutions.html
5 December, 2008 at 11:35 am
“You are a really piece of work Rob.”
Typo.
5 December, 2008 at 11:37 am
Or maybe sarcasm.
5 December, 2008 at 11:40 am
or lies.
5 December, 2008 at 11:50 am
Never!
5 December, 2008 at 12:00 pm
“No argument there Rob, but from what I can gather from reading about them, all those Afghan warlords are pretty much the same…You’ll find that throughout history, the Afghans have never been big on taking prisoners..”
I understand this Gavin, I haven’t read your Wiki link (yet) but I understand that if you’ve surrendered in A’stan then you will be spared, usually you just changed sides. These guys had surrendered, then those CIA spooks went and fucked it all up. The prisoners revolted and they were packed into containers for their troubles. Basically it was a case of the CIA not understanding or being wilfully ignorant of the situation. Either way they were by Bush’s own definition ‘illegal combatants’.
5 December, 2008 at 12:55 pm
Crikey, Andrew Bolt has to have the most shallow, child-like understanding and view of political and social science in the media. This stuff is laughably puerile:
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/respect_for_those_who_showed_little/
5 December, 2008 at 1:21 pm
RadP is still in here laughing his arse off. I suspect he must have a hell of a lot of arse. Perhaps he’s all arse? Certainly smells like one…
You know RadP, proven liar, it doesn’t make you look any smarter to pepper your idiocy with LMAOs and LOLs. Although, mathematically, that’s a statement that 0 + 0 = 0.
5 December, 2008 at 1:37 pm
Rob,
From all I’ve read so far, and its not easy to find unbiased accounts, some of the prisoners had been brought in without being properly searched and had smuggled hand grenades in, which they used when they discovered that they were going to be questioned instead of being released and allowed to go home, which it is claimed they were told would happen if they surrendered by Dostum….I’m not sure anyone would really believe that soldiers who have just been captured would just immediately be released again though.
There are also claims that some prisoners had been summarily executed on the spot by the NA troops, and that’s what triggered the revolt — given the massacre in the township by the Taleban and the tribal background of the NA commanders at the prison, which I referred to in my earlier post, these claims could very well be true..I guess we’ll probably never know for certain.
Anyway it seems they over-powered the guards that were immediately around them, got into the armoury, bunkered themselves into buildings and basements and, well, we know the rest…the air-strikes that came in seem to be a controversial point with the coalition forces being accused of being in breach of the Geneva Convention for using disproportionate means (from wiki), but I suppose the commanders on the ground wanted to minimise troop losses, and you also have to consider if the term “disproportionate means” is really applicable in a combat situation. Personally I reckon there’s no such thing, if you’re in a battle you hit the other guy with everything you’ve got.
I’m not sure why you keep referring to the 2 CIA agents as “illegal combatants”, it appears that they were there to interrogate the prisoners for information, it wasn’t illegal for them to have been dressed in Arab garb, as far as I can tell they were never really in combat and no doubt were dressed as Arabs so that they could walk amongst the prisoners without being recognised to hopefully overhear any useful information — that’s a common enough intelligence gathering method…
5 December, 2008 at 2:02 pm
“There are also claims that some prisoners had been summarily executed on the spot by the NA troops, and that’s what triggered the revolt — given the massacre in the township by the Taleban and the tribal background of the NA commanders at the prison, which I referred to in my earlier post, these claims could very well be true..I guess we’ll probably never know for certain.”
The footage I saw was of one of the CIA blokes hassling the prisoners, getting overpowered and losing his weapon to the prisoners. That I believe was the beginning of the revolt.
“I’m not sure why you keep referring to the 2 CIA agents as “illegal combatants””
They were on the battlefield, they were not in uniform, had no distinct dress/badge. according to the US they would be classed as illegal combatants, thus locked up for years with no charge and no protection from the Geneva conventions.
“it wasn’t illegal for them to have been dressed in Arab garb”
I thought they were wearing bomber jackets. Either way it’s the US’s definition I’m using. The British SAS up on the hill firing into the fort, they were wearing ‘Arab Garb’ If I remember correctly.
“and you also have to consider if the term “disproportionate means” is really applicable in a combat situation. Personally I reckon there’s no such thing, if you’re in a battle you hit the other guy with everything you’ve got.”
By that rationale maybe we should have just nuked Afghanistan. Of course I’m being flippant but if there were no such thing applicable in a combat situation,you’d just kill everybody you could, you’d take no prisoners. I don’t want an army representing me to act in that manner. I think it’s a cop out to say ‘well they’re worse’ (I’m not claiming you’ve made such a claim) If we think we’re better, if we try to gain the moral high ground then we need to hold ourselves to higher standards.
Besides, terrorism will never be solved by military action, terrorism is criminal behavior and therefore should be dealt with by police. I cite Northern Ireland as an example, the military action forced a stalemate, now with negotiation things look a lot better for the people of Northern Ireland. This is what pisses me off about Blair, he should’ve known better. Howard? Well he’s a redneck wingnut like GW, I didn’t expect better from him.
5 December, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Some good letters in todays Hun. Bolt gets some actual criticism from the readers and they published them. Wow.
5 December, 2008 at 2:14 pm
We have a copy of the Sun in work, it might be time for a visit to the dunny!
5 December, 2008 at 2:35 pm
“it doesn’t make you look any smarter to pepper your idiocy with LMAOs and LOLs. ”
to rad’s credit at least he doesn’t do that stupid idiotic rightard laugh: BWAHAHAHAHAH! i seriously don’t know anyone who laughs like a crying baby.
just my opion but i’ll take LOL any day over that crap.
5 December, 2008 at 2:41 pm
“Be very, very careful there Gavin. Rob might accuse you of saying; it’s OK for the Northern Alliance to rape and pillage in the name of the coalition, where’s your outrage hypocrite.”
You are a hypocrite, I called you on it simple as that!
You still haven’t explained why it was OK to ally with Dostum.
You still haven’t told us which country Palestinains have every opportunity to improve.
You’re not only a hypocrite but you’re an ignorant liar too. Let’s face it, you never even heard of Dostum or Mazar al Sharif before today, you clearly have no idea of what’s happening in Israel yet you continue to post on such topics. Better to stop posting Rad, then we’ll just assume you’re an idiot, though, through your posts you’ve removed all doubt. You’re way out of your league. You only come here to troll and humiliate yourself.
5 December, 2008 at 2:50 pm
At the point that the 2 CIA agents were there, it wasn’t actually a battlefield as yet — it became a battlefield after the first CIA agent was over-powered and killed, the second one then made his escape over the wall…
I’m not positive about the ‘Arab garb’, it was mentioned that that was what they were wearing in one of the articles I read…Sorry, I read rather a lot and can’t remember which one it was, if its not in one of the linked ones, I’m afraid I’ve lost it now.
“…if there were no such thing applicable in a combat situation,you’d just kill everybody you could, you’d take no prisoners….”
Very few prisoners are normally taken in the heat of combat, there usually isn’t the time or the opportunity to do so….Most are taken during the “mopping up” operations after the main fighting has ceased. Don’t get me wrong though Rob, I’m not defending what happened at the prison, I’m just trying to put some sort of background to it…From reading the various articles I was looking at, I got the overall impression that the prisoners revolted because they thought — rightly or wrongly — that they were going to be executed anyway…
I don’t think you can really use the IRA as an example of how to deal with Al-Quaeda, Hamas or Hezbollah, given that the IRA was a domestically based organisation carrying out attacks on home soil, whereas those others are all based externally to the countries they attack.
Therefore, given the reluctance we’ve seen so far from those governments where these terror organisations are based to pursue them, who’s police force is going to have the jurisdiction to investigate those organisations and how will they go about making any arrests that may come from them ? The reason the English and Irish police were eventually able to make some progress against the IRA was that they had jurisdiction where the IRA was based.
5 December, 2008 at 2:59 pm
“You still haven’t explained why it was OK to ally with Dostum.”
I’ll have a bit of a bite at it…albeit not from the moralistic angle..
I think from a purely pragmatic military point of view, it was sensible to ally with the NA, simply because its better to enter into a war with an ally against one enemy than to enter one against two enemies, there’s no doubt that having the NA as allies with their local knowledge of terrain and people saved coalition soldiers’ lives…As the Russians found to their cost, Afghanistan is a very unforgiving place.
5 December, 2008 at 3:01 pm
“At the point that the 2 CIA agents were there, it wasn’t actually a battlefield as yet — it became a battlefield after the first CIA agent was over-powered and killed, the second one then made his escape over the wall…”
Yeah, I know, the CIA guys fucked it all up with their aggressive interrogation techniques. That they fucked up is really not up for debate.
“I don’t think you can really use the IRA as an example of how to deal with Al-Quaeda, Hamas or Hezbollah, given that the IRA was a domestically based organisation carrying out attacks on home soil,”
Tell that to the Aussies that were slayed in Germany. The IRA are not in the same league as al Qaeda IMHO however they are terrorists, therefore criminal and need to be dealt with by police.
“I got the overall impression that the prisoners revolted because they thought — rightly or wrongly — that they were going to be executed anyway…”
As I understand it, it was the CIA who caused the revolt, Dostum was most upset with the US actions.
“Therefore, given the reluctance we’ve seen so far from those governments where these terror organisations are based to pursue them”
Afghanistan’s Govt is a puppet govt run by the Mayor of Kabul, they are in no position to solve anything, they are totally dependent on NATO.
“The reason the English and Irish police were eventually able to make some progress against the IRA was that they had jurisdiction where the IRA was based.”
I see what you’re saying but I still maintain the problem will not be solved militarily. NATO has a big problem in Afghanistan, they’re fully aware of this this is why the likes of Gates and Petreaus have finally conceded that at some point they will have to talk to their enemy, ie sit down with elements of the Taleban. Ultimately it will need to be solved by Afghani Police, I don’t see this happening in the near future.
HAMAS and Hezbollah are not like al Qaeda. Hezbollah are a political party with a military wing, HAMAS are pretty much the only people who provide aid and welfare to Palestinians (unlike Fatah who just gave all the dosh to Arafat and his wife) HAMAS are the democratically elected leaders in Gaza, as a result it would be their right to have a military wing.
al Qaeda are terrorists.
5 December, 2008 at 3:04 pm
“I think from a purely pragmatic military point of view, it was sensible to ally with the NA, simply because its better to enter into a war with an ally against one enemy than to enter one against two enemies,”
But then you have no moral high ground over the Taleban.
A referendum would be a interesting, see whether Afghanis prefer the NA over the Taleban.. Bear in mind that the last time the NA had control of Kabul 50 000 people died.
More later..
5 December, 2008 at 3:28 pm
RobJ – HAMAS are terrorists. Of that there can be no doubt. What, are you an apologist for terrorists now?
5 December, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Thanks Rob,
It’s getting too hard to quote and re-quote…I agree with you on the points you listed re the CIA agents screwing up, but I’d probably contend that the military wing of Hezbollah and Hamas are closer to terrorists than soldiers.
“But then you have no moral high ground over the Taleban”
That’s probably true as well, but I suppose given that we had declared war on the Taleban over the Al-Quaeda issue, the question of the moral high ground was probably a moot point — and the NA were a readily available and usable resource against them…As I said, I’m not trying to justify the morals of the decision, just trying to point out the military reasoning that would most likely have been behind it.
A referendum between the NA and the Taleban might be interesting…I’m not sure who’d win that one, although I think the NA are probably slightly more liberal in their views than the Taleban, it would be a very slight difference though…
I’m not sure about talks with the Taleban either, the 2 sides would appear to be worlds apart and I can’t see any possibility of a compromise, but then again stranger things have happened in the past…
The IRA attack in Germany was a very rare overseas action by them…and in the end it was because the British police could get to them on home soil that they were negated.
“al Qaeda IMHO however they are terrorists, therefore criminal and need to be dealt with by police.”
Yes, but who’s police force ? Consensus says they are based in Pakistan but it seems unlikely that the Pakistani police will be going after them any time soon.
5 December, 2008 at 5:55 pm
“Yes, but who’s police force? Consensus says they are based in Pakistan but it seems unlikely that the Pakistani police will be going after them any time soon.”
I agree, it’s a dilemma.
5 December, 2008 at 8:38 pm
“RobJ – HAMAS are terrorists. Of that there can be no doubt. What, are you an apologist for terrorists now? – Nic
Including someone who is a member of Haams and is a teacher or a social worker?
This is just silly and renders the term virtually meaningless.
5 December, 2008 at 10:51 pm
Fatah were/are Terrorists, yet they are now armed and funded by the US, and negotiate with Israel.
———————-
“This is just silly and renders the term virtually meaningless.”
The term ‘terrorist’ was rendered meaningless years ago.
All bombings are acts of terrorism if they cause death and terror amongst civilian populations. That’s why Bush, and others, now use “extremist”, and why Obama will probably water it down to “radicals” (a word Bush has also occasionally used to refer to acts of violence most of us would have expected to have been labeled as the work of ‘terrorists’).
As Philip K Dick once put it, “The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words,
you can control the people who must use the words.”
6 December, 2008 at 8:38 am
“The term ‘terrorist’ was rendered meaningless years ago.
All bombings are acts of terrorism if they cause death and terror amongst civilian populations.”
Agreed.
I bet Nic is blissfully unaware of the CIAs involvement in car bombings
If Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorists then so are the US, Israel and just about everybody involved in a conflict.
I wonder if Nic ever condemned that ghastly act by the IDF where they dropped shit loads of cluster munitions on Lebanon? Did ya Nic, or do you follow the typical Bolt outlook that it’s only terrorism when the other side does it?
Link us to where you’ve criticised Israeli acts of terrorism (and there are plenty) or kindly STFU!
6 December, 2008 at 10:06 am
Nic’s comment is typical of blair/bolt logic. timmy and andy recently have posted about how those who try to understand the root cause of terrorist attacks in order to prevent them are apologia for terrorists – typical fuckwittery. apparently we should be shooting first and asking questions later or as rob says it’s only terrorism when it’s the ‘bad guys’. thank god india isn’t didn’t shoot first and ask questions later! the simple fact is that if there was to be a simple fact concerning terrorism it would be that things are never as black and white as you want them to be.
“I bet Nic is blissfully unaware…”
i’ll bet Nic is also blissfully unaware that for decades nations have struggled with how to deal with hamas, such is the complexity of international relations when the organisation your country labels a terrorist group is the democratically elected leader and approved of by the majority of palestinians. i did think there was one western nation that did recognise hamas/fatah as the government, but can’t remember where i read that or what country it is.
i dunno, the only thing i can say is it must be fucking wonderful to live in a world where everything can be reduced down to the most simplistic, lowest common denominator, or to just view life through black and white tinted glasses!
6 December, 2008 at 10:34 am
As Philip K Dick once put it, “The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words,
you can control the people who must use the words.”
And Orwell had his “newspeak”.
6 December, 2008 at 10:50 am
Nic (and Rad) when Hamas were democratically elected in free and fair elections the US and Israel spat the dummy, armed Fatah and sent them on their way after Hamas, thing is Hamas kicked their arse.
Lets face it people like yourselves are pig ignorant! You’re reduced to the tactics of Bolt, ie when your narrow world view is challenged (by stuff that the likes of Bolt would never write about) you resort to labeling others as supporters of terrorism.
The siege of Falujah was an act of terrorism, I bet both Nic and Rad supported it. Ignorant hypocrites.
6 December, 2008 at 4:54 pm
“the only thing i can say is it must be fucking wonderful to live in a world where everything can be reduced down to the most simplistic, lowest common denominator, or to just view life through black and white tinted glasses!”
It’d certainly mean reading and soaking up a lot less news and information. And far less troubling for the mind and morals. But even The Professional Idiot would have to be unnerved by the number of his readers who say they won’t read any other media now but his, because it’s all full of Green Hitler lies and Evil Pagan Lefty propaganda.
7 December, 2008 at 5:58 am
Yeah, Darryl. A lot on Bolts’ blog has said time and time again they only get the news from him. The idiots don’t realise that Bolt gets all his news from the evil lefty commo media himself.
7 December, 2008 at 9:32 am
“the only thing i can say is it must be fucking wonderful to live in a world where everything can be reduced down to the most simplistic, lowest common denominator, or to just view life through black and white tinted glasses!”
That’s meaningless. “Lowest common denominator” doesn’t have meaning you are trying to ascribe to it. Maybe you meant “simplist terms”? You can’t have white tinted glasses. If you looked at life through black and white tinted glasses, you’d see everything in various shades of gray. I think that has the opposite meaning of what you are looking for.
You are an aplogist for terrorism if you seek out the root causes of terrorism and come up with it was the victims fault. You are also an apologist for terrorism if you ignore the religious reasons that the terrorists give for committing their terrorist and focus on poverty instead. Either that, or desperately trying to fit things into your view of the world as a struggle between labour and capital.
7 December, 2008 at 10:40 am
“You are an aplogist for terrorism if you seek out the root causes of terrorism and come up with it was the victims fault.”
That’s pissweak. Who blames the commuters of Mumbai for getting mowed down in the train station? Nobody.
But Nic, do you agree that all bombings are acts of terrorism, because they cause terror to the people who are under, or next, to the bombs that detonate? I’ve heard Australian members of WW2’s Bomber Command describe their incendiary attacks on wooden German towns as acts of terrorism. Do you think these old men, who had decades to reflect on their actions, are deluded or wrong?
Even Bush doesn’t call Al Qaeda ‘terrorists’ anymore, or not as often as he used to (“extremist” and “radical” being his preferred describer).
7 December, 2008 at 11:13 am
I forgot, Daryl, thanks for reminding me. People who practice moral equivalence are also apologists for terror. We did it as part of a war of national survival, so we cannot condemn religious nutters who attack innocent civilians. Nice.
7 December, 2008 at 11:53 am
Who said we can’t condemn religious nutters who attack innocent civilians? I see nothing but condemnation, and rightly so. Do you regard Jewish settlers who burn Palestinian homes and shoot Palestinian civilians (on purpose) as terrorists?
“People who practice moral equivalence are also apologists for terror.”
Nice, so the guilt-ridden World War 2 Bomber Command pilots I referred to above are apologists for terror now are they? Is that what you’re really saying there? You have a sick mind if you are.
And also, do you agree or not that bombing civilians causes terror to those who are bombed, and is therefore a form of terrorism?
7 December, 2008 at 12:25 pm
You’re getting dangerously close to “You’re either with us or against us” Nic. Is that your intention?
7 December, 2008 at 3:40 pm
lowest common denominator:
you’re either with us or against us.
you’re an apologist for terrorists if you seek to prevent terrorism.
people who practice moral equivalence are also apologists for terrorists.
or alternatively, simplistic black vs white, or viewing the world through black and white tinted glasses. thank you nic, you’ve demonstrated my point nicely.
7 December, 2008 at 10:04 pm
Confessions : I can predict exactly what you will say about any given issue that appears on this site. You are utterly predictable. This isn’t necessarily a criticism. Make of it what you will. However, for you to claim someone views the world “through black and white tinted glasses” and to slam them on that point is laughable. To paraphrase a famous saying, its like the blinkered criticising the blinkered. A truly wise person would see this.
8 December, 2008 at 6:46 am
“Confessions : I can predict exactly what you will say about any given issue that appears on this site.”
Sure you can.
“Make of it what you will. However, for you to claim someone views the world “through black and white tinted glasses” and to slam them on that point is laughable.”
Yeah right, I make a differentiation between Hamas, Hezbollah and al Qaeda and all of a sudden I’m an apologist for terrorists, just because I’m less ignorant, thus tempting the likes of Nic and Rad to show their true colours – You’re either with us or you’re with the terrorists. (That’s the black and white view of your typical ignorant Boltard.)
Yes, I know I’m not confessions but this whole terrorist apologist shit came about because I can see there is a difference between the groups previously mentioned.
It’s the Boltards who are predictable!
8 December, 2008 at 7:43 am
“Confessions : I can predict exactly what you will say about any given issue that appears on this site.”
says the person who’s only contributions to this thread have been to slag off at me. that’s nothing if not predictable.
8 December, 2008 at 7:54 am
“says the person who’s only contributions to this thread have been to slag off at me. that’s nothing if not predictable.”
If Daics could predict what you were going to write then why didn’t he make that post before you? LOL!
An extra LOL for Daics, just because he’s magic, and just because I know that LOL’s elicit violent responses from Daics… LOL
8 December, 2008 at 9:09 am
While you’re having a go at people for being predictable Daics, how about RadMatt? Will he back Bolt or not? Will he take the kneejerk Right-wing position on any issue or not? Will he call his howlers typos? Will he claim he is being sarcastic when caught out saying something preposterous? We await your judgement.
8 December, 2008 at 9:23 am
“The antonym of a polemic source is an apologia.” from the wikipedia entry for polemic.
This whole apologist speil is just a load of rot and says far more about the world view of a polemic writer. Bolt is a polemic writer.
btw: An apologia is a written promotion of a religious ideal. So the argument of painting terrorism commentators as apologists isn’t so much “You’re with us or you’re against us” but more “You’re with us or you’re promoting terrorism.”
8 December, 2008 at 9:44 am
There are, apparently, only two alternatives. You either make excuses for terrorists, or you believe in violently smashing the crap out of them because they can’t be reasoned with. If you seek to understand the nature of their grievance and do something to address it, you are merely pandering to them and encouraging them to do more of the same. Then when we do get more of the same, the smash the crap brigade blame “the Left” for “sending the wrong signal” when the real blame lies with those who believe it has no fundamental cause other than the evil intentions of its perpetrators.
8 December, 2008 at 11:44 am
What are these root causes? What causes them other than the evil intentions of the perpetrators? Try to come up with a root cause that would cause them to devote 20% of their man-power in hunting down, torturing and killing Jews in a community centre dedicated to helping the Mumbai poor.
8 December, 2008 at 12:58 pm
Nic, they couldve been responding to the IDF and their senseless killing of children in the Gaza strip or any number of things the Israelis do to piss ordinary citizens off on a daily basis. You have to ask yourself WHY they have these evil intentions. They didnt just wake up one day, feeling more evil than they did the day before, and decide to go about on a rampage. Some event or other has contributed to this mindset. Bolt is an obfuscator, wishing to divert attention away from the real possibility that it is something we did that made them want to take revenge on us. Thats why he always attacks John Pilger, to stop you from going away and reading what the man himself has to say on the matter.
8 December, 2008 at 1:15 pm
Here’s one framework for thinking about how we end up at the point where a person would do such a thing (full text available as a PDF here).
Unless you argue that these people were inevitably born evil, then it is worth asking what combination of personal characteristics and environmental factors make a person likely to reach the point where they would commit a terrorist act. It also allows us to look for ways to prevent people from reaching that point (the top of the staircase in Moghaddam’s theory).
8 December, 2008 at 1:42 pm
Dom – the Jewish people who were killed were not Israelis. They were, in fact, against the existence of the modern State of Israel.
You have to ask why a person of Indian or Pakistani descent would even care about the actions of Israel sufficient enough to kill jewish people wherever they could find them. The only cause you can ascribe is extremist religious dogma. Not poverty, no economic opportunities or whatever bug-bear others may try to ascribe.
Tobias – that is useful and very different to ascribing the causes of terror to factors like globalisation, uneven economic development or alleged criminal actions of a government half a continent away.
8 December, 2008 at 1:46 pm
“You have to ask why a person of Indian or Pakistani descent would even care about the actions of Israel sufficient enough to kill jewish people wherever they could find them.’
One would have to wonder why you’re so interested in the Jews? Especially since you’re so blase about the plight of Palestinians. Me, I value life regardless of race/ethnicity/culture.
“. The only cause you can ascribe is extremist religious dogma. Not poverty, no economic opportunities or whatever bug-bear others may try to ascribe.”
In your black and white world maybe. I would contend that poverty is the root cause. Religion, that’s just the badge!
8 December, 2008 at 2:19 pm
“the Jewish people who were killed were not Israelis. ”
So why are they being buried in Israel?
“Requests by Mr Teitelbaum’s family that his coffin should not be covered by the Israeli flag were rejected.”
Good old Israel – sod you’re wishes, the flag is going on the coffin!
8 December, 2008 at 2:32 pm
“One would have to wonder why you’re so interested in the Jews? Especially since you’re so blase about the plight of Palestinians. Me, I value life regardless of race/ethnicity/culture”
Me too, but the topic of this thread is dealing with the attack in Mumbai, which I suspect is why Nic is referring to the Jews who were killed — all 9 of whom were indeed Israelis..
The captured terrorist reportedly said the Jewish boarding house was specifically targetted in response to Israeli actions in Palestine..I, like Nic am not sure what Palestine has to do with Lashkar-e-Toiba either, the only link I can see is the shared religion.
8 December, 2008 at 2:46 pm
Gavin, Rob
The specific concern that I have with the attack on the Jewish centre is two-fold (other than the general concern for all the victims of the attack).
Firstly it shows that the attack was an attack on Western targets (which was one of the points we were discussing earlier).
Secondly, it shows that the attack cannot be explained away in terms of poverty or anything other than religious bigotry. This is reinforced by the reports of torture, which, if true, further confirm that special attention were paid to these victims which can only be explained in religious terms.
These people were not attacked because the terrorists grew up in a poor environment. They were attacked because the terrorists ascribed to certain extremist religious views.
No matter how much certain people on the left want to make this even fit their narrative of poverty, class warfare etc – it is never going to fit.
8 December, 2008 at 2:49 pm
Gavin, when you say “the only link I can see is the shared religion” you seem to be discounting this as a factor. These are people who feel a deep sense of connection with their religion and with the global “brotherhood” of Islam. This is somewhat foreign to the Western mind because it has been at least a century since such religious commitment has been widespread in our culture.
Nevertheless, we all – or most of us – feel a sense of belonging to one group or another, even if it is only the family, and if we sincerely believe an atrocity or violation has been done to that group, we very naturally feel a desire to put that violation to rights. If we have the power to deal with it by using conventional military or policing methods, then we will usually do so. If we don’t have that power, we will take the law into our own hands. That is what powerless human beings have always done, and what they will always do, sooner or later.
Trying to find an answer to terrorism by condemning the response to injustice and ignoring the injustice itself is doomed to fail. This is not just about poverty – it is about violence, it is about oppression, it is about exploitation, it is about centuries of injustice. It is also about religious fundamentalism, intolerance and ignorance, on all sides. It is not a simple matter to find answers, but at the very least we should be looking in the right places.
8 December, 2008 at 2:53 pm
“Secondly, it shows that the attack cannot be explained away in terms of poverty or anything other than religious bigotry.”
So Israel’s attacks on Palestinians is bigotry? It isn’t poverty. I’d wager every IDF soldier and every Zionist politician share the same religion. I’d wager the targets are invariably Muslim.
It’s so easy to pinpoint a single factor such as religion, I just did it. Here goes I’ll do it again. Why did Irish Catholics want to blow up British Protestants? Religion? Nah, poverty.
I think you dismiss the impact of poverty too easily. You so want to blame Islam, rather than the criminal individuals that carried out the crime.
8 December, 2008 at 2:59 pm
RobJ – the IDF contains people from many religious backgrounds, including Christians and Muslims and people of no-religion.
I don’t want to blam Islam – just the extreme and nasty form practiced by the terrorists. The question of why the particular individuals were recruited probably has a lot to do with poverty/mental illness or other causes that would detach a person from society. But that doesn’t explain why the attack occurred or the reasons individual targets were selected.
8 December, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Andy is now asking Hugh J to provide the names of 10 members of the Stolen Generation.
[Andy naturally doesn't spell out his caveat on this: They have to be proved to be removed purely on racial grounds - i.e. if Andy finds that they were living in anything less than 1st world conditions he merely adjudges that they were removed in their best interests...]
The War on Australia continues…
8 December, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Why do honourable people continue to deal with Bolt? Why not just let him disappear into the margins of society where he belongs? He has a congenital incapacity for empathy, and we should stop trying to cure him of it.
8 December, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Hello Bob,
I was thinking along the lines of why LeT would care about Israel/Palestine, but, as Rob says above it no doubt is a case of them identifying with fellow Muslims who they see as being oppressed.
It’s a bitter irony that the Israelis they killed were in Mumbai helping the poor of the city.
8 December, 2008 at 4:14 pm
“Root causes” in any discussion of terrorism seems to inevitably result in accusations of apologetics for, or support of, terrorism.
It’s quite incomphrehensible really.
I think that we can all agree that we don’t want innocent civilians to die. Yet, the critique of “root causes” seems to completely ignore that this discussion has as its goal the prevention of terrorism. And I don’t mean the kind of knee-jerk prevention much in vogue amongst those same critics, which is hunting down the terrorists and shooting them before they shot us.
The best kind of prevention is the one that reduces the number of people who would want to terrorise anyone else.
And this is what the “root causes” approach addresses. Identify the points of leverage for extremist recruitment and remove them. Now I agree that poverty is not a cause of terrorism in the direct sense, but it is one in a generic sense. Groups can use poverty as a recruitment tool. Indonesia provides a good example. Some Islmaic groups have stepped into the void left by the state to provide their own schools. For those with no access to govt schools and no means to access private education, free Islamic schools are a saviour. And this is an opening they can use to establish their credentials and later, recruit supporters.
Unresolved injustices can be manipulated in the same way. Lashkar e-tayyiba started as a group fighting for the liberation of Kashmir. And by all accounts, was unusual in that it eschewed all attacks on civilians. It’s changed a good deal since then, but no doubt it continues to use the widespread dissatisfaction with the situation in Kashmir to recruit adherents. Palestine is the same. An unresolved conflict serving as a highly effective motivational tool.
Remove these grievances and leverage points and the extremists groups become much smaller with a far smaller base of support in their community/region. And these groups are much like a guerilla insurgency – they need a degree of local support to be effective. The attacks in Mumbai would have been much more difficult to co-ordinate without a base of support/sympathisers in India.
At this point, someone usualy pipes up and says that we shouldn’t give in to threats, or ‘negotiate with terrorists’. Red herring. The issue is that we do what we know is right and needs to be done – and that is resolving conflicts that have seriously negative human consequences. We don’t refuse to do the right thing because people we don’t like want us to do those things. The added benefit is that those same people we dislike, suddenly find themselves increasingly irrelevant, isolated and impotent.
8 December, 2008 at 4:21 pm
“No matter how much certain people on the left want to make this even fit their narrative of poverty, class warfare etc – it is never going to fit.” – Nic
The award for biggest straw-man of this thread goes to Nic for the leftist “class-warfare” invention.
Congrats!
8 December, 2008 at 4:40 pm
Michael – I wasn’t attempting to create a straw man. Class and poverty go hand in hand.
8 December, 2008 at 7:33 pm
“He has a congenital incapacity for empathy” – BadBob.
from the comments thread of the hugh jacknam name 10 post DeanL was refering:
“John of Vic replied to Dave from Perth
Mon 08 Dec 08 (01:47pm)
More than astonishing Dave, it’s tragic. Jackman has just walked over the graves of everyone who ever tried to help the Aborigines survive as a race. The clash of cultures decimated the Aborigines and the only way to save them was for the whites to step in. They did and they did their best. I am only glad most of them are not around to hear their reputations and good names trashed by film producers and movie stars.”
never mind that aboriginals were racially vilified, raped, murdered, subject to barbaric scientific experiments, subject to racist laws and had their children stolen. what really count are the oppressors who tried to help them. this post would be funny if it wasn’t for these facts. actually vilification of aboriginals can still be found on any of andy’s posts about them. if only andy’s sheep would stop trying to be victims all the time…
strangely there is a sameness in lack of empathy of thinking of aboriginals that there is by nic and rad of palestinians. palestinians have only themselves to blame. israel tried to help them but because they leftist, terrorist, chardonnay sipping, socialist, latte lovers palestinians can’t turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other. right rad?
“Why do honourable people continue to deal with Bolt?”
i don’t know except that most honourable people don’t deal with bolt.
but have a look at todays hugh jackman thread to see evidence of honourable people trying to reason with the rightards about stolen aboriginals to no avail, all they do is increase the comments. andy chimes in to abuse certain commenters, increasing comments even more but by in large it’s a giant rightard fuckfest.
8 December, 2008 at 9:23 pm
some background reading for Nic & Rad about the taliban, US foreing policy and the US arming and funding extremism:
http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2008/12/by-eric-martin.html
9 December, 2008 at 1:11 am
OT, but since there are no open threads here…
‘Australia’ is clearly an Evil Pagan Lefty conspiracy to make white Australia of the 1930s and 1940s look more Nasty & Evil than they eugenically were. Any sensible, clear-minded BoltBot can see that.
So who majority-funded the making of this country’s most expensive film ever, which is apparently filled with so many gregarious lies that Americans won’t come here for their holidays? Who’s the main man okaying the spending of more than $140 million to see this film through to completion?
Oh, right.
Since James Cameron went hugely over-budget with Titanic, Rupert Murdoch keeps tabs on any Fox films that are budgeted beyond (last time I heard) $80 or so million. He is directly involved when a director comes looking for another $10 or $20 million beyond the original budget, like Cameron did. If Titanic had bombed instead of boomed, Murdoch would have been cleaned out. He keeps a close eye on the mega-spending of his film divisions, and rightly so.
So Murdoch himself knew exactly what was going to be included in ‘Australia’, including the Stolen Generations plot-line that so mortifies The Professional Idiot. Do you think TPI would ever dare take it up with his boss? HA!
After all, if Murdoch didn’t sign off on the original ‘Australia’ budget, and the reshoots/additionals, the movie would likely never have been made, let alone released.
In all the righteous fury of the BoltBots, few if any have (been allowed) pointed out this blindingly obvious fact. Murdoch funded ‘Australia’, and got back a fair chunk of his investment through tax rebates, before the movie even hit cinema screens. TPI’s boss is turning a profit off the ‘Stolen Generations Propaganda’ that so outrages Boltbots, and these profits in turn ensure that The Professional Idiot remains Australia’s highest paid blogger (for now).
Fantastic!
9 December, 2008 at 8:19 am
Confessions, I’ve been very civil with you. There is no need to degenerate into that level of abuse or Rad and myself in your comment. If you had a valid point, perhaps you would not need to express yourself in such a way.
9 December, 2008 at 8:23 am
Nice irony Darryl.
9 December, 2008 at 8:26 am
Nic, I think that comment was directed more at RadMatt. He deserves all he gets. He makes no effort whatsoever to be civil, honest or sensible. The only thing he adds to this blog is unintended humour. Which is no small thing, I should add.
9 December, 2008 at 8:38 am
strangely there is a sameness in lack of empathy of thinking of aboriginals that there is by nic and rad of palestinians. palestinians have only themselves to blame. israel tried to help them but because they leftist, terrorist, chardonnay sipping, socialist, latte lovers palestinians can’t turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other. right rad
You really are a piece of work Confessions. You are so ideologically self-righteous that you put the religious right to shame.
I have never said the Palestinians have only themselves to blame. I have said that the Palestine have Hamas to blame. The Palestinians are the victims of Hamas who continue to rage their pathological genocide against Israel. They are only interested in the complete annihilation of Israel.
Until Hamas can learn to live in peace with Israel, the Palestinian people will suffer and they will be prevented from any chance of prosperity in the future.
Confessions do you support Hama’s policy of total annihilation of Israel via a campaign of suicide bombers? Do you think that it is OK for Hamas to exploit children to use them as suicide bombers in their campaign to annihilate Israel?
9 December, 2008 at 8:44 am
Nic: if anyone has been abusive it is you by calling others apologists for terrorists. given robj has shown how much you seem to base your knowledge of the israel-palestine conflict on the kind of facile, simplistic information delivered through blair/bolt, i’m not surprised to see your final tactic seems to be resorting to the “your being abusive” game. i know this tactic is beneath you and so just this time i’ll pretend i haven’t seen your comment.
9 December, 2008 at 8:53 am
Could you tell me your poor ?….. yet we speak to each other from opposite sides of the World.
9 December, 2008 at 8:54 am
“I have never said the Palestinians have only themselves to blame.”
yet you are quite happy with this recent comment of yours:
“They [the palestinians] have every opportunity to turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other”
in other words, they have only themselves to blame for their current dispair.
9 December, 2008 at 8:54 am
i’m not surprised to see your final tactic seems to be resorting to the “your being abusive” game
In the same breath you say this.
Nic: if anyone has been abusive it is you by calling others apologists for terrorists.
LMAO _ Do you even read what you post confessions.
9 December, 2008 at 8:56 am
“by calling others apologists for terrorists.”
And I’m an anti Semite according to Nic. He wont say it but he did say that anyone who dares make comparisons between Zionists and the Nazis is an anti Semite.
I’ve made such comparisons but deny that I’m an anti Semite.
It’s typical Boltard stuff, smear the opposition because the facts don’t support their argument.
9 December, 2008 at 8:57 am
“They [the palestinians] have every opportunity to turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other”
in other words, they have only themselves to blame for their current dispair
Nice try confessions but you are wrong.
Next time you need to stop being deceptive.
9 December, 2008 at 8:59 am
Confessions do you support Hama’s policy of total annihilation of Israel via a campaign of suicide bombers? Do you think that it is OK for Hamas to exploit children to use them as suicide bombers in their campaign to annihilate Israel?
Idiotic Strawman Questions (ISQs) were uniquely MM’s stock-in-trade. And RadP still denies he’s MightyMatt!
Why are you such a lying prat, Mighty Matt.
9 December, 2008 at 9:00 am
Rad,
Go away, grown ups are arguing, grown ups who actually have a clue unlike yourself who said:
“They [the palestinians] have every opportunity to turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other”
LOL – I cannot believe somebody who is so ignorant participates in such threads. You have no shame.
9 December, 2008 at 9:05 am
Idiotic Strawman Questions (ISQs) were uniquely MM’s stock-in-trade. And RadP still denies he’s MightyMatt!
Why are you such a lying prat, Mighty Matt.
LMAO
So DeaniaL is your mythical Matt the only person in history to ask such a question?
You are really getting desperate now DeaniaL. What next? OMG I used a full stop in my sentence! DeaniaL thinks that I must be his mythical Matt.
So is Matt the name of an exlover that kicked you to the curb when he was done with you?
9 December, 2008 at 9:06 am
Confessions, I doubt I would use a tactic as misspelled as “your being abusive”.
RobJ – we thrashed out issue of comparisons between israel and nazis on a different thread. I thought it was clear that we came to the conclusion that the particular comparisons you were making were insensitive in the extreme, but not anti-semitic.
9 December, 2008 at 9:07 am
Ha Ha ,I still believe I live In a Democracy……………………………………..
9 December, 2008 at 9:08 am
RobJ: i think Nic is female. i don’t know why i think this, just have a hunch.
“Idiotic Strawman Questions (ISQs) were uniquely MM’s stock-in-trade”
Rad’s stupid question was akin to the same black and white, good vs evil, with us or against us shit that has been so discredited on this thread.
9 December, 2008 at 9:11 am
“The Palestinians are the victims of Hamas who continue to rage their pathological genocide against Israel. They are only interested in the complete annihilation of Israel. ” – ‘lil Pip
I do see some rage and pathology here, but it’s not where ‘lil Pip suggests.
9 December, 2008 at 9:13 am
Dean (and others), whether or not Rad is Matt is hardly relevant, is it? Rad and Matt are not posting on the same thread – so there is no sockpuppetry involved.
Either:
(a) Rad is Matt – in which case your point has been well made, but you are never going to be able to prove it and Rad is never going to admit it, so you might as well let it go; or
(b) Rad is not Matt – in which case, you might as well let it go.
Let Rad call himself whatever he likes and debate the topic, not the person. I’m sure that if you stop raising the Matt issue, Rad will stop calling you Deanial.
9 December, 2008 at 9:13 am
You concluded that, you would, you’re a Zionist. I still maintain that the wanton destruction of civillian sewerage infrastructure is collective punishment The forced removal of people from their land is akin to the behavior of the Nazis.
“insensitive in the extreme,”
Only because you place little value on the lives of impoverished Palestinians. You’re insensitive in the extreme if you excuse the IDF for what they did in Jenin!
BTW Nic, see those disgusting redneck settlers misbehaving the other day? They got kicked out (because they were breaking the law) then they went off and beat the shit out of the local Palestinians. Why does the Zionist state of Isreal tolerate the breaches of the settler shit stirrers?
Why don’t they just shoot or bomb the settlers, they wouldn’t think twice to shoot if they were Palestinians.
Also Nic, did you condemn the IDF for littering their neighbor with cluster munitions recently?
9 December, 2008 at 9:21 am
Confessions, I’ve said a number of times – I’m a man. I’m not sure why this comes up so often.
9 December, 2008 at 9:24 am
Rad’s stupid question was akin to the same black and white, good vs evil, with us or against us shit that has been so discredited on this thread
– Confessions
No confessions. I am trying to determine what your opinion is of the methods of hamas. You are quick to jump to the defence of the Palestinians when anyone criticises the actions of Hamas or other Palestinian organisations. Given that Hamas’ tactics have such a major impact in the political landscape of the region, I am curious to know how you feel about Hamas’ own tactics. Especially given that you are so quick to throw around the racist tag. Hamas is an organisation that is racist to the core, given that they want total annihilation of Israel and it’s people.
Let Rad call himself whatever he likes and debate the topic, not the person. I’m sure that if you stop raising the Matt issue, Rad will stop calling you Deanial.
– Nic
I have suspected all along nic that Might matt is a tactic that people like DeanL use when they cannot win the debate. It is a sloppy way for them to close down debate.
You are correct that I will continue to use the name DeaniaL for DeanL as long as he calls me Matt.
9 December, 2008 at 9:25 am
Opps………………. wrong page.
9 December, 2008 at 9:25 am
oh sorry Nic! (blush)
as i said i don’t know why i thought you were female.
9 December, 2008 at 9:26 am
RobJ – I didn’t see the abuse of Palestinians, but I did see the State of Israel evicting the settlers at gunpoint from the building they were occupying. Considering that they claim to have a valid legal title to the place (a matter which is before the Courts and of which I know nothing more than the claim), I don’t see that as Israel tolerating their behaviour. Do you?
9 December, 2008 at 9:28 am
Confessions – no problem. I had to make the same statement a couple times now on earlier threads (I’m not expecting you to have read them in full – seeing as there are maybe 300 comments a week here). I don’t know why I come across as female. Not that there is anything wrong with that, of course.
9 December, 2008 at 9:29 am
“You are quick to jump to the defence of the Palestinians when anyone criticises the actions of Hamas or other Palestinian organisations. ”
more lies. when Rad? when have i made such statements? this isn’t the first time you’ve attribute comments to me that i haven’t made is it?
9 December, 2008 at 9:33 am
“(a matter which is before the Courts and of which I know nothing more than the claim”
The courts said they don’t.
“don’t see that as Israel tolerating their behaviour. Do you?”
As long as they let Settlers build more or even live in the occupied territories they are supporting the Settlers. Have they bulldozed all the illegal settlements yet? (didn’t think so)
Now Nic, had Palestinians been occupying the house what would have happened? Bulldozer anybody (armoured bulldozer) Missile? Bomb or just bullets.
“I didn’t see the abuse of Palestinians,”
You never do, even when it occurs you deny it. (like the collective punishment in Jenin)
“I don’t see that as Israel tolerating their behaviour. Do you?”
Israel doesn’t blink when it’s a Muslim – Dead! Why didn’t they kill the settlers, that’s their usual MO.
9 December, 2008 at 9:35 am
You are correct that I will continue to use the name DeaniaL for DeanL as long as he calls me Matt.
I’m devastated! What an outrageously clever misuse of my name.
9 December, 2008 at 9:37 am
RadP is a proven liar. The filth deserves no respect and will get none from me.
9 December, 2008 at 9:40 am
more lies. when Rad? when have i made such statements? this isn’t the first time you’ve attribute comments to me that i haven’t made is it?
You mean like this;
“They [the palestinians] have every opportunity to turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other”
in other words, they have only themselves to blame for their current dispair.
I have clearly stated throughout this thread that I am referring to the actions of Hamas and how this impacts the Palestinians.
Your tactics are childish and are getting really old. You will never win a debate by always calling your opponents liars. Get over yourself confessions.
9 December, 2008 at 9:43 am
RadP is a proven liar. The filth deserves no respect and will get none from me.
LMAO – This coming from the person who keeps calling me after his Mythical Matt. I think that you need to have a really long look in the mirror.
9 December, 2008 at 9:44 am
ummm rad, you claim i defend palestine whenever anyone criticises hamas. i challenge you to back this up with actual statements i’ve made to this effect and the only reply you can muster is to quote one of YOUR OWN statements. lol!!
9 December, 2008 at 9:50 am
I shall scatter your people amongst the land, then I shall gather them. Then I shall divide Zion in two. You cant argue with the Big Guy In the Sky.
9 December, 2008 at 10:01 am
“RobJ – I didn’t see the abuse of Palestinians, but I did see the State of Israel evicting the settlers at gunpoint from the building they were occupying. ” – Nic
That’s selective attention for you.
“Considering that they claim to have a valid legal title to the place (a matter which is before the Courts and of which I know nothing more than the claim), I don’t see that as Israel tolerating their behaviour. Do you? -Nic
The Courts decided that they didn’t, hence the eviction. The question is, is this an eviction like the many evictions of the settlement outposts – they just go back the next day.
And there is no doubt that Israel has been very tolerant of the settlers behaviour. Actions that would see a Palestinian arrested and thrown in the back of an IDF jeep (or shot) before they could blink, the settlers carry on with for days.
9 December, 2008 at 10:05 am
RadMatt, Matt is only a myth in the Joseph Campbell sense, i.e. “a sacred story involving symbols that are usually capable of multiple meanings”. I will not have you desecrating him. Please desist before you incur my wrath.
9 December, 2008 at 10:10 am
“I have clearly stated throughout this thread that I am referring to the actions of Hamas and how this impacts the Palestinians.”
Which country were you talking about idiot?
“The Courts decided that they didn’t,”
Yesterday Nic claimed the Israeli victims in Mumbai were not Israeli’s.
Today Nic reckons that Settlers had a valid legal title.
Then Nic reckons we concluded that it was insensitive in the extreme to equate the actions of the Zionist IDF with the Nazis.
I have to wonder about Nic’s honesty. That’s a lot of mistakes. One would have thought that one would have a clue before entering a debate.
Oh, and there’s the ‘you’re either with us or with the terrorists’ bullshit meme.
9 December, 2008 at 10:14 am
“Your tactics are childish and are getting really old.”
You would say that wouldn’t you, after all you did write:
“They [the palestinians] have every opportunity to turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other”
Which is possibly the stupidest and most ignorant wingnut comment made outside of Bolt’s blog.
9 December, 2008 at 10:25 am
Which is possibly the stupidest and most ignorant wingnut comment made outside of Bolt’s blog
Of course you would say that rob as you give off the stench of ideological bias when you make comparisons between Nazi Germany and Israel and you start to throw around the Zionist tag.
You are to blinded by ideology to see that Hamas’ racist, pathological hatred of Israel is destroying any chances of future prosperity for the Palestinian people. What hope do the people of Palestine have, when Hamas are exploiting Palestinian children and people for the purpose a suicide bombing campaign.
9 December, 2008 at 10:31 am
“You are to blinded by ideology ”
Errr you’re the one who wrote:
“They [the palestinians] have every opportunity to turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other”
You’re the one who’s blinded by your ideology, why else would you make such a crass, ignorant statement?
BTW – In that sentence which country are you referring to?
9 December, 2008 at 10:36 am
You’re the one who’s blinded by your ideology, why else would you make such a crass, ignorant statement?
It does not surprise me that you find the statement crass. Especially given that you incorrectly use the term Zionist when referring to the policies of the Israeli government.
9 December, 2008 at 10:37 am
“Yesterday Nic claimed the Israeli victims in Mumbai were not Israeli’s” (nb no apostrophe is needed).
At least one was only a US citizen – not an Israeli citizen. Look at The Age article on his burial (I won’t post links because it will hold the comment up.
“Today Nic reckons that Settlers had a valid legal title.”
I never said that. I said “Considering that they claim to have a valid legal title to the place (a matter which is before the Courts and of which I know nothing more than the claim)”.
That is true – they do claim to have a valid legal title. That issue has not been resolved yet. The eviction was consequent upon an interim order that did not settle the issue in dispute. We have similar principles in Australian law.
I note also that according to the BBC “outgoing Israeli PM Ehud Olmert has compared the violence used by Jewish settlers against Palestinians in Hebron to bygone anti-Semitism in Europe.”
That does not look like tolerance to me.
“I have to wonder about Nic’s honesty. That’s a lot of mistakes. One would have thought that one would have a clue before entering a debate.”
Do the words glasshouse and stones mean anything to you?
9 December, 2008 at 10:40 am
“You are to blinded by ideology”
says he who reckon sarah palin would make a good president.
9 December, 2008 at 10:54 am
“says he who reckon sarah palin would make a good president.”
LOL
“That is true – they do claim to have a valid legal title. That issue has not been resolved yet. ”
It has – IDF 1 – Stupis redneck Settlers 0 (yeeehah, for once I’m siding with the IDF)
A good score.
” “outgoing Israeli PM Ehud Olmert has compared the violence used by Jewish settlers against Palestinians in Hebron to bygone anti-Semitism in Europe.”
That does not look like tolerance to me.”
Err you’re full of shit – they would have been shot if they were Palestinians but let’s face it, you’re a hard core Zionist, one who completely overlooks Israel and the IDF’s treatment of Palestinians.
Do the words glasshouse and stones mean anything to you?
More examples of your dishonesty?
Your ridiculous pedantic claim that I am unable to spell the word ‘gets’
Your earlier tag team trolling session with Abu Chowder, specifically your mock outrage over the ‘foul’ language being used in the thread (LOL – That was funny, you really did make a goose of yourself)
Your insistence that I hate (your word, you know, another word you tried to put in my mouth) stupid people merely because I have the ability to recognise shit media for what it is…
Your general attempts to misrepresent what I’ve written in plain English.
9 December, 2008 at 11:06 am
Oh yeah then there’s the part of the news story that you conveniently missed, the settlers going on a rampage, beating the shit out of the local Palestinians. Typical cowardly, bullying behavior, the IDF give the settlers a hiding, they go and look for someone weaker to take it out on…
Nic, why won’t the IDF forcibly remove all settlers from the occupied territories?
9 December, 2008 at 11:07 am
Err you’re full of shit – they would have been shot if they were Palestinians but let’s face it, you’re a hard core Zionist, one who completely overlooks Israel and the IDF’s treatment of Palestinians.
OMG. What is that stench?
Oh I see! It’s the stench of ideologically bias propaganda.
Rob, are you seeing those evil Zionists under every bed again? Oh you poor petal.
9 December, 2008 at 11:08 am
Rad, are you cool with collective punishment?
9 December, 2008 at 11:09 am
Oh yeah then there’s the part of the news story that you conveniently missed, the settlers going on a rampage, beating the shit out of the local Palestinians.
Well they could strapped a suicide vest onto a 12 yo and send them into a crowded café. Oh wait, that option has already been taken.
9 December, 2008 at 11:10 am
in the confusing world of bolt logic today andy blames the riots in greece on…..yep, teh left.
serious wingnut.
9 December, 2008 at 11:10 am
Rad, are you cool with collective punishment?
Rob are you cool with child exploitation used to turn kids into suicide bombers?
9 December, 2008 at 11:12 am
It’s all getting a bit heated here people. Let’s pause for a little chuckle at RadMatt’s latest offering:
“Oh I see! It’s the stench of ideologically bias propaganda.”
RadMatt, you forgot last week’s parsing lesson. “Bias” is a noun and as such, cannot be used to describe the noun “propaganda”. I don’t wish to be pedantic, but I have told you once. The word you’re looking for is “biased”. And you’re wrong. It is not ideologically biased to refer to Israel as a Zionist state. It’s merely a statement of the obvious.
9 December, 2008 at 11:15 am
Oh Badbod, you really do need to get out more.
9 December, 2008 at 11:16 am
BadBob,
Rad will just say he is being sarcastic in his use of the word bias.
9 December, 2008 at 11:16 am
“Rob are you cool with child exploitation used to turn kids into suicide bombers?”
Nope, I value human life regardless of religion, culture or ethnicity (unlike you who thinks the Palestinians deserve what they get from Israel, eg collective punishment!)
I realise that you can’t differentiate between al Qaeda, Hamas and Hezbolla, but that would be because you’re a wingnut idiot.
Was al Qaeda elected? Nope
Was Hamas – Yep
Hezbollah – Yep
Do al Qaeda have social services? Nope
Do Hamas – Yep
Hezbollah? yep.
See, your problem is that you see everything in simple black and white terms, and you subscribe to the ‘you’re with us, or you’re with the terrorists’ moronic meme. Why else would you write something as cretinous as this:
“They [the palestinians] have every opportunity to turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other”
(apart from the fact that you’re an idiot? LOL)
9 December, 2008 at 11:17 am
“It’s all getting a bit heated here people”
Just the way Ilike it when I’m showing up wingnuts.
9 December, 2008 at 11:17 am
Nope, I value human life regardless of religion, culture or ethnicity (unlike you who thinks the Palestinians deserve what they get from Israel, eg collective punishment!)
Rob, you are lying. Please provide proof of where I have said that.
9 December, 2008 at 11:23 am
Well your refusal to acknowledge that the IDF carried out collective punishment in Jenin for a kick off. You’re the fucking liar Rad, thing is you’re a stupid liar, you do realise we can all read exactly what you’ve written (and I have for example)
We’ve all noticed your lies about sarcasm etc.
9 December, 2008 at 11:24 am
BadBob – I think Rad is referring to RobJ calling me a Zionist a couple of times.
Confessions, I thought that elements of the left wing/anarchist were rioting and were open about it? The BBC are reporting that they were substantial elements of the protests.
RobJ – we both need to back down a bit. You called me dishonest and I pointed out that it was you in fact who was misquoting me and I was correct on a number of the points. Let’s leave it at that.
9 December, 2008 at 11:24 am
RadMatt, your insensitivity to my plight matches your insensitivity to the plight of the Palestinians. You are a a cruel boy.
9 December, 2008 at 11:27 am
OK RobJ – you need a warning. Your last comment @11:23 is unacceptable. Any more insults like “zionist”(*) or labelling people liars, or swearing will mean that I won’t engage you in conversation anymore.
(*) not that it should be an insult, but you are certainly using it as such.
9 December, 2008 at 11:29 am
“in the confusing world of bolt logic today andy blames the riots in greece on…..yep, teh left.”
LOL
“serious wingnut.”
Nah, just knows that heaps of his fans are serious wingnuts, hence he can tell them anything, ANYTHING and they’ll swallow it like the loyal, stupid bigots they are.
He’s a nasty piece of work but I don’t think that even he believes half the bullshit he writes.
(Rad, gonna make any thinly veiled, ridiculous legal threats again, cos I’m having a pop at your hero??)
9 December, 2008 at 11:30 am
Thanks Nic, but RadMatt doesn’t know what Zionist means, which is why he’s so keen to get Rob to define it for him.
Your point about Leftist organisations participating in violence in Greece really doesn’t add much to our understanding of what’s going on over there. That’s the problem with Bolt’s approach. He’s not interested in understanding an issue, only in pinning blame for it on “the Left”. You, on the other hand, can sometimes do better.
9 December, 2008 at 11:34 am
More heat than light Rob. Ease up on the personal stuff, please. RadMatt was placed on this earth to be laughed at, not to be abused.
9 December, 2008 at 11:35 am
“Any more insults like “zionist””
Oh, so you’re anti zionist now?
**I see the atserisk – LOL. Are settlers Zionists? Because they’re pigs, cowards and bullies!
“or labelling people liars, or swearing will mean that I won’t engage you in conversation anymore.”
No skin off my nose, I reckon you’re just having a bit of trouble rebutting my posts. Maybe you’re embarrassed by my highlighting of your previous behavior? Especially your tag team trolling effort with Abu Chowder. (your pedantry and general dishonesty)
Like I say, please yourFUCKINGself, why on earth would I worry what somebody who disregards the removal of civilian infrastructure (the sewers in Jenin) thinks of me?
I dislike bigots and wingnuts but deny that I ‘hate’ people merely because they’re stupid (another one of your LIES)
9 December, 2008 at 11:36 am
“. Ease up on the personal stuff, please.”
Fuck ‘em. They’re bigots!
9 December, 2008 at 11:41 am
“Confessions, I thought that elements of the left wing/anarchist were rioting and were open about it? ”
andy does his typical rightwing knee jerk reaction with this:
“The Left burns Athens: The Left and the anarchists of Greece show their customary love of peace and the respect for the rights of others.”
according to Reuters longterm residents of exarchia are shocked at the violence, but it doesn’t stop andy using their grief to bash the left. in andy’s world anarchists from a leftist area in greece start riots therefore all leftists in greece are violence-loving thugs.
9 December, 2008 at 11:41 am
Nic’s not, not really. And RadMatt’s just dumb.
9 December, 2008 at 11:41 am
BadBob – I’m not really sure what we can understand about the Greek riotings. It seems pretty “unclearcut” to me.
Youth killed by police after a mob confronted a police car (why the mob was there in first place, I can’t find out). This sparks riots across Greece, partly by “youths” (again, the nature of the youths are not described – what are the links between them – surely it can’t just be their age, are they linked by class, race, education or poverty), partly by left-leaning university students and anarchists.
The riots take the form of looting of shops, destruction of public property and other events. I notice some of the shops that are looted are owned by foreigners. Again, I don’t know what any of that means.
I think, though, that it is beyond a doubt that left-leaning students and anarchists are involved in the rioting. Why and for what purpose (other than a general anarchy), I’m not sure.
I’ve pieced together this narrative from various sources, mostly the BBC, Times etc.
9 December, 2008 at 11:44 am
Andy’s quite fond of a bit of violence himself. Witness the way he elbowed his way into the ABC 774 studio when he imagined he’d been slighted by Stephen Mayne.
9 December, 2008 at 11:46 am
The fact that Left-leaning people are involved in something doesn’t mean that there’s not a core of validity to the grievance which sparked it off. That’s what we should be looking for.
9 December, 2008 at 11:46 am
Nic: there is a history of anti authoritarianism in Exarchia going back to the 60s and 70s. when i wrote my post at 11:41 i just assumed you knew this.
i reject the notion that the rioters can be uniformly categorised as ‘the left’ as andy has done. as your post above shows, the issue and the motivations are not clear cut. this is just bolt on mumbai all over again.
9 December, 2008 at 11:46 am
One point RobJ – calling jewish people “pigs” is pretty offensive. Just like calling muslim person that. Both religions consider the pig to be unclean.
I’m sure you didn’t just deliberately pick a word to describe jewish people that would be only marginally less offensive than the word “nazi”.
9 December, 2008 at 11:47 am
“Nic’s not, not really. And RadMatt’s just dumb.”
Hey BadBob, what’s with you’re sticking up for Nic, not that it bothers me, Nic is clearly more intelligent and eloquent than Rad but the stuff I listed above is real, Nic is a pedant, Nic does put words in others mouth (That I hate people who are stupid eg) Nic does have a history of trolling (with Abu Chowder as it happens)
Bigot? Yeah maybe I was lashing out, it would be hard for me to prove.
9 December, 2008 at 11:49 am
BadBob – there clearly is a core to their grievance. That’s being investigated and the police involved have almost immediately been charged.
I don’t understand what burning down Christmas trees and looting shops have to do with their grievance though. What somebody think of the Christmas trees?
9 December, 2008 at 11:51 am
Neither do I Nic, but I’m not there, and I’m not about to presume to condemn them from this distance.
9 December, 2008 at 11:52 am
“One point RobJ – calling jewish people “pigs” is pretty offensive. Just like calling muslim person that. Both religions consider the pig to be unclean.”
Not being a religious person that’s lost on me, pig is a generic insult, you know this, more mock outrage?
OBL is a PIG, Mullah Omar is a PIG!! There you go that evens things up.
Actually Pigs are intelligent clean animals, i think I’m insulting pigs with thje OBl, Omar reference LOL.
I have to confess I don’t have much time for people who subscribe to religions. I can’t get my head around why so many people believe in fairy stories.
9 December, 2008 at 11:54 am
Thanks Nic, but RadMatt doesn’t know what Zionist means, which is why he’s so keen to get Rob to define it for him
You wish Badbod. But the truth is that Rob doesn’t know what a Zionist is. If he did, then he would not refer to the Israeli Government and their policies as Zionist policies.
And just to prove my point Rob comes out with a whopper like this;
Oh, so you’re anti zionist now?
9 December, 2008 at 11:56 am
Rob, Nic is sincere and generally courteous and respectful of those he disagrees with. I disagree with about 80% of what he writes but I recognise the value of having someone on this blog who practises those virtues while putting forward a point of view different from the majority of posters here.
RadMatt is dumb, but has entertainment value if used the right way.
Neither is a bigot.
9 December, 2008 at 11:57 am
BadBob – I’m pretty clear on condemning them. No matter what grievances they might have – looting and destruction of public and private property tends to overshadow them.
In fact, from this distance, it seems pretty lucky that no-one has been killed in the fires yet. From the pictures, some of the burnt-out shops look like they have residences above them.
9 December, 2008 at 11:57 am
“If he did, then he would not refer to the Israeli Government and their policies as Zionist policies. ”
Did they withdraw from the occupied territories? If they weren’t Zionist then they would. Did they remove all the illegal settlers. Oh that’s right in Rad’s world only Muslims have to obey the UNSC, Israel are exempt.
“And just to prove my point Rob comes out with a whopper like this;
Oh, so you’re anti zionist now?”
I see you chose not to post in context, more dishonesty.. (regardless of the fact that we can all see that statement in it’s original context)
“Rob doesn’t know what a Zionist is”
Says the guy who doesn’t even know what ‘country’ means. LOL
9 December, 2008 at 11:58 am
RadMatt, just refresh my memory – what’s a Zionist again?You may phone a friend.
9 December, 2008 at 11:59 am
BadBob – “but I recognise the value of having someone on this blog who practises those virtues while putting forward a point of view different from the majority of posters here”.
Thanks, FWIW – I think you and others here add a lot to my understanding of the matters raised here.
9 December, 2008 at 12:00 pm
“Nic is sincere ”
I disagree, Nic is disingenuous at best, dishonest, maybe… (that’s my experience, I’ve cited plenty of examples)
We’ll have to agree to disagree, I only have so much energy..
9 December, 2008 at 12:01 pm
BadBob,
Rad’ll just go and paste something from the web, like he did the other day, just added his own four words to the beginning of a plagiarised paragraph.
9 December, 2008 at 12:17 pm
Yeah I know Rob, but I just want to see him do it.
9 December, 2008 at 12:18 pm
RadMatt, just refresh my memory – what’s a Zionist again?You may phone a friend
Zionism is a global group that is based on religious tradition which supports the concept of a homeland for Jewish people. It is wrong to say that the Israeli government are Zionist and that their policies are Zionist policies. Even though Zionist support the state of Israel there are also a lot of other international groups and organisations that equally support the state of Israel.
9 December, 2008 at 12:25 pm
The idea of a Jewish state, RadMatt – i.e. a state set aside for the adherents of a particular religion, and those who do not practise the religion but are descended from Jewish ancestors – is a Zionist idea. There are many people who support this Zionist idea who have no connection to the Jewish people or religion. But it is still a Zionist idea, by definition. It is not a term of abuse, nor does it denote a particular orientation within the spectrum of Israeli politics. It is just a fact.
9 December, 2008 at 12:32 pm
But it is still a Zionist idea, by definition. It is not a term of abuse, nor does it denote a particular orientation within the spectrum of Israeli politics. It is just a fact.
When using the term in relation to describing the Israeli government and their policies, gives off the stench of ideological bias. The Israeli government is independent of the Zionist movement. Sure the Zionist movement heavily supports the state of Israel and some in the government may be Zionist but the government of Israel and their policies are determined by the Israeli people who democratically elect their government.
It is similar to Christians like Rudd or even Howard within the Australian Government. We do not describe the policies of the Australian government as Christian policies. Even though Christianity supports democratic western nations like Australia, the USA… etc.
9 December, 2008 at 12:35 pm
Rad why are you talking about zionism as being akin to christianism?
9 December, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Rad why are you talking about zionism as being akin to christianism?
I am not. I am comparing the relationship of government with political/religious movements.
9 December, 2008 at 12:40 pm
“It is similar to Christians like Rudd or even Howard within the Australian Government.”
No it isn’t RadMatt. There’s a very, very clear distinction. If you are Jewish, you are automatically entitled to live in Israel. If you’re not Jewish, you can’t move there to live. If you are Christian, you are not automatically entitled to live in Australia (or any other country for that matter). If you’re not Christian, you may be entitled to move here.
The Jewish state is, as far as I’m aware, unique in the world in that respect. That unique quality is what makes it Zionist. You might not like the smell of the word, but it means what it means.
9 December, 2008 at 12:46 pm
The Jewish state is, as far as I’m aware, unique in the world in that respect. That unique quality is what makes it Zionist. You might not like the smell of the word, but it means what it means.
If you are not Jewish you can live in Israel. Also Israel does not demand that all it’s citizens convert to Judaism.
The main emphasis is on the Israeli government being democratically elected by the people. So, even though it is unlikely, it is possible for anti-Zionist political party to win government. That’s why the Government of Israel is not a Zionist.
9 December, 2008 at 12:48 pm
“If you are not Jewish you can live in Israel.”
oh. my. god.
9 December, 2008 at 12:54 pm
“If you are not Jewish you can live in Israel.”
oh. my. god
Only 76% of Israelis are Jewish. 19% are Arab with a another 5% making up other minority groups.
9 December, 2008 at 12:55 pm
“So, even though it is unlikely, it is possible for anti-Zionist political party to win government. That’s why the Government of Israel is not a Zionist.” – ‘lil Pip
Hence the current outrage in Israel over the Palestinian-Israeli campaign for Israel to be defined as the state of its citizens.
9 December, 2008 at 1:02 pm
i’m not disputing that people of non-jewish faith live in israel rad. only expressing horror in anticipation of the train wreck that is about to take place when robj sees your comments on zionism.
9 December, 2008 at 1:02 pm
RadMatt, you must read more carefully. I did not say you can’t live in Israel if you’re not Jewish. Read what I wrote again: “If you’re not Jewish, you can’t move there to live.”
The difference is very, very subtle, but it’s there if you look hard enough.
9 December, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Confessions, I personally know of a number of people who are neither Jewish nor of Jewish descent who have moved to Israel to live. I have no idea of the specifics of Israeli immigration law – but it is certainly not impossible.
Of course, I understand that it is impossible for Jewish people to enter Saudi Arabia.
9 December, 2008 at 1:06 pm
By the way, RadMatt, I also didn’t say you had to adhere to the Jewish religion to be permitted to move there. I said Israel was “a state set aside for the adherents of a particular religion, and those who do not practise the religion but are descended from Jewish ancestors”.
Christ this is hard work. No wonder I quit teaching.
9 December, 2008 at 1:07 pm
RadMatt, you must read more carefully. I did not say you can’t live in Israel if you’re not Jewish. Read what I wrote again: “If you’re not Jewish, you can’t move there to live.”
I don’t disput that, but the point is that being Jewish does not mean that you are Zionist and becoming an Israeli citizen, it is not a requirement that you are Zionist.
Zionism is an international political movement, it does not define the Jewish religion or the Israeli government.
9 December, 2008 at 1:08 pm
So Nic, are you saying the basis on which the Israeli state was founded is no different in principle from that of any other nation?
9 December, 2008 at 1:15 pm
“Read what I wrote again: “If you’re not Jewish, you can’t move there to live.” ” – Badbob
Nic is almost right on this.
Of course you can be a temporary resident for work purposes. The only possibility to move there permanently is if you marry an Israeli. As a individual non-Jewish person, no , you can’t emigrate to Israel.
But there is a nasty little caveat on the marriage route – it doesn’t apply if you are a Palestinian. The Israeli Govt passed a law excluding Palestinians from this provision.
9 December, 2008 at 1:18 pm
Thanks for that clarification Michael.
9 December, 2008 at 1:22 pm
“….the point is that being Jewish does not mean that you are Zionist and becoming an Israeli citizen, it is not a requirement that you are Zionist.
“Zionism is an international political movement, it does not define the Jewish religion or the Israeli government.”
Oh Jesus Mary and Joseph, pray for us.
9 December, 2008 at 1:24 pm
BadBob – not in the 20th century. There were many national movements positing the creation of a country for the people of a particular nation (e.g. Poland and about every European country that was created that century).
Even in the 21st century, we have that within the various former Yugoslavia nations, and national movements in Quebec, Scotland etc.
Israel is somewhat different to some of the European examples – in that it defines itself solely on the basis of religion – but so did Pakistan during the partition of India (which may not have been voluntary) and the main differences between Serbs, Croats and Bosnians is religious only. There are many other examples I could cite.
Currently quite a few Islamic nations have clauses in their constitutions proclaiming that they are open to all Islamic people (although in practice I understand they tend to be ignored).
Certainly Israel is different in the sense that a lot of immigrants to that nation were from outside the area – but there has always been Jews in the land of modern Israel, and a large number came from areas in the middle east (such as Iran, Iraq and so forth).
9 December, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Do you know of any country that has immigration policies denying access on the basis of religion?
9 December, 2008 at 1:29 pm
Does everyone get the same possibly related posts up above? The ones I see currently includes:
“Double Cover [3]: What Is A False Flag Attack?”
How odd.
9 December, 2008 at 1:44 pm
BadBob – I understand that Saudi Arabia denies entry to all Jewish people.
Certainly Smart Traveller states:
“You may be refused entry to Saudi Arabia if your passport or luggage has evidence of travel to Israel, such as entry or exit stamps or any stickers with writing in Hebrew. ”
Incidentally, Saudi Arabia and other Arab league states prevents Palestinians from being granted citizenship, even where it is open to others. They do this on the basis of keeping Palestinians as a separate stateless people.
9 December, 2008 at 1:49 pm
Saudi Arabia is pretty fucked I agree, but that’s a rather different matter from setting up a state on the basis of religion alone. I’m not necessarily saying it’s a bad thing – I think it’s an arguable proposition on historical grounds – but I really don’t think it’s comparable with any other modern nation, and it needs to argue its case with far more empathy for the peoples it has displaced.
9 December, 2008 at 1:52 pm
“Do you know of any country that has immigration policies denying access on the basis of religion?”
You forgot the ‘civilised’ bit, As Nic has pointed out Saudi Arabia discriminates against Jews, but hey, they’re an authoritarian religious dictatorship, with an absolute monarchy used as a conduit for the West, they put heavy limitations women decent rights. They’re another prick of a nation that has low respect for human rights..
That’s two countries – Israel and Saudi.
9 December, 2008 at 2:00 pm
That same warning is on Smart Traveller’s website on Yemen – I understand that it is common amongst Arabic countries.
9 December, 2008 at 2:13 pm
Muslim countries excluding Jews, as repugnant as that is, is not equivalent to Israel excluding everyone but Jews. The case needs to be argued at a much more sophisticated level than that, especially by someone who has been critical of the notion of “moral equivalence” in this very thread.
PS: Where has RadMatt gone? Has he been sprung by his teacher?
9 December, 2008 at 3:33 pm
“BadBob – I understand that Saudi Arabia denies entry to all Jewish people.” – Nic
“I understand” is a fantastic little phrase for alowing us to say all kinds of stupid things that we find convenient to say. ‘I wish, for the sake of my argument….’ would be a more accurate rendering of what is meant.
This is a favourite talking point amongst the stridently pro-Israel on the web, when they are looking for a distraction from the realities of the comprehensive discrimination against non-Jews in Israel.
Just so that you do “understand” – there is no prohibition on the entry of Jews into Saudi Arabia. But they generally do not grant visa’s to Israelis.
9 December, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Just so that you do “understand” – there is no prohibition on the entry of Jews into Saudi Arabia. But they generally do not grant visa’s to Israelis.
Can you provide a source? My google searching skills did not seem up to it. But, in any case there is a prohibition on something close to the majority of Jewish people. That’s a nice country.
9 December, 2008 at 4:25 pm
“But, in any case there is a prohibition on something close to the majority of Jewish people” – Nic
Huh?
If you’re an Australian or an American, are Jewish, and you want to go to SA – you can.
Trying to describe this as a prohibition on Jews is not especially honest.
9 December, 2008 at 4:38 pm
Michael, you can’t see the religious discrimination there?
9 December, 2008 at 4:57 pm
SA are pretty up front about it – they have a boycott against Israel.
If you or I had travelled to Israel recently and then applied for a visa to visit SA, there is a chance our application would be rejected.
I don’t think it’s a good policy, but I wouldn’t see it as “religious discrimination”……… because it isn’t.
9 December, 2008 at 10:08 pm
Re: Riots in Greece.
There is always the chance that Bolt’s bias against Greece is infusing this diatribe against ‘the left’.
He has railed against the UN imposed non-recognition of Turkish (and I mean the Turkish state, not Turkish Cypriots) occupied Northern Cyprus.
I doubt it, but who knows with this man.
I believe Bolt also has an agenda to lambast Greek Australians because we are, in my honest opinion, the perfect example of the success of ‘Multi-culturalism’.
10 December, 2008 at 6:54 am
I believe Bolt also has an agenda to lambast Greek Australians because we are, in my honest opinion, the perfect example of the success of ‘Multi-culturalism’
Savvas, in all honesty your statement gives off the stench of self centred arrogance. What make you think that Greek Australians are more successful at Multi-culturalism than any other group?
Even though Greek Australians are a successful example of multiculturalism, many other immigrant groups are equally as successful. Multiculturalism is not all about Greece and I doubt that Bolt would single you out.
10 December, 2008 at 7:41 am
Rad,
I cannot see the point of your rebuttal. I already told you I doubt Mr. Bolt is using this fact. But, I thought I would lay out some points(re: Cyprus and his attacks on ‘multiculturalism’) which some others may be able to draw some conclusions out of.
10 December, 2008 at 7:45 am
“I cannot see the point of your rebuttal.”
You mentioned Bolt, Rad feels obliged to defend. Don’t worry about it Savvas, whilst some here get amusement from Rad’s post I usually find them idiotic and annoying.
10 December, 2008 at 8:08 am
Yeah, but come on. That’s racism, pure and simple. He’s saying that all other ethnic groups in Australia are less successful at integrating than Greeks (what about the Irish, the Germans, the Dutch, the Lebanese (you might have noticed the odd lebanese premier or so), the Maltese, the Indians, etc. etc.
I’ve never seen any comment of Bolt on Cyprus. It is not a common form of discussion with him. Savvas would have to provide a link to Bolt’s “railing” against the non-recognition of the alleged TRNC. Since when, anyway, has UN-recognition even been on the agenda? The last major developments was the Annan plan, which would not have resulted in UN-recognition.
His interpretation of the Greek riots is anti-left. He appears to be pro-Greek government forces supressing the riots. That’s pro-Greek, not anti-Greek at all. Savvas, your interpretation of Bolt’s actions is ludicrous.
Personally – I’m pro-integration of the area occupied by the alleged TRNC into Cyprus proper and the EU, but that has absolutely nothing to do with this topic.
RobJ – don’t be blinded by Savvas’ anti-Bolt comments. He’s trying to bring ethnic disagreements into this topic in a racist fashion.
10 December, 2008 at 8:09 am
Too much stenching going on in those nostrils of yours RadMatt. There’s something stuck up there. Get a hankie and have a good blow.
10 December, 2008 at 8:15 am
Nic, the statement that Greeks are “are, in my honest opinion, the perfect example of the success of ‘Multi-culturalism’” is merely an acknowledgement of their accomplishment. It does not reflect at all on the success or otherwise of other ethnic communities. Call it self-congratulation if you must, but it’s hardly racism.
Savvas is simply looking for the real agenda behind Bolt’s comments. I’m not sure he’s hit on the right one here, but he’s right to point out that Bolt always has one.
10 December, 2008 at 8:16 am
“He appears to be pro-Greek government forces supressing the riots. That’s pro-Greek, not anti-Greek at all.”
So supporting the Zimbabwean people would be anti-Zimbabwe, whereas if we supported Mugabe then we’d be pro Zimbabwe? (by your logic above)
Nic, Greece is the people, NOT the govt, the people will always be there, govts come and go. The govt works for the people, I’d pick that there are a lot of Greek people who are not very happy with the govt.
Now, If Bolt supports the Greek Govt, labels everyone rioting against them as the Left I’d be suspicious of the Greek govt, after all Bolt is a bigoted, doghwhistling HACK!
10 December, 2008 at 8:23 am
Bolt always supports the status quo against any attacks on it. He is a reflexive conservative. Remember his support for the police on Palm Island after the murder of Cameron Doomadgee? He has no interest in what’s really going on in Greece, except insofar as it gives him another opportunity to advance the cause of his “side” in his imaginary culture war.
10 December, 2008 at 8:23 am
BadBob – Savvas used the term “the perfect example”. That’s singular. If he had said “a perfect example”, it wouldn’t necessarily be racist.
RobJ- The Greek riots are only one faction of the Greek people, they certainly are not popular with the majority of the Greek people. It’d be like saying the Cronulla riots represented all Australians. Or saying someone who was against the supression of the Cronulla riots was against the Australian people.
I doubt Savvas is really pro- the Greek rioters. He’s just anti-Bolt because of some perceived ethnic slight.
10 December, 2008 at 8:24 am
I cannot see the point of your rebuttal.
My point is savvas is that you are using bolt as an excuse to big not Greek Australians at the expense of other immigrant groups.
In effect you are saying that Bolt attacks Greek Australians because they are more successful at multiculturalism than all other ethnic groups.
To make things worse, you are trying to introduce your own biased views of Cyprus into the debate.
10 December, 2008 at 8:31 am
“BadBob – Savvas used the term “the perfect example”. That’s singular. If he had said “a perfect example”, it wouldn’t necessarily be racist.”
Some very fine hairs being split there Nic. You’ve been reading too much Bolt.
10 December, 2008 at 8:33 am
RadMatt: “….your own biased views….”
It took a while, but it’s finally sunk in. Koala stamp Raddy!
10 December, 2008 at 8:34 am
BadBob – Savvas used the term “the perfect example”. That’s singular. If he had said “a perfect example”, it wouldn’t necessarily be racist.
I would add nic that savvas’ comments stinks of elitism. Especially with this use of in my honest opinion along side the perfect example.
To back this up he adds Turkish (and I mean the Turkish state, not Turkish Cypriots) occupied Northern Cyprus.
10 December, 2008 at 8:39 am
“It’d be like saying the Cronulla riots represented all Australians. ”
LOL – I thought the Boltards did!
“RobJ- The Greek riots are only one faction of the Greek people”
The Left according to Bolt, but ‘the Left’ and the anarchists are not the same thing, I can already spot more than one faction. Having said that ‘the Left’ is just a phrase Bolt and his retarded followers use to describe everything they don’t like.
As I understand it the Greek Govt is very unpopular anyway and their popularity is diving.
Regardless, Greece is the people, not the govt as you have asserted.
“Some very fine hairs being split there Nic. ”
Nics MO, being disingenuous.
“they certainly are not popular with the majority of the Greek people”
Do you have a link to a poll
10 December, 2008 at 8:41 am
Some very fine hairs being split there Nic. You’ve been reading too much Bolt
There is no splitting of hairs as savvas states that Bolt is specifically targeting Greeks as a way of undermining multiculturalism. If savvas said that Greeks are one of the groups that Bolt is targeting then you could say that it is splitting hairs but savvas is indicating that Bolt singles out Greeks as a way of attacking multiculturalism because they are the perfect example.
10 December, 2008 at 8:49 am
Obviously as a Greek Australian I have an emotional (if not vested) interest in what is going there.
My point about Greeks integrating into Australian life is that we have done it without any trouble (except for the odd soccer riot, which have virtually ended) and yet have held on to our language more than any other long term migrant group. Often, using the Norman Tebbitt test, many of us support Greece over Australia in a sporting contest, but if this is supposed to be the benchmark of whether or not we have integrated, well then the rules are wrong in my opinion. But apparently, according to Andrew Bolt, it was a big enough issue that he would question why many Greeks supported Greece over Australia in the 2006 soccer friendly at the MCG. You see, Greek Australians have proven that you can have emotional loyalties to another country, yet be a perfect citizen of the country your were born and raised in. And that flies in the face of Andrew Bolts view of how an Australian should act.
As for Bolts views on Cyprus, I won’t bother to provide links….just google and you will see his views somewhere there. He is a BIG supporter of Turkey because they are the most progressive Mulsim country he can think of, and since they have a strong relationship with Israel, he will support them against an anti-American country like Greece. He wrote about this back early this decade but has not dared to write anything else since. As for my biased views, well they are the views of EVERY country in the world. Only Turkey supports the occupation.
I have discussed the riots with some of my friends, and they certainly appear to have gone too far.
Lets see how it plays out.
Savvas
10 December, 2008 at 8:56 am
“The Left according to Bolt, but ‘the Left’ and the anarchists are not the same thing, I can already spot more than one faction. Having said that ‘the Left’ is just a phrase Bolt and his retarded followers use to describe everything they don’t like”
Of course, the rioters are composed of a number of different factions or groups, including “youths”, the Left and Anarchists. I identified them above in discussions with BadBob.
But the rioters can be described as one faction. They can be readily separated from the rest of Greek society through a simple test. Is this person currently rioting or not?
The Left is a term used by members of the Left on a regular basis. You may have noticed one of the editors of this blog goes by the alias “Mr Lefty”. It is a convenient descriptor of the links between a number of different groups who share a broadly similar philosophy.
I’m not splitting hairs on Savvas’ comments. Why aren’t you prepared to take him at face value? Just because he dislikes Bolt doesn’t make his comments any less racist.
10 December, 2008 at 8:58 am
You see, Greek Australians have proven that you can have emotional loyalties to another country, yet be a perfect citizen of the country your were born and raised in.
Have you done your national service in Greece yet Savvas? I think that emotional loyalties to another country is rather debatable. I have Greek Australian friends and they are proud to be of Greek decent, but as fare as being loyal to the nation of Greece today, they are not all that loyal. The Greece national service is a good example. 100% of the Greek Australian males I know of avoid travelling to Greece during a time frame that will cause them to be forced into completing compulsory Greek national service.
10 December, 2008 at 9:07 am
Nic, do you find it racist when Australians or Americans talk about theirs being “the greatest nation on Earth”?
10 December, 2008 at 9:10 am
So RadMatt, the test of emotional loyalty is whether you are prepared to do national service? I’m a loyal Australian, but I have always opposed national service, and I would have been a conscientious objector if I had to.
10 December, 2008 at 9:11 am
“he Greece national service is a good example. 100% of the Greek Australian males I know of avoid travelling to Greece during a time frame that will cause them to be forced into completing compulsory Greek national service.”
One could easily be proud of their nation but want nothing to do with the military. One could easily argue that they love their country but oppose National Service.
After all, you strongly supported the invasion of Iraq and the removal of Hussein, yet I doubt you volunteered, and the .mil does need recruits.
You love your country Rad, why don’t you join the ADF?
10 December, 2008 at 9:12 am
BadBob beat me to it…
10 December, 2008 at 9:16 am
You’re a dope lil Pip.
If they had national service in this country I would do everything I could to avoid it too, and I am an Australian that dates his family heritage to around about the first fleet.
Doesn’t mean I don’t love the country. I just happen to disagree with National Service, and in the case of Greek Australians I can understand why they don’t want to be forced into servitude in another country. How do they pay their loans, their rent etc when over there instead of here.
Do you actually think before you type. Wait … let me guess…. you were being sarcastic.
10 December, 2008 at 9:23 am
BadBob – you mean Australia’s not the greatest nation on Earth?
Seriously, I think that’s just advertising puff. Meaningless platitudes.
10 December, 2008 at 9:25 am
No Shane, it was a seven-line typo.
10 December, 2008 at 9:26 am
OK Nic, so why don’t you apply a similar interpretation to Savvas’ comments, rather than depicting them as racist?
10 December, 2008 at 9:26 am
“The Left is a term used by members of the Left on a regular basis.”
The “Left” is a term that Andrew Bolt uses for everything left of John Howard. He calls Obama “the Left”, Clinton – The “Left”. Relatively speaking they are left of Bush but they are most certainly right of centre.
Ironically he never calls National Party members the ‘Left” regardless of the fact that they’re always after govt hand outs.
Bolt overuses the term ‘Left’ as do many of his idiotic sychophants.
10 December, 2008 at 9:29 am
So RadMatt, the test of emotional loyalty is whether you are prepared to do national service? I’m a loyal Australian, but I have always opposed national service, and I would have been a conscientious objector if I had to.
Your comparison is flawed because national service is not compulsory here in Australia. In Greece it is compulsory for all males, including Greeks born overseas to do National service. So if an Australian born Greek your Greek national service is deferred until you return to the country. It doesn’t matter if you are 1st, 2nd or even 3rd generation born Australian. If you are of Greek decent you must complete Greek national service.
So if you love the country so much, you would expect that you would complete all compulsory requirements that your country demands of you.
You love your country Rad, why don’t you join the ADF?
It’s not compulsory for Australians or Australian nationals born overseas to do national service.
10 December, 2008 at 9:32 am
Look at Pipper tapdance.
10 December, 2008 at 9:34 am
Pipper did it ever occur to you that you can love a country but not agree with all it’s policies.?
That a Greek can love their homeland and culture and absolutely stunning geography and still not agree with national service.
Does anything ever get through that peabrain.
10 December, 2008 at 9:36 am
Pipper did it ever occur to you that you can love a country but not agree with all it’s policies.?
That a Greek can love their homeland and culture and absolutely stunning geography and still not agree with national service.
Does anything ever get through that peabrain.
10 December, 2008 at 9:42 am
Doesn’t mean I don’t love the country. I just happen to disagree with National Service, and in the case of Greek Australians I can understand why they don’t want to be forced into servitude in another country. How do they pay their loans, their rent etc when over there instead of here
Shane I am challenging Savvas claim that Greek Australians have proven that you can have emotional loyalties to another country.
Given the demand that Greece places on national service, one would expect that part of proving emotional loyalties would be completing what ever that country expected of you. Greek national service is a very big demand of all Greek males. So big in fact that 1st, 2nd and even 3rd foreign born Greek national must complete it.
As JFK said.
Don’t ask what your country can do for you. Ask instead what you can do for your country
10 December, 2008 at 9:46 am
I suspect the moment you brought up National Service in a cheap shot you regretted it, but you are so used to trying to defend the indefensible you can’t help yourself.
Now you will constantly repeat the line about being Greek = doing national service = love of country. This is your strawman defence for the day – and a poor one at that.
10 December, 2008 at 9:47 am
Bolt’s boss and hero(I am not bothering to find a link. Bolt has written about how much he admires Murdoch) Mr R. Murdoch pledged allegiance to the U.S. for tax reasons, what a loyal Australian. Does scumbag Bolt criticise Rupert. No.
Many Australian citizens hold U.K. and Australian passports, they follow England in cricket or football(soccer) when the two teams play at the MCG for instance. Is weasel word king Andrew Bolt critical of these people. No.
Bolt is racist, and a scumbag, he applies different rules for different people according to their race. Usually to rail on his pet issues. The Greek riots fit two of his agendas as Savvas has identified(multiculturalism and the left). Sane people recognise that behaviour as racist. Bolt world view, two legs bad, four legs good. Sorry, I meant, left all evil, right white knights.
Andrew Bolt adds nothing of any substance to any debate. He bangs on and on like a broken record about how evil multiculturalism is destroying the fabric of Australia, or how the ‘left’ have allowed values to slide, or how compassionate the right are, and why is the ‘left’ so violent, or what a wonderful utopia Israel is. Bolt is a bullshit scatter gun, spraying everything within a wide circle with bullshit.
Solving problems or analysing the deeper issues are meaningless for Bolt, and nor would his target audience understand complex analysis. If you have ever had the misfortune and time to waste reading through the drivel comments at the Bolt blog I genuinely pity you.
10 December, 2008 at 9:47 am
On one hand you quote JFK and on the other you tell us that national service is not compulsory here, so it has no relevance. Seriously…..
10 December, 2008 at 9:54 am
I suspect the moment you brought up National Service in a cheap shot you regretted it, but you are so used to trying to defend the indefensible you can’t help yourself
Stop being ridiculous Shane. I am challenging Savvas’ claims that Greek Australians prove that they have an emotional loyalty to the country of Greece. I am also challenging savvas claim that Greek Australians are the perfect example of multiculturalism because they demonstrate an emotional loyalty to Greece.
Loyalty means doing what ever is expected of you.
10 December, 2008 at 9:57 am
On one hand you quote JFK and on the other you tell us that national service is not compulsory here, so it has no relevance. Seriously…..
What has national service in Australia got to do with anything. Poor boy, please try and keep up. We are talking about Greece and Greek Australians.
10 December, 2008 at 9:59 am
“You love your country Rad, why don’t you join the ADF?
It’s not compulsory for Australians or Australian nationals born overseas to do national service.”
You supported the invasion of Iraq, there is a recruitment shortage, you didn’t sign up?
“Your comparison is flawed because national service is not compulsory here in Australia. ”
No, your entire premise is flawed, one can easily love their country and oppose the military. But you can’t see that , after all you have to reduce everything to black and white.
10 December, 2008 at 10:04 am
“The Greek riots fit two of his agendas as Savvas has identified(multiculturalism and the left). ”
The Greek riots has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with multiculturalism. How can it when it is Greek people rioting in Greece. That is about as mono-cultural rioting as you can get.
Bolt’s opposition to the riots in Greece is simply due to the fact that he generally opposes rioting and looting for the purposes of political protest.
On your logic he would have supported the G20 riots because it was mostly white Australians rioting in Australia.
Do you even read what you write, or are you so consumed by a hatred of Bolt that you’d take hold of any crackpot idea?
10 December, 2008 at 10:04 am
“What has national service in Australia got to do with anything.”
What has National Service got to do with how one feels about there country?
“oor boy, please try and keep up. We are talking about Greece and Greek Australians.”
Thing is you’re the one who introduced the topic of National Service, you’re an idiot and a troll.
10 December, 2008 at 10:06 am
You supported the invasion of Iraq, there is a recruitment shortage, you didn’t sign up?
Poor Rob, you are not very bright are you?!
I was talking about the extremely strict nature of compulsory national service in Greece and how that impacts Greek nationals born here.
No, your entire premise is flawed, one can easily love their country and oppose the military. But you can’t see that , after all you have to reduce everything to black and white.
Of course they can Rob. But I am talking about Savvas claim of being emotionally loyal to a country.
You can love a country but if you disagree with the laws of that country and avoid what is compulsory, then you are not emotionally loyal.
.
10 December, 2008 at 10:07 am
Hey go easy on Rad.. He is doing his bit for the country in the call centre.
10 December, 2008 at 10:07 am
“On your logic he would have supported the G20 riots because it was mostly white Australians rioting in Australia.”
What was his stance on Cronulla? I ask because I don’t know, I wasn’t reading Bolt back then but I wouldn’t mind wagering that he had a different view of the Cronulla riots to that of the G20 or Greek riots.
10 December, 2008 at 10:10 am
“Loyalty means doing what ever is expected of you.”
Gosh and golly RadMatt, that’s some definition you’ve got there. Did you also know that love means never having to say you’re sorry?
10 December, 2008 at 10:10 am
You can love a country but if you disagree with the laws of that country and avoid what is compulsory, then you are not emotionally loyal.
So I take it then that you don’t disagree with anything Rudd enacts as law whilst in power, otherwise you are not loyal to this country. (hey it’s your logic at work here! I am just using it)
10 December, 2008 at 10:10 am
Thing is you’re the one who introduced the topic of National Service, you’re an idiot and a troll
No Rob, I was talking about emotional loyalty to a country. Compulsory National service was an example loyalty. If you are expected to do something and you do everything to avoid it, you are not being loyal.
I get the impression that you don’t understand the meaning of being loyal.
10 December, 2008 at 10:12 am
“Poor Rob, you are not very bright are you?! ”
That’s a compliment coming from you, thing is you’re to stupid to realise it.
“I was talking about the extremely strict nature of compulsory national service in Greece and how that impacts Greek nationals born here.”
You raised National Service in a futile attempt to smear Savvas because he doesn’t grovel to your hero.
“Of course they can Rob. But I am talking about Savvas claim of being emotionally loyal to a country. ”
Yeah i know, and the rest of us are intelligent enouggh to realise that one could be ‘emotionally loyal’ and STILL OPPOSE COMPULSORY NATIONAL SERVICE!
“You can love a country but if you disagree with the laws of that country and avoid what is compulsory, then you are not emotionally loyal.”
Says the resident idiot Boltard.
10 December, 2008 at 10:14 am
“You can love a country but if you disagree with the laws of that country and avoid what is compulsory, then you are not emotionally loyal.”
The boy is back to his very best! I’m collecting these for the Melbourne Comedy Festival. I’m just going to stand on a stage and read them, one after another. Start queueing for tickets now.
10 December, 2008 at 10:14 am
So I take it then that you don’t disagree with anything Rudd enacts as law whilst in power, otherwise you are not loyal to this country. (hey it’s your logic at work here! I am just using it)
Who said anything about disagreeing with a law? I am talking about avoiding a compulsory requirement.
10 December, 2008 at 10:15 am
“I get the impression that you don’t understand the meaning of being loyal.”
I understand the term blindly obedient, I understand that some people don’t like to think for themselves or question authority, sad, pathetic souls that they are.
10 December, 2008 at 10:15 am
“I get the impression that you don’t understand the meaning of being loyal.”
Oh mercy!
10 December, 2008 at 10:16 am
“I am talking about avoiding a compulsory requirement.”
The man’s a genius!
10 December, 2008 at 10:16 am
How do you keep it up RadMatt? What’s your secret?
10 December, 2008 at 10:19 am
Bolt on the Cronulla riots:
“But the case did indirectly add to the evidence that the Cronulla riot was not a spontaneous outbreak of traditional Australian racism, as so many commentators preferred to believe, but was instead an ugly yet understandable reaction to a menacing and occasionally violent race-based beach takeover:
”
There you go, making excuses for the rioters because they’re white and railing against Muslims.
10 December, 2008 at 10:21 am
Who said anything about disagreeing with a law? I am talking about avoiding a compulsory requirement.
YOU are the one who said :
“You can love a country but if you disagree with the laws of that country and avoid what is compulsory, then you are not emotionally loyal.”
Notice how you said if you “disagree with the laws of that country”. It’s there in black and white – YOU WROTE IT!
You apparently are not loyal to Australia, otherwise you would agree with every single law enacted in this country, even when they contradict and overturn each other.
Let’s look at your use of the word compulsory. Ever made a “mistake” on your tax obligations Pipper. Ever run a red light?. If so by your logic, you are disloyal to this country.
Grow a fucking brain.
10 December, 2008 at 10:21 am
He’s an apologist for rioters!
10 December, 2008 at 10:26 am
Shane, I take strong exception to your exhortation to RadMatt to grow a fucking brain. This guy is a fresh and original comic talent and deserves to be nurtured and encouraged. Are there government grants for this sort of thing?
10 December, 2008 at 10:26 am
“It’s there in black and white – YOU WROTE IT!”
Sarcasm?? ;o)
I just don’t understand why Rad bothers, i really don’t, i know he enjoys anonymity, but he gets consistently spanked in every debate.
Nic,
Why does Bolt make excuses for the Cronulla rioters?
10 December, 2008 at 10:29 am
“You can love a country but if you disagree with the laws of that country and avoid what is compulsory, then you are not emotionally loyal.”
Notice how you said if you “disagree with the laws of that country”. It’s there in black and white – YOU WROTE IT
The emphasis is on AND. You are only focusing on half the sentence. How oh so convenient for you.
What I said was if you disagree with a law and what is compulsory then you are not emotionally loyal.
What that means Shane is that you can disagree with the law but you are still required to complete what is compulsory.
Let me put it into terms that will help you understand,
Lets use water restrictions as an example. I can disagree with water restrictions but I am still required to abide by them because they are compulsory. If I chose to not comply with the water restrictions and I watered my driveway, then I cannot say that I am a loyal citizen.
10 December, 2008 at 10:32 am
No RAD.
You see “AND” requires both parts of the equation to be true, not one – that is “OR”.
So if you disagree with water restrictions but still abide by them, you are still disloyal according to your logic.
10 December, 2008 at 10:35 am
Either way Rad. Answer this, have you ever got a traffic infringement?, a parking ticket?
If so you have broken the law, and thus are disloyal. Oh it’s oh so fun to see things in such a black and white way – of course if it doesn’t suit your argument you can always play at semantics.
10 December, 2008 at 10:35 am
If you don’t stop at a stop sign (compulsory requirement) then you’re not a loyal citizen, you could’ve fought in 2 world wars but if you don’t obey a stop sign then I’m afraid you’re just not a loyal citizen (or if you breach water restrictions)
LOL
I’m understanding now BadBob, Rad is hilarious.
10 December, 2008 at 10:36 am
I have just been reading the comments to this post, and I must say well done to Rad, your twists and turns in trying to define “loyalty” to suit your micron-thin argument are excruciating … car crash reading.
May I suggest two things to avoid getting into this tortuous position in your future blog arguments:
1. At the outset, agree with your interlocutors on a dictionary that can be referred to in case of definitional arguments, as you seem to get into them a lot.
2. Select a “sarcasm font” which you will use whenever you are being sarcastic, to differentiate it from your serious posts, just to make it clear to those of us who are inexperienced with nuance.
Oh yeah, on topic: Australia allows dual citizenship with many countries, which encompasses the idea of dual “loyalty”.
Supporting a sporting team and undertaking national service are clearly different things, despite what Orwell said.
10 December, 2008 at 10:36 am
Nic,
Bolt and Cronulla? Got anything to say?
10 December, 2008 at 10:37 am
“What I said was if you disagree with a law and what is compulsory then you are not emotionally loyal.”
Stop it RadMatt, people are looking at me.
10 December, 2008 at 10:39 am
I just read RadMatt’s last comment and two little jets of coffee spurted out my nostrils.
10 December, 2008 at 10:46 am
Stop it RadMatt, people are looking at me
I thought you said that you didn’t get out much?
10 December, 2008 at 10:48 am
RobJ – it’s been what 10 minutes? I know you love reading my comments, but give me a little break.
“Why does Bolt make excuses for the Cronulla rioters?”
I don’t think he is. That comment (Sept 30 2006, I think) was in relation to the leniency shown by a magistrate to one of the lebanese thugs who was with a large group (over 100, according to police) who beat up a surf life saver on cronulla beach, in what may or may not have been an attempt to take the beach – which triggered the rioting.
I don’t think anyone can seriously argue that the Cronulla riots was solely due to racism without looking at the triggers and the consequences afterwards (including the revenge stabbing attacks by ethnic gangs on a japanese tourist).
Again, even if you can say that Bolt supported the cronulla riots, you must admit he did not support the G20 riots. Therefore you have to admit that Bolt does not take a different view of left wing/anarchist/youth riots whether they happen in Australia or Greece. In other words, Bolt’s opposition to the greek riots is not because they are greeks rioting but is consistent with his general opposition to left wing/anarchist/youth riots.
Succintly – Savvas is wrong if he suggests that Bolt’s opposition to the riots is due to his racism against Greeks.
Note Savvas was not suggesting that Bolt is racist in general, but that he is racist against Greeks. In fact, Savvas suggested that he was pro-Turkish. You can’t be pro-turkish and racist in general (unless you are a Turk, I guess).
10 December, 2008 at 10:52 am
Note Savvas was not suggesting that Bolt is racist in general, but that he is racist against Greeks. In fact, Savvas suggested that he was pro-Turkish. You can’t be pro-turkish and racist in general (unless you are a Turk, I guess).
As I said, Savvas comments give off the stench of elitism and arrogance.
10 December, 2008 at 10:56 am
““Why does Bolt make excuses for the Cronulla rioters?”
I don’t think he is.”
LOL -
Forget it…..
“Again, even if you can say that Bolt supported the cronulla riots,”
Except I’m not saying that, I’m saying he is making excuses (I pasted it, even bolded the excuse but you still can’t see it???!!!) for the riots whilst using the Greek Riots to pour scorn on the ‘Left’
What a hypocritical biased, bigoted twat he is yet Nic and Rad still stick up for him.
“You can’t be pro-turkish and racist in general (unless you are a Turk, I guess).”
WTF – so If I say I love Turkey and Turks but hate black people, Italians, skippies etc etc I couldn’t be a racist. ?
10 December, 2008 at 11:09 am
If I say I love Turkey and Turks but hate black people, Italians, skippies etc etc I couldn’t be a racist. ?
Well, the specific racism charge leveled at Bolt is that he racistly opposed multi-culturalism and therefore opposes the Greek riots. Apparently the link is that in Australians Greeks are successfuly integrated into society and Bolt hates immigrant groups. If so, he would hate the Turks as well as the Greeks. But we come to illogical conclusion, because apparently he hates the Greeks in part because he likes the Turks.
This is crazy on many different levels. Or is it only me?
10 December, 2008 at 11:13 am
Just when you thought ‘lil Pip had scrapped the bottom of the stoopid barrell……..
10 December, 2008 at 11:15 am
And just when you thought there was only one ‘l’ in barrel…….
I think we need a new post.
Scott, Ant, Jeremy, Tobias……..HELP!!!
10 December, 2008 at 11:25 am
“If so, he would hate the Turks as well as the Greeks.”
Why? He’s a racist, loving Turks doesn’t absolve him of this. If he wasn’t a racist he would have snipped Ronald Reagun last week, not only did he not ‘SNIP’ Reagun he actually (or somebody) replaced a dissenting post with Reagun rationalising his racist post.
10 December, 2008 at 11:29 am
Rad, you are a comic, lol
If you’re fair dinkum and read the rubbish that Bolt writes you would find out he is a racist little twat……..get your love blinkers off Rad.
10 December, 2008 at 11:34 am
Nic,
I NEVER said he RACISTLY opposed Multiculturalism.
10 December, 2008 at 11:36 am
RobJ – The specific charge levelled against Bolt was that he hated Greeks because he hated all multicultural groups who have successfuly integrated into Australia.
That’s rubbish and unrelated to whether he is a racist or not.
In any case, he most obviously is not a racist, you’d have to be an idiot to believe that. Hate the man because of his economics or his politics – but this site and some of the commentators go overboard in labelling Bolt a racist.
10 December, 2008 at 11:39 am
“I believe Bolt also has an agenda to lambast Greek Australians because we are, in my honest opinion, the perfect example of the success of ‘Multi-culturalism’.”
That sounds awfully like you are saying he is racist against Greeks because he hates multi-culturalism.
10 December, 2008 at 11:55 am
“In any case, he most obviously is not a racist, ”
So Nic, why does he tolerate racist posts on his Blog but instantly snip the most benign posts that happen to hit a nerve with him?
Bolt isn’t a racist
Bolt didn’t make excuses for the Cronulla rioters
Removing the sewer in Jenin isn’t collective punishment
LOL – In your universe maybe. Bolt is a racist bigoted twat!
I do despise Bolt for his politics, his racism, sexism and general bigotry… “Hate” That’s your word, you use it a lot when you are describing how others think!
10 December, 2008 at 11:55 am
I NEVER said he RACISTLY opposed Multiculturalism
So Savvas, why do you think Bolt is against multiculturalism?
10 December, 2008 at 12:01 pm
RobJ- for a person who complains about other people making things up and claiming that you said it – you have a good line in doing the same. since when have I ever said that:
“Removing the sewer in Jenin isn’t collective punishment”
10 December, 2008 at 12:16 pm
“In any case, he most obviously is not a racist, you’d have to be an idiot to believe that.”
Well Nic, that decides the issue: I am an idiot.
10 December, 2008 at 12:19 pm
“I thought you said that you didn’t get out much?”
No. No I don’t RadMatt. Your point being?
10 December, 2008 at 12:27 pm
No. No I don’t RadMatt. Your point being
My point being that you claim you are somewhere where people are staring at you. This indicates that you are in an office or public place.
10 December, 2008 at 12:31 pm
rad you are embarrassing yourself now. please stop, for the love of god.
10 December, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Jeepers RadMatt, you’ve got me there! But seriously, I said I didn’t get out much, not that I didn’t get out at all. I get out often enough to share a laugh with some friends while reading your posts, but I really must remember not to do it while I’m drinking coffee.
10 December, 2008 at 12:34 pm
“rad you are embarrassing yourself now” Don’t discourage the boy, confessions!
10 December, 2008 at 12:39 pm
I think it is time for a unilateral declaration of topical irrelevance. In other words, I think we’ve thrashed this thread out long enough and nothing anyone is going to say is going to have any further point.
Thoughts?
10 December, 2008 at 12:41 pm
rad you are embarrassing yourself now. please stop, for the love of god.
LOL This coming from the queen of mock outrage and hysterical hate filled rants.
10 December, 2008 at 12:45 pm
Yet again a previously enjoyable site has been taken over and is now a shrine to the ravings of the Idiot Clown Prince.
10 December, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Well Nic, you did say Bolt wasn’t making excuses for the Cronulla rioters when he said “an ugly yet understandable reaction to a menacing and occasionally violent race-based beach takeover”. Yet by the standards he was applying in his posts about the terror attacks in Mumbai, this makes him an apologist, don’t you think? Or is it just a hypocrite? Left wing bad, Right wing understandable, that sort of thing?
10 December, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Notice how when beaten, Rad decides to change course and pretend it never happened.
10 December, 2008 at 12:48 pm
“Thoughts?”
i want to hear rad’s thoughts on national loyalty again. especially in relation to water restrictions.
i know, i know, i wanted him to stop. but i’m having a bad day and need some cheering up.
10 December, 2008 at 12:50 pm
OT:
In today’s column, Bolt laments the lack of invesment in infrastructure because he was stuck in traffic:
Have we gone mad? To have so little land, water and, soon, power, and to be so short of good roads and trains, is something you might forgive if this were Ougadougou or we’d just gone through a depression.
But this is what we’ve done to ourselves after perhaps the longest and richest boom in our history.
Something has changed, and it’s this: we’ve lost the brains and balls to plan ahead. To actually build stuff.
And he accuses others of having an irony deficit!
Perhaps Bolt’s supporters here can show they can be objective and identify why this is ironic?
10 December, 2008 at 12:52 pm
Notice how when beaten, Rad decides to change course and pretend it never happened.
Is that how you comfort yourself shane?
I have already explained my point. If you cannot understand the jist of the debate then that is your problem. Next time, don’t just focus on half of one of my sentences, read the whole thing.
10 December, 2008 at 12:53 pm
RadMatt, you responded well (if a little belatedly) to this week’s parsing lesson, so here’s another lesson, this time about embarrassing yourself.
If a person (let’s call him RM for argument’s sake) repeatedly embarrasses himself in a public forum, he does not diminish the degree of his embarrassment by pointing out that someone else (let’s call her c for argument’s sake) might have also embarrassed herself. RM’s self-embarrassment still stands on its own merits.
10 December, 2008 at 12:55 pm
No Rad.
You got it wrong and you can’t even bring yourself to say it. No one else here is backing up your ridiculous semantic game. Even Nic isn’t going there.
10 December, 2008 at 12:55 pm
RadMatt, stop talking about jist. Children might be reading this. Or writing it.
10 December, 2008 at 12:56 pm
I’m with you confessions. I want RadMatt to explain to us about loyalty again. Some of us are slow on the uptake RadMatt. Come on, say it again!
10 December, 2008 at 12:57 pm
But please once more, give us the ever changing rules for “emotional loyalism”.
10 December, 2008 at 1:00 pm
If a person (let’s call him RM for argument’s sake) repeatedly embarrasses himself in a public forum, he does not diminish the degree of his embarrassment by pointing out that someone else (let’s call her c for argument’s sake) might have also embarrassed herself. RM’s self-embarrassment still stands on its own merits.
The problem with your argument BadBod is that I have not been embarrassed. Just because you want someone to feel an emotion, it is up to that person to feel it.
RadMatt, stop talking about jist. Children might be reading this. Or writing it
Hilarious Badbod. The problem is there is not t in the word you think I said.
10 December, 2008 at 1:02 pm
““Removing the sewer in Jenin isn’t collective punishment””
You denied that the IDF practiced collective punishment, you assumed that I was talking about the inflated casualty rate, I wasn’t I was talking about the IDF vandalising civilian infrastructure.
So let’s get this straight, are you denying that the IDF destroyed the sewer or are you denying that such an act doesn’t constitute collective punishment?
“I think it is time for a unilateral declaration of topical irrelevance. In other words, I think we’ve thrashed this thread out long enough and nothing anyone is going to say is going to have any further point.”
You would say that, after all you wont even acknowledge Bolt making excuses for the Cronulla rioters. You don’t believe Bolt is a racist regardless of the fact that he tolerates racist posts on his site (whilst ‘SNIPPING’ others with gay abandon for bullshit reasons).
10 December, 2008 at 1:04 pm
But please once more, give us the ever changing rules for “emotional loyalism”.
I suppose if your partner cheated on you shane or they were never there for you when you needed them then you would still think that they were loyal to you?!
10 December, 2008 at 1:07 pm
What does jist mean RadMatt?
10 December, 2008 at 1:07 pm
in his forum today (1st page) somebody has posted a youtube they are calling noble savages. i didn’t open it but apparently is disturbing. when someone asks the moderators to “do their job” the reply from the moderators is very interesting:
“Moderator replied to Peter
Wed 10 Dec 08 (12:03pm)
Chris, the post is a forum with all sorts of subjects up for discussion. While this content may be disturbing – as RoseB warned hours ago – it also raises issues about primitive customs and the left’s embrace of moral relativism. We wouldn’t be doing our job if we didn’t allow sensitive matters to be aired.”
10 December, 2008 at 1:08 pm
“The problem with your argument BadBod is that I have not been embarrassed. Just because you want someone to feel an emotion, it is up to that person to feel it.”
It wasn’t an argument RadMatt, it was a lesson.
10 December, 2008 at 1:09 pm
“I suppose if your partner cheated on you shane or they were never there for you when you needed them then you would still think that they were loyal to you?!”
thanks Rad! i love it. please keep going.
10 December, 2008 at 1:10 pm
What does jist mean RadMatt?
You can’t be that naïve Badbod.
jist –
The whole general idea of a subject.
Example – Did you get the jist of that movie?
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jist
10 December, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Well the Mods at Bolt’s are a joke, so biased when Bolt and his winged monkeys frequently whinge about the bias of Fairfax.
Hypocrites.
10 December, 2008 at 1:10 pm
What does jist mean RadMatt?
You can’t be that naïve Badbod.
jist –
The whole general idea of a subject.
Example – Did you get the jist of that movie?
10 December, 2008 at 1:11 pm
“I suppose if your partner cheated on you … or they were never there for you when you needed them then you would still think that they were loyal to you?!”
That would depend on whether my partner was doing National Service in Greece.
10 December, 2008 at 1:12 pm
“jist -
The whole general idea of a subject.
Example – Did you get the jist of that movie?”
Oh, you mean gist. Typo or sarcasm?
10 December, 2008 at 1:13 pm
jist or gist rad? you are in fine form today!
10 December, 2008 at 1:16 pm
Ahhhh Rad.
What the fuck does that have to do with your original statement. I’m not the one having difficulty understanding what loyalty is.
Lets recap:
You said:
“You can love a country but if you disagree with the laws of that country and avoid what is compulsory, then you are not emotionally loyal.”
Then you said this
“What that means Shane is that you can disagree with the law but you are still required to complete what is compulsory.
Let me put it into terms that will help you understand,
Lets use water restrictions as an example. I can disagree with water restrictions but I am still required to abide by them because they are compulsory. If I chose to not comply with the water restrictions and I watered my driveway, then I cannot say that I am a loyal citizen.”
You made a big deal of the word AND
You do realise that using AND means both parts of the statement must be true.
You contradicted yourself.
It’s not that I have a hard time understanding what you write, it’s more a case of you not understanding what you write.
10 December, 2008 at 1:18 pm
Oh, you mean gist. Typo or sarcasm?
No I meant jist.
Go to this website and you will see.
urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jist*
I didn’t include the www. As this site throughs a fit and passes your post to the moderators if you try & post a link.
10 December, 2008 at 1:18 pm
‘jist’ – fantastic education Rad.
10 December, 2008 at 1:19 pm
Oh, you mean gist. Typo or sarcasm?
No I meant jist.
It is spelt with a j.
Goto google and google jist.
10 December, 2008 at 1:23 pm
From Macquarie:
“Sorry
We could not find “jist”.
Try Fuzzy Search by selecting the box at the top of the page
For help on improving your search results go to our Search Help page.”
Or when it’s spelled right:
“gist
// (say jist)
noun 1. the substance or pith of a matter; essential part: the gist of an argument.
2. the ground on which a legal action rests. [Old French, 3rd person singular present indicative of gesir lie, rest, from Latin jacēre] ”
Rad – Google is not a dictionary, Bolt’s blog is not a source of news.
10 December, 2008 at 1:23 pm
i just did rad and got nothing. try typing define: jist and then another search with define: gist. you’;ll see.
you know you’ve fucked up when it’s me giving spelling lessons btw.
10 December, 2008 at 1:23 pm
JIST. – NO SUCH WORD.
Except in the urban dictionary:
The act of inserting one’s fist into another individual’s vagina or anus until he or she experiences sexual climax, or “jizzes.” A combination of the words fist and jizz.
“I got totally jisted in prison, man.”
10 December, 2008 at 1:26 pm
ahhh, so THAT’S what rad meant. it all makes sense now shane.
10 December, 2008 at 1:28 pm
Shane it was funny how you didn’t mention the other meaning which was what I posted earlier. The word is slang so it can be spelt with a g or a j.
FFS you people just get yourselves all lost in the irrelevant detail. To make it worse, especially in this case you are wrong.
10 December, 2008 at 1:29 pm
Shane, way to make this NSFW.
I won’t read this thread anymore.
10 December, 2008 at 1:30 pm
Shane, way to make this NSFW.
I won’t read this thread anymore.
Really?. The words vagina and anus are unacceptable. However will we describe them to anatomy students. Sheesh.
10 December, 2008 at 1:33 pm
“Shane it was funny how you didn’t mention the other meaning which was what I posted earlier. The word is slang so it can be spelt with a g or a j.
FFS you people just get yourselves all lost in the irrelevant detail. To make it worse, especially in this case you are wrong.”
There you have it people. Slang is this year’s sarcasm.
We have just had a preview of Rads argument technique for the new year.
Rad since most of your arguments revolve around piddling little retractions and irrelevant detail, does this mean you won’t be gracing us with your prescence anymore.?
10 December, 2008 at 1:35 pm
I guess Nic those previous 8 “fucks” were safe for work (hey make that 9 now), but words that are completely acceptable in any dictionary are not.
Good one.
10 December, 2008 at 1:36 pm
I think I have to check out that Urban dictionary. I’m an immigrant (hence my dist, I’m originally from the UK, one of my favourite things about Australian culture is the colourful language. ‘Pigs Arse’ is my personal favourite.
10 December, 2008 at 1:38 pm
“The word is slang so it can be spelt with a g or a j.”
Fantastic: a: based on fantasy : not real b: conceived or seemingly conceived by unrestrained fancy c: so extreme as to challenge belief
Education: a: the action or process of educating or of being educated ; also : a stage of such a process b: the knowledge and development resulting from an educational process (e.g a person of little education)
That last bit in brackets is the most directly relevant to the case at hand RadMatt. Gist is not a slang word. The Urban Dictionary is not a real dictionary. Andrew Bolt is not a clever person.
10 December, 2008 at 1:39 pm
“FFS you people just get yourselves all lost in the irrelevant detail. To make it worse, especially in this case you are wrong.”
I live in Australia, the Macquarie dictionary, our national dictionary says there is no such word in Australian English. But sure Rad, you know more than the dictionary as a result of your ‘fantastic education’
10 December, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Nic, Shane’s definition was taken from the same source as RadMatt’s.
10 December, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Rad,
Why is Bolt against Multi-culturalism? I don’t exactly know but for him to be so adamant that it is WRONG and to be so dimissive of other views is astonishingly arrogant and foolish (except he has no real power).
Like I said, I very much doubt that his anti-multicultural (at a local level) and his anti Greece (at an international level) viewpoints are the reason why he commented on the riots, but I would dare say that when riots have occured in Turkey, his tone is far different. His articles would be suggesting that the riots are not of a leftist nature and that Turkey does not deserve this to happen to it, whereas with the Greek riots it is what they deserved for their long held hatred of capitalism.
I might be wrong on that particular score, but nevertheless he certanly supports Turkey (much like the US has supported Turkey due its geopolitical position) and Israel, in lockstep with the US.
10 December, 2008 at 1:42 pm
Good pickup, Shane. Now RadMatt has three excuses: typo, sarcasm, and slang.
10 December, 2008 at 1:42 pm
”
Shane, way to make this NSFW.
I won’t read this thread anymore.
”
How convenient just before you address this:
“You denied that the IDF practiced collective punishment, you assumed that I was talking about the inflated casualty rate, I wasn’t I was talking about the IDF vandalising civilian infrastructure.
So let’s get this straight, are you denying that the IDF destroyed the sewer or are you denying that such an act doesn’t constitute collective punishment?”
You’ll be back ;o) (when you think that I’ve forgotten all the BS you’ve posted since you’ve been here)
10 December, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Nic just felt dirty and went to have a shower Rob. He’ll be back.
10 December, 2008 at 1:52 pm
“Now RadMatt has three excuses: typo, sarcasm, and slang.”
and talking with his fist up his arse.
10 December, 2008 at 1:53 pm
“and talking with his fist up his arse.”
That would explain the stench he complains about.
10 December, 2008 at 1:55 pm
Bolt is against multiculturalism because it is underpinned by the idea that all cultures are equal and have something of value to offer the collective. This implies that British institutions, “Christian” culture and Western European traditions may not be superior to all others. If we accept that, we are on the slippery slide of cultural and moral relativism (not unrelated to what Pope Benedict calls “indifferentism”), and who knows where that could lead?
10 December, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Personally I believe RadMatt’s nose is permanently up his arse and that explains the stench. How he manages to type in that position is beyond me. The man is a marvel, a primal force of nature.
10 December, 2008 at 2:00 pm
“I guess Nic those previous 8 “fucks” were safe for work”
LOL – Nic just needs an excuse because he can’t admit that he is wrong, you’ve all seen it Nic claimed that Bolt isn’t racist, Nic claimed that Bolt didn’t make excuses for the Cronulla rioters. Nic’s been soundly beaten in this debate and has gone off to lick his wounds.
10 December, 2008 at 2:02 pm
“Nic’s been soundly beaten in this debate and has gone off to lick his wounds.”
In the shower.
10 December, 2008 at 2:19 pm
New post please. Nic’s pissed off because he doesn’t like fisting. Rad’s stopped posting. It’s not funny any more.
10 December, 2008 at 2:24 pm
OT [ETS] Andy says: It’s pure arrogance for Australians to think only our good example will awaken China to its best interests. China, I’d guess, will decide for itself. and we must simply cope with the consequences.
1. Nobody thought it would take “only our good example”.
2. Wouldn’t it be more like pure arrogance if we were to do nothing but then expect China to awaken to its best interests and act on its own?
As usual, Bolt’s political ideology causes him to twist irrational thought into something that he thinks constitutes logic…
10 December, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Yeah, C’mon Tobias or somebody – make a contribution… I would but the likes of Tobias and Dam Buster are far more eloquent and polite than I could ever be….
10 December, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Rob,
You keep claiming that the IDF destroyed the sewer system in Jenin as some sort of “collective punishment”, please provide some evidence to support your contention that this was the motive behind the Israeli actions — I’ve been googling the topic for days now and the only thing I can come up with is that these sewers were destroyed because they were booby-trapped by the Palestinian fighters and I found one or two references to them being used by those fighters to move around.
These factors would make the sewers legitimate military targets in much the same way as rail and road infrastructure is.
There are plenty of examples of Israel using collective punishment against the Palestinians, but I’m not sure that the sewers of Jenin is one of them.
10 December, 2008 at 5:06 pm
Gavin, try Googling “jenin sewers roads telephone” because it wasn’t just the sewers they broke.
“There are plenty of examples of Israel using collective punishment against the Palestinians”
I agree, Jenin was just the first one to spring to mind in the heat of the debate.
11 December, 2008 at 6:01 am
Rad………i just looked in my trusty Oxford dictionary and no such word as JIST……perhaps even that inane Mr. Logic from Andys’ blog can help you out.
P.S. the word is GIST!
11 December, 2008 at 7:56 am
Wouldn’t it be more like pure arrogance if we were to do nothing but then expect China to awaken to its best interests and act on its own?
It would be pure stupidity for us to introduce an ETS with no guarantee from China that they will act. By 2030, china will make up 33% of all global CO2 emissions. We will make up less than 1% and the US will only make up 11%.
BTW DeaniaL the global economic crisis is causing the AGW alarmist house of cards to collapse. The EU, which was the heart land of AGW alarmism, is in crisis over climate change policy with countries like Poland and Italy threatening to back out.
11 December, 2008 at 8:01 am
Rad, yes, politicians are weak as piss the world over, just clarify something for me. Do you agree with Andrew Bolt’s stance on AGW?
Props for showing up here today after yesterdays effort.
11 December, 2008 at 8:08 am
Rad, would you mind terribly if i asked you to jog my memory me about national loyalty again? At the supermarket yesterday some fucker forgot to return their trolley to the designated bay, leaving it in the middle of the only car space left. clearly a suburban anarchist who hates australia, yes?
11 December, 2008 at 8:15 am
Rad, yes, politicians are weak as piss the world over, just clarify something for me. Do you agree with Andrew Bolt’s stance on AGW?
My point of view of AGW is similar to Bolt’s in the respect that I am not convinced that AGW is the cause of climate change and that the AGW movement is more about politics and religion than science. There are serious concerns regarding the hijacking of climate change science by radicals like Gore and flannery. Also the blatant attempt by these people to silence and destroy any kind of debate on the subject is totalitarian in nature.
At least there seems to be a few things moving in the right direction in this country. Rudd is slowly backing away from serious climate change policy and the coalition is finally finding it’s balls and making more of a stand against irresponsible climate change policy.
I am hoping that history will show that the financial crisis of 2008 was the event that saw the world finally awake from the irrational hysteria surrounding climate change.
11 December, 2008 at 8:17 am
Rad, would you mind terribly if i asked you to jog my memory me about national loyalty again? At the supermarket yesterday some fucker forgot to return their trolley to the designated bay, leaving it in the middle of the only car space left. clearly a suburban anarchist who hates australia, yes?
Get a life confessions. Returning a shopping cart and compulsary national service similar to that of Greece is very different.
11 December, 2008 at 8:25 am
“My point of view of AGW is similar to Bolt’s in the respect that I am not convinced that AGW ”
Similar? Bolt is a denier who claims the world is cooling and that there is no AGW. Do you agree?
“Also the blatant attempt by these people to silence and destroy any kind of debate on the subject is totalitarian in nature. ”
Can you give example of them attempting to silence debate? Bolt seems to do OK spewing his rubbish, no-one is silencing him, even the ABC has him on (which makes an utter mockery of his ‘bias’ claims). Remember Bolt on Q&A? He was talking over people, trying to silence debate. The funny thing is just that week one of his sycophants was painting a picture of what that episode would be like, the boltard suggested that the ‘Left’ would just shake their heads in disbelief when others were having their say. Guess what, they didn’t, Bolt did.
“Rudd is slowly backing away from serious climate change policy and the coalition is finally finding it’s balls and making more of a stand against irresponsible climate change policy.”
Like I say, politicians are weak as piss they act for political expediency and their own re-election prospects.
“I am hoping that history will show that the financial crisis of 2008 was the event that saw the world finally awake from the irrational hysteria surrounding climate change.”
I think most people are not irrationally hysterical, they prefer to defer to the experts and err on the side of caution. (Bolt isn’t an expert, he’s a crap journalist, ie he’s shit at writing, which he gets paid for, he’s appalling at simple arithmetic, I can’t see him getting his head around the science)
“I am hoping that history will show that the financial crisis of 2008 was the event that saw the world finally awake from the irrational hysteria surrounding climate change.”
You’re also hoping that history will prove you right on Sarah Palin, I don’t fancy your chances.
11 December, 2008 at 8:32 am
Similar? Bolt is a denier who claims the world is cooling and that there is no AGW. Do you agree?
There is no such thing as a denier when it comes to scientific theory. You cannot deny something that is only theory and has not been proven scientifically.
Would you call a person who is sceptical of the science surrounding string theory a string theory denier?
Can you give example of them attempting to silence debate?
Calling people deniers and trying to smear the reputations of scientists that come out against the theory of AGW.
Anyone who calls another person a denier because they dispute the theory of AGW is trying to silence debate.
11 December, 2008 at 8:33 am
thank you Rad. returning a shopping trolley can’t be compared with national service, but adhering to water restrictions can be. I knew i could count on you to clear things up for me.
:o) lol!!!
11 December, 2008 at 8:38 am
“Bolt isn’t an expert, he’s a crap journalist, ie he’s shit at writing, which he gets paid for, he’s appalling at simple arithmetic, I can’t see him getting his head around the science”
he has posted another of his graphs today showing sea rises. the trend line clearly goes up, but bolt tries to convince the sheep sea levels aren’t rising.
no, i can’t see him getting head around the science either.
11 December, 2008 at 8:38 am
“There is no such thing as a denier when it comes to scientific theory. ”
Here we go again. Bolt says there is no AGW, that is NOT scepticism
Seriously, I’m sorry I bothered.
“Calling people deniers and trying to smear the reputations of scientists that come out against the theory of AGW. ”
Nobody on Bolt’s side of the argument would ever smear…. /sarcasm. There you go exaggerating, give me some links where they have acted in a totalitarian nature..
Actually don’t bother, like every other topic you can never ever admit to being wrong. Just yesterday you were trying to convince us that the word ‘gist’ was actually spelled wrong and was a slang word spelled ‘jist’. Why on earth you couldn’t, just for once admit that you’d made a spelling error. Trolls are never honest in a debate.
11 December, 2008 at 8:41 am
thank you Rad. returning a shopping trolley can’t be compared with national service, but adhering to water restrictions can be. I knew i could count on you to clear things up for me
You cannot compare water restrictions with returning a shopping cart, water restrictions are law and not abiding by them could have consequences for society, returning a shopping cart is not law and will not have consequences for society.
11 December, 2008 at 8:44 am
“returning a shopping cart is not law and will not have consequences for society.”
Yay! Does that mean we can keep dumping them in the Maribyrnong then?
11 December, 2008 at 8:45 am
Here we go again. Bolt says there is no AGW, that is NOT scepticism
Seriously, I’m sorry I bothered
Bolt is sceptical. You are trying to redefine what a sceptic is rob. When it comes to scientific theory you are either sceptical or you are not sceptical. There is no denying or denialist. You can not deny something that is only scientific theory based on future events and computer modelling.
Rob you didn’t answer my question, would you call a person sceptical of String Theory a denialist?
11 December, 2008 at 8:46 am
“returning a shopping cart is not law and will not have consequences for society.”
jesus wept!
11 December, 2008 at 8:54 am
If a government accepts that AGW is an issue – and both the major parties in Australia do – then it stands to reason that, if they intend to do something about the issue, then an ETS (i.e. a way of controlling CO2 emissions) will be necessary at some point.
Putting the administrative infrastructure in place to handle this asap is a sensible thing to do. Even if it proves that AGW is a non-issue in the future or that Australia is severely disadvantage economically (e.g. China refuses to comply), then, if the scheme is implemented sensibly, the cap can be adjusted or even zeroed as necessary.
“Waiting for China” is hypocritical political posturing by an Opposition looking for any advantage to shore up their appalling standing.
11 December, 2008 at 8:59 am
If Bolt really was a skeptic, there would be evidence on his blog of him questioning the anti-AGW science. Care to show us the evidence, RadP?
If Bolt were really interested in being objective, there would be evidence of him giving serious consideration to the pro-AGW arguments – at least the same level of promotion as he gives to the anti-AGW. Care to show us the evidence, RadP?
I know you can’t.
This means Bolt is not a skeptic and he is not objective.
Not a difficult logical process to follow.
11 December, 2008 at 9:03 am
“I think most people are not irrationally hysterical, they prefer to defer to the experts and err on the side of caution. ”
So why not defer to these experts?
UN Blowback: More Than 650 International Scientists Dissent Over Man-Made Global Warming Claims
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=2158072e-802a-23ad-45f0-274616db87e6
11 December, 2008 at 9:05 am
“Bolt is sceptical. You are trying to redefine what a sceptic is rob”
Yeah, I really ought to defer to your language expertise, clearly I haven’t got the jist of this. …../sarcasm
“Rob you didn’t answer my question, would you call a person sceptical of String Theory a denialist?”
If one were to categorically deny that string theory was impossible of course I would, because I actually understand what words mean, you on the other hand…LOL ’nuff said.
11 December, 2008 at 9:07 am
BTW idiot, the word is ‘denier’ there is no such word as ‘denialist’
It’s a bit rich you advising us the definition of words isn’t it Rad. And you claim to have had an ‘excellent education’
11 December, 2008 at 9:09 am
Putting the administrative infrastructure in place to handle this asap is a sensible thing to do. Even if it proves that AGW is a non-issue in the future or that Australia is severely disadvantage economically (e.g. China refuses to comply), then, if the scheme is implemented sensibly, the cap can be adjusted or even zeroed as necessary.
If that is what the government wants to do, then they need to drop the rhetoric about climate change and com clean to the Australian public.
The only reason why the opposition can present it’s stand on climate change is because of Rudd.
If Bolt were really interested in being objective, there would be evidence of him giving serious consideration to the pro-AGW arguments – at least the same level of promotion as he gives to the anti-AGW. Care to show us the evidence, RadP?
Since when has being sceptical meant being impartial? When a person is sceptical of the science, they will present argument to back up why they are sceptical and why they believe the theory is wrong. This is what Bolt is doing. Science isn’t a democratic political process, it’s about serious debate and presenting scientific theory to back up your theory. To do that you have to argue why the opposing theory is wrong and also present evidence of why you are right.
Dean there is no place in science for the term denialist. Would you call a person who disputes String Theory a denialist?
11 December, 2008 at 9:12 am
If one were to categorically deny that string theory was impossible of course I would, because I actually understand what words mean, you on the other hand…LOL ’nuff said
LMAO . Explain to me how one would deny string theory.
11 December, 2008 at 9:18 am
Hello Rob,
Yes, I read the WRMEA report, about the rebuilding of Jenin, among many others that were just dealing with the battle and its aftermath, none of them anywhere suggest that any of the infrastructure was destroyed as a means of collective punishment. Given the lies that were told about the “massacre” in Jenin by the Palestinians, I’d also be cautious about how far I’d trust any report that relies on Palestinian ’survivors’ of Jenin as a source of its information.
There’s no question that the sewers were destroyed, the question is the motivation behind it, as I said above, if as is claimed they were booby-trapped and being used as a means for the Palestinian fighters to move around, they were a legitimate target. It’s also possible that the sheer weight of the heavy vehicles driving over them unintentionally caused them to collapse in places, another possibility is that they were collapsed by bombs or artillery shells landing in their vicinity.
As to the roads and telephone lines being destroyed, I would have thought that is no more than the usual infrastructure damage that is caused in any street battle, driving heavy caterpillar vehicles along any road will tear it up, not to mention of course bombs and artillery shells, and the booby-traps set by the Palestinians — some of those were heavy calibre ordnance as well. Even this rather virulently anti-israeli piece that seems to list every possible Israeli breach of Palestinian rights in 2002, both real and imagined, suggests that the damage to infrastructure such as the roads, sewers and telephone lines was incidental due to the passage of armoured vehicles….I’m sceptical of many of the claims of Israeli abuses in it because of many of the sources they list, but I reckon if they thought that the infrastructure damage in Jenin was a war-crime they’d have said so:
http://www.piccr.org/dmdocuments/AnnualReports/2002/eng/chapter1-israeli_violations_.pdf
As to the buildings being destroyed, it is a standard practice in a street battle to remove the frontage of buildings if its possible to do so…it prevents them being used by snipers, all the reports I read suggested that the Israeli’s didn’t start doing this in Jenin until after 13 soldiers were killed in a single ambush in a courtyard surrounded by buildings, and that reports of whole neighbourhoods being flattened were grossly exaggerated, from what I can make out, the only area that was really flattened was a relatively small area in the centre of Jenin where the Palestinian fighters had bunkered themselves in.
Given that the Palestinian fighters had prepared booby-traps inside buildings and had turned the streets into firing lanes, it is unreasonable to expect that the Israelis would send troops in on foot unsupported by heavy vehicles.
11 December, 2008 at 9:25 am
Rad, since you don’t even understand the word why would I bother?
“Dean there is no place in science for the term denialist.”
There’s no such word, you’re a fucking moron, you’ve been playing on Dean’s handle for months, thing is you actually had to make up a whole new word.
Do you have no shame, your grasp of English is utterly appalling for one who claims that they’ve had an ‘excellent education’, of course it’s just more evidence that you’re a liar.
“Would you call a person who disputes String Theory a denialist?”
Disputes or denies? It’s probably news to you but ‘dispute’ and ‘deny ‘have different meanings. That Bolt has categorically stated that AGW doesn’t exist means he’s denying such a thing, he’s not disputing it, there is no DISPUTE as far as your bigoted hero is concerned. Of course this goes straight over your head, being a simpleton and all.
11 December, 2008 at 9:28 am
“As to the roads and telephone lines being destroyed, I would have thought that is no more than the usual infrastructure damage that is caused in any street battle,”
Maybe you could tell us how this infrastructure was booby trapped, or allowed Palestinian militias to move about?
“driving heavy caterpillar vehicles along any road will tear it up, ”
How about digging trenches in the road. If a caterpillar track is used here we’d use, what are they called? Track pads? So they don’t rip the road up.
I saw all our old Leopards in Melb once, they didn’t rip the road up.
Anyway Gavin, I’m a bit time poor today, I’ll read your post properly later.
11 December, 2008 at 9:33 am
Rad, since you don’t even understand the word why would I bother?
Rob I know what string theory is as I have a background in Physics. I also understand how string theory helps solves why gravity is weakest of the 4 natural forces of the universe (gravity, electromagnetic, weak and strong nuclear).
Now explain how someone can be a denier of string theory?
Disputes or denies? It’s probably news to you but ‘dispute’ and ‘deny ‘have different meanings. That Bolt has categorically stated that AGW doesn’t exist means he’s denying such a thing, he’s not disputing it, there is no DISPUTE as far as your bigoted hero is concerned. Of course this goes straight over your head, being a simpleton and all
Oh Please, dispute and saying it doesn’t exist can be the same thing. Now you are playing on words Rob.
Explain how someone would be a denier by saying that String theory does not exist?
11 December, 2008 at 9:34 am
“Dean there is no place in science for the term denialist.”
There’s no such word, you’re a fucking moron, you’ve been playing on Dean’s handle for months, thing is you actually had to make up a whole new word
Stop trying to divert attention Rob. Denialist, denier…. These are words used in the media. But if it makes you happy I will stop using the word denialist.
11 December, 2008 at 9:58 am
“Stop trying to divert attention Rob. ”
What from Bolt categorically stating that there is no AGW? You are very confused fool!
11 December, 2008 at 10:02 am
“Rob I know what string theory is as I have a background in Physics.”
Yeah, i enjoyed the book the Elegant universe myself. My background is Mechanical Engineering, unlike you I don’t profess to be an expert.
You’re using String Theory as an analogy to deny that Bolt is an AGW denier, then accusing others of diverting attention, you’re an idiot!
11 December, 2008 at 10:04 am
“Oh Please, dispute and saying it doesn’t exist can be the same thing. Now you are playing on words Rob.”
No Rad, I understand the meaning of words, you’ve demonstrated that you don’t. There is a difference between dispute and dent, it’s crucial that you understand this before you can see where you’re going wrong.
11 December, 2008 at 10:05 am
What from Bolt categorically stating that there is no AGW? You are very confused fool!
And your point being Rob? Bolt categorically stating that there is no AGW, does not make him a denier as AGW is scientific theory.
Rob, if one was to say categorically that string theory was wrong and that there was no “String theory” in the universe, would you call them a denier?
11 December, 2008 at 10:08 am
If that is what the government wants to do, then they need to drop the rhetoric about climate change and com clean to the Australian public.
Come clean about what?
Since when has being sceptical meant being impartial? When a person is sceptical of the science, they will present argument to back up why they are sceptical and why they believe the theory is wrong. This is what Bolt is doing.
Like you, RadP, Bolt is not a scientist and he is incapable of knowing if his “scepticism” is valid or not. Bolt plays no part in the scientific process whatever. I am judging his ability to be objective about an issue – which is what he calls on everyone else to do but so dismally and hypocritically fails at.
11 December, 2008 at 10:09 am
You’re using String Theory as an analogy to deny that Bolt is an AGW denier, then accusing others of diverting attention, you’re an idiot!
Rob it is a fair argument. String theory is a scientific theory. AGW is scientific theory.
If you say that Bolt is a denier of AGW, then you should be able to say that a person can be a denier of string theory. If you can’t then saying Bolt is a denier of AGW is wrong.
11 December, 2008 at 10:11 am
“Would you call a person who is sceptical of the science surrounding string theory a string theory denier?” – ‘lil Pip.
If they were sceptical, of course not.
But if they demonstrated an egregious disregard for known facts, misrepresented data, gave prominence to cranks over scientists and put it all down to ‘physics religion’ , I’d scream “denier” from the top of my lungs.
11 December, 2008 at 10:16 am
Rad after yesterday’s effort do you really want to get into an argument about the meaning and spelling of words? and if you were being honest you’d admit that andy is not a sceptic, he’s a liar and a fraud. how many times has this been proven at this blog?
11 December, 2008 at 10:19 am
Come clean about what?
Come clean that there is a chance that they are setting up the infrastructure with the possibility of ramping up or ramping down depending on countries like China.
As long as Rudd claims that 2010 is not negotiable and he continues to label the opposition as Deniers/sceptic as a way of political point scoring then he is open to attacks from the opposition about the risks of acting when China does not.
Rudd has set the political environment on climate change politics. As long as rudd uses it for his own political benefit at the expense of the opposition, then he only has himself to blame for the tactics of the opposition.
Like you, RadP, Bolt is not a scientist and he is incapable of knowing if his “scepticism” is valid or not.
You are not a scientist either Dean so the same could be said about you. You don’t know for sure if your belief in AGW is real.
Like most of us including you Dean, Bolt basis his opinion on the evidence as presented by the experts. Bolt provides the links on his blog.
11 December, 2008 at 10:20 am
Shhhhhhhhhhh confessions, it’s fun seeing Rad try to mount a semantic argument. He has to make words up just to post
11 December, 2008 at 10:25 am
But if they demonstrated an egregious disregard for known facts, misrepresented data, gave prominence to cranks over scientists and put it all down to ‘physics religion’ , I’d scream “denier” from the top of my lungs.
But that is not a denier. Especially when the facts you are referring to are theory and cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt given that there is still part of the science that cannot be explained and is not understood.
Using your analogy, the Einstein would have been called a denier when he first released his theory of relativity because it when against the Newtonian theory of space and time.
11 December, 2008 at 10:33 am
yes RobJ it is fun but i’m tiring of having to scroll through his bullshit: trolleys can’t be compared with national service but water restrictions can; scepticism is the same as denialism; bolt is not a denialist; the government is not being upfront with us and on and on and on. it is mind-numbingly monotonous. either Rad has no shame or is just incredibly naive and stupid.
11 December, 2008 at 10:35 am
Bolt basis his opinion on the evidence as presented by the experts.
No, he doesn’t. He bases his opinion on a political ideology. If he based it on the opinions of experts, he’d be giving at least equal weight to the experts of both sides on his blog. You know he doesn’t do this.
I’ll happily look at any counter-AGW scientific theory – and I do.
And you’ve already admitted Bolt isn’t impartial.
As usual, you destroy your own argument just by continuing to write.
You truly are the worst debater I’ve every come across.
11 December, 2008 at 10:44 am
“bolt is not a denialist”
Well fair dos confessions, he isn’t nobody is, after all there’s no such thing as a ‘denialist’. ;o)
“Bolt basis his opinion on the evidence as presented by the experts. ”
Bolt can’t even do simple arithmetic, he’s not up to the task of understanding the science, he reacts with his wingnut ideology, like he does for everything else.
If I were Bolt, I’d have a problem with fools like Rad attempting to stick up for me.
11 December, 2008 at 10:50 am
No, he doesn’t. He bases his opinion on a political ideology. If he based it on the opinions of experts, he’d be giving at least equal weight to the experts of both sides on his blog. You know he doesn’t do this
He does dean. Bolt has presented theories that are pro AGW and then he presents evidence that proves them wrong. An example being work from the CSIRO and other organisations that are AGW leaning.
11 December, 2008 at 10:51 am
“after all there’s no such thing as a ‘denialist’”
i won’t argue with you as my own spelling and grammar is shit most of the time. unlike Rad i know my limitations and have no problem admitting to them.
11 December, 2008 at 10:52 am
“i won’t argue with you as my own spelling and grammar is shit most of the time. ”
Sorry confessions, I wasn’t having a go at you, I was having another pop at Rad who claims to have had a ‘fantastic education’
11 December, 2008 at 10:57 am
Sorry confessions, I wasn’t having a go at you, I was having another pop at Rad who claims to have had a ‘fantastic education’
In other words Rob, because you cannot keep up with the debate you are going to focus on something superficial like a spelling mistake?!
Was it when I mentioned string theory? Was it too much for you to keep up?!
11 December, 2008 at 10:57 am
no offence taken, i was just having my own little dig at rad who profess to know how to spell words and their meaning only to get proven wrong.
Rad: “Bolt has presented theories that are pro AGW and then he presents evidence that proves them wrong.”
yes, but does it ever work the other way?
11 December, 2008 at 11:01 am
yes, but does it ever work the other way
Have you ever presented a theory the other way? Have you ever argued against AGW?
11 December, 2008 at 11:05 am
LOOK OVER THERE! Rad this is not about me.
If you say bolt presents pro-AGW data and then disproves it using evidence that is alternative as proof that he is a sceptic, then by definition he would also present anti-AGW data and disprove it using evidence that is pro-AGW. can you show me where he has done this?
11 December, 2008 at 11:12 am
LOOK OVER THERE! Rad this is not about me.
If you say bolt presents pro-AGW data and then disproves it using evidence that is alternative as proof that he is a sceptic, then by definition he would also present anti-AGW data and disprove it using evidence that is pro-AGW. can you show me where he has done this
Don’t be ridiculous confessions. Did you even read that before you posted it.
You are expecting bolt to conform to criteria that even you would not. You are saying that he should argue both sides of the argument simultaneously. That would mean that he would have to argue that AGW is real while also saying it is not.
I doubt that you or any other believers in AGW like Gore or flannery argue the point that AGW is real.
So tell me confessions, when has Al Gore argued that AGW does not effect climate change and when has he presented evidence from scientists that dispute AGW and argued their point?
11 December, 2008 at 11:14 am
I doubt that you or any other believers in AGW like Gore or flannery argue the point that AGW is real
before you get all hysterical that should read;
I doubt that you or any other believers in AGW like Gore or flannery argue the point that AGW is NOT real.
11 December, 2008 at 11:19 am
“I doubt that you or any other believers in AGW like Gore or flannery argue the point that AGW is NOT real.”
Heh, I’m a sceptic, I don’t know whether AGW is real or hype! I do know however that Bolt is a denier because he doesn’t say he’s not sure, he says that AGW does not exist! That is NOT a sceptical view.
I know what a sceptic is Rad, I’m a sceptic. Now Rad, do you deny that there is such a thing as AGW?
Just answer the fucking question in plain simple terms so that we can move on. Do you think you could do that?
11 December, 2008 at 11:21 am
Heh, I’m a sceptic, I don’t know whether AGW is real or hype! I do know however that Bolt is a denier because he doesn’t say he’s not sure, he says that AGW does not exist! That is NOT a sceptical view.
OK so using your definition of a sceptic, when have you presented evidence that AGW is not real?
11 December, 2008 at 11:25 am
WTF – You can’t just answer the question.
A simple request is too difficult for you! Did you notice confessions post where she wrote:
“LOOK OVER THERE! Rad this is not about me. ”
My definition of a sceptic is the same as the dictionary’s (Macquarie) you know that book you’re supposed to look up words in, as opposed to relying on Google? (LOL)
11 December, 2008 at 11:27 am
oh god Rad, you inane mumblings and prevaricating are doing my head in. your also shooting yourself in the foot by contradicting your original stance.
You said to justify bolt’s scepticim: “When a person is sceptical of the science, they will present argument to back up why they are sceptical and why they believe the theory is wrong. This is what Bolt is doing.”
when RobJ challenged about this you said: “Bolt basis his opinion on the evidence as presented by the experts.”
when Dean challenged you about this you then said: “He does dean. Bolt has presented theories that are pro AGW and then he presents evidence that proves them wrong. An example being work from the CSIRO and other organisations that are AGW leaning.”
when i challenge you to find where bolt exercises his sceptisim the other way you say: “when has Al Gore argued that AGW does not effect climate change and when has he presented evidence from scientists that dispute AGW and argued their point?”
Al Gore is not a climate change sceptic or deniar. bolt is a denier not a sceptic otherwise he would be prepared to consider the weight of evidence that supports AGW. you know he doesn’t do this, you just can’t admit it becasue you never admit to being wrong. you simply prefer to sit there mindlessly posting drivel even when it ends up contradicting your original stance. it’s utterly pointless Rad, so why do it?
my god the whole morning of your posts is like the straw house in 3 little pigs. i’m sorry, but i can’t do this anymore, it’s like arguing with a 4 year old.
11 December, 2008 at 11:29 am
Answer the question Rob;
OK so using your definition of a sceptic, when have you presented evidence that AGW is not real?
You claim that Bolt cannot be a sceptic because he doesn’t present both sides of the argument, meaning that he will not argue the case for AGW.
That means that for you the be a sceptic, using your definition that you too would have to argue against AGW and argue the case that AGW is not real. If you don’t then you are a AGW Believer.
11 December, 2008 at 11:29 am
“it’s utterly pointless Rad, so why do it?”
Insanity? Anyway my boss’ll kill me if I don’t get cracking..
I’m out for a while.
11 December, 2008 at 11:32 am
when Dean challenged you about this you then said: “He does dean. Bolt has presented theories that are pro AGW and then he presents evidence that proves them wrong. An example being work from the CSIRO and other organisations that are AGW leaning.”
What in this sentence can you NOT understand confessions?
I said that bolt produces evidence from those that claim AGW is real and then he argues why they are wrong.
Hence this part of the sentence; then he presents evidence that proves them wrong
11 December, 2008 at 11:41 am
it’s utterly pointless Rad, so why do it?”
Insanity? Anyway my boss’ll kill me if I don’t get cracking..
I’m out for a while.
As I said before, will do anything to shut down debate.
11 December, 2008 at 11:41 am
“Using your analogy, the Einstein would have been called a denier when he first released his theory of relativity because it when against the Newtonian theory of space and time” -’lil Pip
The Pip has tipped……from denialism to delusionism.
Einstein, according to ‘lil Pip, was guilty of “an egregious disregard for known facts, misrepresented data, gave prominence to cranks over scientists…”. Quite a claim.
The denialists don’t seem to get that science is sceptical. That is a guiding principle – new theories and explanations over-turn old ones only when they have the weight of evidence on their side.
AGW emerged slowly, challenging the notion that the Earth’s climate was slow-changing in response to natural cycles and immune to human influence. Gradually the evidence has emerged to over-turn the long held orthodoxy of the insignificance of anthropogenic factors.
It’s of little surprise that conservatives like Bolt cling to the old orthodoxy.
11 December, 2008 at 11:48 am
“As I said before, will do anything to shut down debate.”
OK Rad, you win with your intellectual rigor eg:
“I said that bolt produces evidence from those that claim AGW is real and then he argues why they are wrong.”
Then you write right underneath it:
“Hence this part of the sentence; then he presents evidence that proves them wrong”
In your universe argues = proves?
In your universe denier = sceptic?
As far as shutting down debate, what debate? Just up the page I wrote:
“I know what a sceptic is Rad, I’m a sceptic. Now Rad, do you deny that there is such a thing as AGW?
Just answer the fucking question in plain simple terms so that we can move on. Do you think you could do that?”
BTW – you really need a new dictionary, preferably one written in this universe.
11 December, 2008 at 11:52 am
Bolt has presented theories that are pro AGW and then he presents evidence that proves them wrong.
Bolt has presented any scrap of counter-evidence he can get his hands on, no matter where it comes from and no matter how long ago it has been refuted or debunked. Not only that, he has consistently shown he doesn’t even understand the evidence he presents.
He’s a fool and is held in any esteem only by those more foolish than himself.
11 December, 2008 at 11:52 am
“They have every opportunity to turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other”
Which country were you referring to you ignoramus?
Did this ever get answered?
11 December, 2008 at 11:54 am
And anyone that thinks Bolt has “proven” anything in regard to climate science and AGW definitely a member of that set of fools.
11 December, 2008 at 11:54 am
Einstein, according to ‘lil Pip, was guilty of “an egregious disregard for known facts, misrepresented data, gave prominence to cranks over scientists…”. Quite a claim.
What part of Using your analogy do you not understand.
The denialists don’t seem to get that science is sceptical. That is a guiding principle – new theories and explanations over-turn old ones only when they have the weight of evidence on their side.
The correct term is the principle of falsification and I have been arguing this all along. The problem is that the principle of falsification means that you accept the possibility that your theory will be proven wrong, given that there is still unexplained parts of your theory. In the case of AGW, you would accept that there is a good chance that AGW will be proven not to be a cause of climate change as a greater understanding of climate change is developed.
BTW according to Rob denialist is not a word Michael.
11 December, 2008 at 11:55 am
Nah, he just back pedaled and lied like the liar he is. Rad has never ever once admitted error, he claims that the word ‘gist’ which he can’t spell is a slang word. etc etc etc.
Rad is a troll but as BadBob has observed he’s entertaining, he’s a great rep for the bigotted ignoramuses he comes here to defend.
11 December, 2008 at 11:56 am
“BTW according to Rob ”
According to the dictionary actually, I just happen to agree, unlike you. LOL
11 December, 2008 at 11:57 am
“. In the case of AGW, you would accept that there is a good chance that AGW will be proven not to be a cause of climate change as a greater understanding of climate change is developed.”
But Bolt has categorically stated that AGW doesn’t exist, but hey, you’re a liar so there’s no surprises there.
11 December, 2008 at 11:58 am
According to the dictionary actually, I just happen to agree, unlike you. LOL
So rob, will you correct Michael for his error?
11 December, 2008 at 11:59 am
Hi Rob,
This thread has moved on to other things now, so we should probably drop this subject, unless you really want to continue it..I just think the other folks here are maybe more interested in other topics…here’s my answers to your reply before…
Let me round off my bit by saying I don’t agree with you on Jenin, but certainly you’re right about plenty of other Israeli actions against the Palestinians…There’s no doubt that there is fault on both sides.
“Maybe you could tell us how this infrastructure was booby trapped, or allowed Palestinian militias to move about?”
I was referring to the sewers being booby trapped, it’s very difficult to find any definitive description of these booby traps, but in my experience, trip-wires rigged to explosives would be a fairly standard one. This article is long but briefly mentions “….booby traps on the sides of sewers….”, http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27516 , as for them being used to move around by the militia, as I said I only found a couple of references to that in all the, (I don’t know how many sites I looked at), and they were claims made by Israeli commanders…I’m not sure if its true, which is why I said that it was claimed…, but it is a possibility, which if true would make their destruction a legitimate action…Even if it isn’t true, the planting of booby-traps in them would still warrant their destruction.
“How about digging trenches in the road…….”
There is only brief mentions of booby-traps, but here’s another article that mentions “….As the infantry fought its way into Jenin they were confronted by “boobytraps, in the houses, in the yards, in the roads, in places between the houses, in the garbage cans”.
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/04/20/1019233283566.html
Using bulldozers to dig up roads where there are suspected booby-traps (bear in mind a booby-trap can be any size explosive device), is a sound policy, certainly far better than sending infantry over a danger area.
Using rubber tracks and pads on caterpillars does help to protect bitumen roads, however, they are not meant or suitable for combat conditions, damage to them can immobilise the vehicle. I’m not sure if the roads in Jenin itself were sealed, certainly in all the pictures I’ve seen they don’t appear to be….But I could be missing something there.
While I think about it, the destruction of phone lines (ie. The destruction of your opponent’s communications system), is also a recognised standard military policy…It’s no war-crime to prevent the enemy from being able to communicate with other forces he may have outside of the current battle area.
11 December, 2008 at 11:59 am
“Did this ever get answered?”
no, that never got answered, simply swerved around before attempting to be passed off as something entirely different with some other different meaning.
“And anyone that thinks Bolt has “proven” anything in regard to climate science and AGW definitely a member of that set of fools.”
the only thing bolt has proved with AGW is that he’s a liar and a fraud.
11 December, 2008 at 11:59 am
But Bolt has categorically stated that AGW doesn’t exist, but hey, you’re a liar so there’s no surprises there
OMG it like talking to a child. What the fuck are you on about rob?
11 December, 2008 at 12:02 pm
“OMG it like talking to a child.”
and to sarcasm, typos, slang and lies we can finally add irony.
11 December, 2008 at 12:09 pm
“The correct term is the principle of falsification and I have been arguing this all along. The problem is that the principle of falsification means that you accept the possibility that your theory will be proven wrong, given that there is still unexplained parts of your theory” – ‘lil Pip
Who feed these poor fools the ‘principle of falsification’ meme??
Scientists understand it all too well.
It’s one of the reasons that AGW is the accepted scientific theory – computer simulations have been run on the observed historical temp record, and natural factors can’t explain the full extent of observed temperature increases.
11 December, 2008 at 12:17 pm
It’s one of the reasons that AGW is the accepted scientific theory – computer simulations have been run on the observed historical temp record, and natural factors can’t explain the full extent of observed temperature increases.
But it is only scientific theory. Until 100% of the science of climate change is fully understood, the principle of falsification has implications. This means that as more of the science of climate change is understood, there is a greater chance that AGW will be falsified.
natural factors can’t explain the full extent of observed temperature increases
This statement is not correct as not all of the science of climate change is understood. This means that you cannot say that natural factors cannot explain current climate change because scientist still don’t understand all the science of climate change.
11 December, 2008 at 12:20 pm
more unanswered questions:
“Sorry Rad, you haven’t answered the question, why is it OK to ally ourselves with people who i would contend are equally ruthless but even more lawless than the Taleban.”
“If you don’t stop at a stop sign (compulsory requirement) then you’re not a loyal citizen, you could’ve fought in 2 world wars but if you don’t obey a stop sign then I’m afraid you’re just not a loyal citizen (or if you breach water restrictions)”
“Where is Rads mock indignation and shrill demands for recognition of the UN’s authority when Israel is discussed? ”
“If atrocities upset you then why aren’t you outraged that the coalition has allied themselves with pricks like Dostum?”
“Rad, why do you single out the Taleban and choose to ignore the atrocities of the NA?”
“So what do you think needs to be done about “the recruitment of militant Islamic groups within wealthy western countries” and “those that have already been recruited and brainwashed into committing terror attacks”, RadMatt?”
“Now Rad, do you deny that there is such a thing as AGW? Just answer the fucking question in plain simple terms so that we can move on. ”
all of these have gone unanswered or some attempt to wriggle around them. Rad Pipper: contortionist extroadinnaire.
11 December, 2008 at 12:36 pm
all of these have gone unanswered or some attempt to wriggle around them. Rad Pipper: contortionist extroadinnaire.
You stupid, stupid woman. I was referring to science you idiot. Unanswered questions meaning science that is yet to be explained.
11 December, 2008 at 12:46 pm
BTW confessions. The supposed questions you have highlighted are not unanswered. Refer to my posts.
For example
Now Rad, do you deny that there is such a thing as AGW? Just answer the fucking question in plain simple terms so that we can move on
This is just a stupid question. I have already argued that denial is not a word that can be used for science theory. I am sceptical and yet to be convinced that AGW is a cause of climate change. There is no denial because AGW is not a proven fact, only a scientific theory.
11 December, 2008 at 12:49 pm
Thanks confessions, that list of ignored/unanswered points and questions I’ve directed at Rad just highlights how much time I’ve wasted.
Thanks
Thanks a lot
;o)
11 December, 2008 at 12:50 pm
“I was referring to science you idiot. Unanswered questions meaning science that is yet to be explained.”
of course you were Rad. science doesn’t define ‘country’ that’s why you can’t answer david’s repeating of your palestinian effort from last week. science has no answer to why you single out the taliban, and THAT’S why you didn’t answer Rob’s question. and science can’t tell us why you cherrypick UN stance and so that’s why you are mute when it comes to the UN view on Israel.
11 December, 2008 at 12:55 pm
This must be a record for the longest thread ever…
I’ve posted a reply to you somewhere above Rob, but its still in moderation…
Back to AGW et al….I’m finding this quite an entertaining discussion to be honest..
11 December, 2008 at 12:56 pm
of course you were Rad. science doesn’t define ‘country’ that’s why you can’t answer david’s repeating of your palestinian effort from last week
I have already stated that Hamas is hindering any chance Palestine has of being able to move forward and become prosperous in the future.
and science can’t tell us why you cherrypick UN stance and so that’s why you are mute when it comes to the UN view on Israel.
Oh and I see that you give equal attention to the plight of Israel which suffers under the pathological attacks from Hamas’s use of children and people as suicide bombers.
11 December, 2008 at 12:58 pm
Back to AGW et al….I’m finding this quite an entertaining discussion to be honest..
So what’s your opinion of AGW as a cause of climate change? Are you a sceptic like me or a believer like Rob, dean and confessions?
11 December, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Thanks Gavin, I’m still digesting your last post, you put a fair bit of effort into it. I’m not ignoring you, it takes thought to address your post, I’ve just been addressing the easy posts today.
“I have already stated that Hamas is hindering any chance Palestine has of being able to move forward and become prosperous in the future.”
But what country were you referring to?
“Oh and I see that you give equal attention to the plight of Israel which suffers under the pathological attacks from Hamas’s use of children and people as suicide bombers.”
Look over there! Has anyone here championed the terrorist attacks against Israel? Slagging off Israel’s actions doesn’t necessarily mean one is ‘with the terrorists’ I know you and GW (who you respect, even though his presidency has been utterly disastrous) see everything in black and white, the rest of us are more thoughtful.
11 December, 2008 at 1:02 pm
‘believer like Rob,’
That you’re comprehension skills fail you doesn’t make me a believer. Where have I said that I believe AGW, I just don’t categorically dismiss it like your hero.
C’mon, put up or shut up, I need you to link to where I’ve said I’m an AGW believer!
11 December, 2008 at 1:04 pm
“But it is only scientific theory. Until 100% of the science of climate change is fully understood, the principle of falsification has implications. This means that as more of the science of climate change is understood, there is a greater chance that AGW will be falsified.” – ‘lil Pip
This is exactly the problem with the denialists – they use the terminology, but don’t really understand it. Hence we have ‘lil Pip babbling on like it is.
Falsification is about the testibility of the hypothesis. If AGW was predicated on the action of ghosts lighting fires in the bowels of the earth, we would have an untestable hypothesis. However, not only has the AGW theory passed this in theory, being very testable, it has been subjected to actual testing and has passed, as I said above.
To sum up – ‘lil Pip is a denialist, preferring scienciness to science.
11 December, 2008 at 1:05 pm
But what country were you referring to?
I am refering to the proposed state of palestine Rob.
11 December, 2008 at 1:08 pm
No such country fool! you said:
“the Palestinians are not locked up in ghetto’s. They have every opportunity to turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other”
You don’t even realise that Israel has deprived Palestinians of their right to move freely.
And….
….
I’m still waiting for you to link us all to where I claimed I am an AGW believer???????
11 December, 2008 at 1:08 pm
That you’re comprehension skills fail you doesn’t make me a believer. Where have I said that I believe AGW, I just don’t categorically dismiss it like your hero.
I have never heard you argue or even consider the idea that AGW is NOT causing climate change. That means that you are a believer. To be a sceptic you need to be serious about disputing that AGW is real. You haven’t even attempted. To make things worse, you attack anyone that disputes the theory of AGW.
11 December, 2008 at 1:11 pm
“The supposed questions you have highlighted are not unanswered. Refer to my posts. ”
referring me to some of the multiple idiocies you’ve spouted does not help your cause. so far i can unearth the following attempts at answering:
- attributing words to other people (which you’ve done to me 3 times – the last time with no evidence that i wrote what you say, much less an apology)
- simply reposting the original lie in response to demands you back up your claims (once with me)
- going home and returning the next day as if no question was posed the day before
- ignoring the question, pretending it was never asked by changing the subject – LOOK OVER THERE!
- changing the wording of the question and putting it back to the other person (see al gore effort above)
- using excuse of sarcasm, typos, slang, even irony
- outright lies
- blurting out idiotic shit, like equating signing up for national service with obeying water restrictions and hoping nobody will recognise the nonsense it is
- and lastly, calling the question stupid as if answer is somehow beneath you
yes Rad, your answers are quite clear.
11 December, 2008 at 1:13 pm
Falsification is about the testibility of the hypothesis. If AGW was predicated on the action of ghosts lighting fires in the bowels of the earth, we would have an untestable hypothesis. However, not only has the AGW theory passed this in theory, being very testable, it has been subjected to actual testing and has passed, as I said above
LOL you have no idea of what the principle of falsification is Michael.
Consider this. Newton’s theory of space and time was falsified by Einstein’s theory of relativity. Even though Newton’s laws of physics backed up Newton’s theory of space and time. The problem for Newton was that he didn’t understand how velocity and gravity warped space and time. (ie Newton didn’t know about the space-time continuum)
It has nothing to do with testability, rather the unexplained parts of the theory falsifying the original theory as more science is discovered.
11 December, 2008 at 1:14 pm
“I’m still waiting for you to link us all to where I claimed I am an AGW believer???????”
something tells me you’ll be waiting a loooooong time.
11 December, 2008 at 1:14 pm
“I have never heard you argue or even consider the idea that AGW is NOT causing climate change.”
then
“That means that you are a believer.”
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
11 December, 2008 at 1:19 pm
something tells me you’ll be waiting a loooooong time.
– confessions
Refer to your own posts on AGW Confessions.
Now prove me wrong and tell me about how AGW is not causing climate change.
“I have never heard you argue or even consider the idea that AGW is NOT causing climate change.”
then
“That means that you are a believer.”
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight
– Rob
I hate to shatter your world rob but if your attack and dispute anyone that argues that AGW is not causeing climate change then that means that?
That’s right. You believe that AGW is causing climate change.
So are you trying to tell me that you do not believe that AGW is causing climate change?!
11 December, 2008 at 1:25 pm
“So are you trying to tell me that you do not believe that AGW is causing climate change?!”
I wish i’d numbered my points above that way i could refer to this as Rad Pipper Debating Point 1: attribute words to others they have not said.
Rob has never said he knows AGW is happening. are YOU reading posts? probably not, you only see what you want to see.
“Now prove me wrong and tell me about how AGW is not causing climate change.”
i’m not going to do that Rad because i don’t know. however i am prepared to put my trust in the many, many experts who do know instead of pretending their evidence doesn’t exist. or as bolt does, post their graphs and then tell his readers their data shows something else entirely. THAT is denialism not scepticim. haven’t you been reading TObias and Deanl’s and dam buster posts?
11 December, 2008 at 1:32 pm
So, RadP, when is any theory beyond being falsified?
11 December, 2008 at 1:33 pm
Rob has never said he knows AGW is happening. are YOU reading posts? probably not, you only see what you want to see
I didn’t say that knows AGW is happening. I said that he believes that AGW causes climate change.
The problem for Rob and your argument confessions is that you cannot argue that you do not believe that AGW causes climate change while at the same time defending the theory of AGW against those that dispute it.
11 December, 2008 at 1:38 pm
“I didn’t say that knows AGW is happening. I said that he believes that AGW causes climate change.”
So if I never mention religion or debate it does that make me a believer or not? C’mon oh wise one, continue to make your stupid, baseless, FALSE assumptions after all it’s parr for the course for a lying troll.
11 December, 2008 at 1:38 pm
So, RadP, when is any theory beyond being falsified?
The truth is that no theory is beyond falsification. There are limitations to human understanding of the universe given our brain capacity so that means that we will never understand everything.
But given that the more we understand something and the less unexplained parts then the less chance of falsification.
The problem with climate change is that human understanding of climate is in it’s infancy so the chances of falsification are great.
11 December, 2008 at 1:39 pm
Hello Rad,
I’m also a sceptic…
I have no doubt that global warming is occurring, however, I’m not sure how much of it is caused by natural events and how much is due to human activity..
I’m also unsure of exactly what the repercussions are likely to be, or if, if it is an effect being caused by nature, wether there will be a natural counter-balancing ‘cooling’ again at some stage…given that all projections seem to be that the effects will be felt long after I’ve left this mortal coil, I’ll obviously never know…
At this point I suspect it’s probably better to err on the side of caution and at least cut our emissions as much as is practically possible…Preferably without bankrupting ourselves.
11 December, 2008 at 1:41 pm
So, which are the “unexplained” parts of AGW theory that are likely or might possibly be falsified?
11 December, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Sorry Rob,
I meant I posted a reply to your question about the rubber tank tracks, etc…
It’s hard to keep up with this thread !
11 December, 2008 at 1:44 pm
“The problem for Rob and your argument confessions is that you cannot argue that you do not believe that AGW causes climate change while at the same time defending the theory of AGW against those that dispute it.”
yes i can rad. I DON’T KNOW instead of IT’S NOT HAPPENING. clear enough for you?
By the way, I’m not a scientist (well not a pure or hard scientist anyway) so i really don’t know and wouldn’t even know where to begin to argue how AGW is happening. all i can do is read, take in information and look at the credentials of those who do mount arguments. and what i see from blair/bolt is IT’S NOT HAPPENING!!! since when did they become all-knowing, all-seeing science-qualified experts?
11 December, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Gavin, I share your stance, I wonder now if Rad will also call you a believer merely because you haven’t been vigorously debating the topic.
11 December, 2008 at 1:46 pm
“bolt is IT’S NOT HAPPENING!!! since when did they become all-knowing, all-seeing science-qualified experts?”
Rad just loves Bolt and feels obliged to defend the prick.
11 December, 2008 at 1:55 pm
“So, which are the “unexplained” parts of AGW theory that are likely or might possibly be falsified?”
Hmmmm, let me predict this will go unanswered using RAd Pipper Debating Tactic 3: going home and returning tomorrow as no question was ever answered.
11 December, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Gavin,
Here’s the results of a Google image search on ‘Jenin’
http://www.google.com.au/images?q=jenin&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enAU218AU218
The moderate safe search is on but there’ll probably be some gore.
To be honest, reading your big post I don’t know what to believe.. Like you say there are plenty of examples of the IDF engaging in collective punishment, I should have picked something else..
11 December, 2008 at 2:10 pm
Rad must have a copy of the Karl Rove playbook at hand. Evolution is just a theory to Rad, someday people might realise intelligent design is right and evolution will be disproved. U.S. voters will realise the mistake they made with Obama and go for Palin 2012.
The only people who believe the nonsense above are a ever shrinking group of nutters who claim to be conservatives. There was an interesting article in Time this month about how the right have become like the hippy left of the 60’s. The hippies frightened mainstream progressives away from the Democrats, thus enabling the right to win most elections. The nutty religious right and AGW deniers are having the same effect on mainstream conservatives at present.
Bolt thinks he is helping conservatives, nothing could be further from the truth, the beauty of it is he and his loony fanclub are to dopey to realise they are damaging their own brand.
11 December, 2008 at 2:24 pm
“Gavin, I share your stance, I wonder now if Rad will also call you a believer merely because you haven’t been vigorously debating the topic.”
Could do Rob, I’m a bit of a science wasteland I’m afraid, which is why I haven’t got involved in any of this debate.
11 December, 2008 at 2:28 pm
I got a response to you waiting for moderation too (Jenin).
I’m not a complete science dummy but I don’t have the time or inclination to plough through the climate change science. Thus I don’t get involved in the debates either. I ‘ll leave it to the experts. Bolt isn’t even a good journalist let alone a scientist. I’ll take his advice with a massive pinch of salt.
11 December, 2008 at 2:30 pm
I got a response to you waiting for moderation too (Jenin).
I’m not a complete science dummy but I don’t have the time or inclination to plough through the climate change science. Thus I don’t get involved in the debates either. I ‘ll leave it to the experts. Bolt isn’t even a good journalist let alone a scientist. I’ll take his advice with a massive pinch of salt.
11 December, 2008 at 2:57 pm
“Bolt isn’t even a good journalist let alone a scientist. I’ll take his advice with a massive pinch of salt.”
Can only agree there..
Hmm…I think we’re going to be out of sync with our posts on Jenin…
11 December, 2008 at 3:00 pm
Hmm…I think we’re going to be out of sync with our posts on Jenin…
Nevermind , you’ll like my post – I’m conceding, I was impressed by your effort.
11 December, 2008 at 3:11 pm
Lol..
I was suggesting in mine that we possibly should drop the subject because the discussion on the thread had moved on…
I reckon in a way we were probably arguing at cross-purposes, no denying that the infrastructure was destroyed, just the technicality of the motives…something that from here neither of us can really be sure of…
11 December, 2008 at 3:19 pm
“LOL you have no idea of what the principle of falsification is Michael.
Consider this……
It has nothing to do with testability, rather the unexplained parts of the theory falsifying the original theory as more science is discovered.” – ‘lil Pip
Consider this…… prima facie evidence of the stoopidity of the denialists.
11 December, 2008 at 3:22 pm
Bolt’s use of cherry picked graphs is a form of fraud on the argument.
Saying it is cold outside therefore warming isn’t happening or picking out the one area in the country that has below average temperatures when the remainder of the country is above average is fraudulant.
Take his use of 6 days of rainfall in Perth as an indicator of no climate change. In the same monthly report it mentions that the average temperature being the tenth year in a row above average. Hmm why didn’t he mention that I wonder??
more examples are in my blog.
Bolt destroys his own arguments by using these falsehoods. Some arguments he has are well founded but he too often gets tied up in shooting the messenger rather than debating the facts.
11 December, 2008 at 4:58 pm
TODAY’S RADMATT HIGHLIGHTS:
“You don’t know for sure if your belief in AGW is real.”
“Using your analogy, the Einstein would have been called a denier when he first released his theory of relativity because it when against the Newtonian theory of space and time.”
“….you are going to focus on something superficial like a spelling mistake?!”
“In the case of AGW, you would accept that there is a good chance that AGW will be proven not to be a cause of climate change as a greater understanding of climate change is developed.”
“I am refering to the proposed state of palestine Rob.”
“It has nothing to do with testability, rather the unexplained parts of the theory falsifying the original theory as more science is discovered.”
“There are limitations to human understanding of the universe given our brain capacity….”
11 December, 2008 at 5:06 pm
The best way to understand Bolt’s approach to global warming is to compare him to a creationist. He starts from a predetermined position, then goes in search of evidence to support it. If RadMatt had any idea of scientific method, he would immediately spot the problem with this approach. Instead, he starts from the predetermined position that Bolt is sincere and genuine and knowledgeable, then goes in search of evidence to support that position. If he doesn’t find it, he makes it up. If he can’t make it up, he posts some meandering, semi-literate piece of bullshit that diverts everyone’s attention and we all forget what the argument was about.
11 December, 2008 at 5:08 pm
Dam Buster: bolts 6 days of rainfall in Perth comes nowhere near blairs “it’s raining RIGHT NOW therefore no climate change.”
11 December, 2008 at 5:25 pm
TODAY’S RADMATT HIGHLIGHTS:
“There are limitations to human understanding of the universe given our brain capacity….”
lol!! how the fuck did i miss that one?! this is now Rad Pipper Debating Tactic 11: instead of admitting you don’t know, simply invent new physiological limitations for human understanding and apply to the whole human species!
i do love this man, he’s a walking, typing comedy channel.
11 December, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Does anyone get the repeated use of rising sea level graphs by Bolt to prove sea levels are not rising???
11 December, 2008 at 7:51 pm
Sorry Windrider, I refuse to read Bolt. I’d feel like I was being disloyal to RadMatt. And RadMatt knows a lot about loyalty.
11 December, 2008 at 7:59 pm
yes Windrider i do. Perhaps one of bolt’s disciples can advise how that particular graph shows sea levels falling. over the long term.
11 December, 2008 at 9:12 pm
confessions are you talking about the “rate of change”?
I think that the graph is a red herring and shows sea levels rising.
Badbob I respect your loyalty. See if you can get Radmatt to read Blair the bogan for you too, I just went there … right wing yobcore would be the way I describe his blog.
I am now under the impression (after reading Blair) that none of the southerners got the end to the “teachers should not use red pen” debate. It was an old Howard government handout that recommended not using red pens. Anna Bligh was on the news that night calling old Howard government ministers “comrades” for writing the handout :-)
11 December, 2008 at 9:30 pm
Red pen link, it is on page 11 of the pdf file.
Anna Bligh quote:
And which government was responsible for funding and launching this loony, lefty education kit that has attracted so much attention over the past 24 hours? Let me give members a hint. It is dated 30 March 2000. That is right, it was the former Howard government. Who were the Marx and Engels of the Howard socialist government that were so fulsome in their praise of this initiative? None other than comrade Dr Michael Wooldridge and comrade Dr David Kemp—a couple of loony lefties full of kooky, loony and loopy ideas if there ever were any!
Feel free to sling it at Blair et el next time they bring up a snide red pen reference
11 December, 2008 at 10:17 pm
“The best way to understand Bolt’s approach to global warming is to compare him to a creationist. He starts from a predetermined position, then goes in search of evidence to support it.”
Sums up Bolt’s approac to most things he types and cuts and pastes about perfectly. Its all based on ideology.
These clowns like Bolt and his disciples then go on to call themselves “sceptics”.
When their behaviour is about as far away from the meaning of the word as possible.
12 December, 2008 at 4:58 am
The Earths climate mechanism is a very complex `chaotic` system that relies on long time cycles to keep the whole system in balance. Climate change simulations cannot possibly work because, apart from they dont include any Solar interactions with the atmosphere, effects of sunspots on the Sun/ Earth`s magnetic fields, Cosmic ray interaction in and outside the Heliosphere, The effects of areas that are not natual ie Cities. The effect were all energy eventually ends up as heat., but there trying to map the unmapable. And why would they want to do that ?. So that they can tax you till you squeak, then there charge you by the mile as you work yourself into a early grave trying to pay all there taxes, thats if your lucky enough to have a job. Oh and contrary to what the Green Parties told you a decade ago the futures Nuclear.
12 December, 2008 at 6:52 am
So, which are the “unexplained” parts of AGW theory that are likely or might possibly be falsified?
– DeanL
You have it around the wrong way. AGW is a theory of causing climate change. The unexplained parts are within Climate change, which means that as a singular cause of climate change (and there are dozons of things that cause or contribute to climate change), AGW as a cause of current climate change is what is at rick of being falsefied. Meaning that other factors could be the cause of the current climate change cycle.
So, which are the “unexplained” parts of AGW theory that are likely or might possibly be falsified?
– Confessions
If that is the case confessions, why is it that on this blog you are so militant about arguing that AGW is real and you attack those of us that dispute AGW.
You cannot say on the one hand you do not believe that AGW is real because you are not an expert, then on the other hand attack those that dispute AGW.
Gavin, I share your stance, I wonder now if Rad will also call you a believer merely because you haven’t been vigorously debating the topic
– Rob
The difference between you and Gavin is that you attack those of us that dispute AGW. Atleast gavin is willing to state that there is a good posibility that AGW is not happening. You on the other hand lable those of us that dispute it as Deniers. Gavin has not do that.
Hmmmm, let me predict this will go unanswered using RAd Pipper Debating Tactic 3: going home and returning tomorrow as no question was ever answered
– Confessions
Let me wipe that egg off your face Confessions.
12 December, 2008 at 7:17 am
Rad is back, Rad still can’t debate, I attack YOU because you are a troll and an idiot who leaves himself wide open with ridiculous back peddling and lies, I laugh at Bolt because he says there is NO AGW. Conversely I laugh at you because you deny this..
No put up or shut up, link me to where I’ve criticised others who ‘dispute’ AGW? C’mon, links please…..
Also is Gavin a believer in your book? (when his stance is very simnilar to mine)
I’ve asked you to link other evidence when you’ve claimed falsehoods (because you are a LIAR) or shut the fuck up, you’ve done neither!
“Hmmmm, let me predict this will go unanswered using RAd Pipper Debating Tactic 3: going home and returning tomorrow as no question was ever answered”
You came back and made up a load of bullshit as if nothing has happened, confessions is spot on, you’re still a twat!
12 December, 2008 at 7:21 am
One other thing Rad, I can’t recall involving myself in a climate change debate, remember yesterday, your utterly childish accusation that because I don’t vigorously debate AGW/Climate Change…
So I eagerly await your evidence that I attack people (apart from trolls and hack journos) who dispute AGW.
Waiting
waiting
For Rad’s ridiculous attempt to rationalise his latest crass post.
12 December, 2008 at 7:25 am
No put up or shut up, link me to where I’ve criticised others who ‘dispute’ AGW? C’mon, links please…..
There are several hundred posts in this thread Rob, I am not going to waste my time going back through them.
So given what you have said, prove me wrong then. Please prove me wrong.
So you accept that there is a chance that AGW is not the cause of climate change and that the debate is not over.
You came back and made up a load of bullshit as if nothing has happened, confessions is spot on, you’re still a twat!
No. Confessions claimed that I was not going to answer the question from dean. I did answer Dean’s question so Confessions has egg on her face.
12 December, 2008 at 7:28 am
Link?
“So given what you have said, prove me wrong then. Please prove me wrong. ”
You don’t understand debating, you make the claim the onus is on YOU to prove it.
You can’t because you know you’re lying. In fact I question your sanity…
cya fool.
12 December, 2008 at 7:32 am
You don’t understand debating, you make the claim the onus is on YOU to prove it.
You can’t because you know you’re lying. In fact I question your sanity…
cya fool
OK Rob, I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
Now, answer my question.
Do you accept that AGW may not be the cause of climate change and that the debate on AGW is not over?
Come on rob, stop trying to dodge the question. Here is a change for you to prove me wrong.
12 December, 2008 at 7:40 am
Rob if you refuse to answer the question, then by default I am right, you are a AGW believer.
12 December, 2008 at 7:41 am
“Do you accept that AGW may not be the cause of climate change and that the debate on AGW is not over?”
Absolutely. Bolt thinks the debate is over he says there is no AGW. That you still don’t understand my stance on AGW after making it clear previously further bolsters my questioning of your sanity. (or intelligence but you can actually formulate a sentence, so it’s probably your sanity you should think about)
“Come on rob, stop trying to dodge the question”
From the Artful Dodger himself, well, not artful, more like pathetic and clumsy.
12 December, 2008 at 7:43 am
“Rob if you refuse to answer the question, then by default I am right, you are a AGW believer.”
In your warped insane mind, considering I did answer the question I suspect you’ll have to admit you’re wrong.
BadBob is right, you are comedy gold, sad thing for you is I don’t think that’s your intention.
12 December, 2008 at 7:48 am
Bolt thinks the debate is over he says there is no AGW
Rob can you please provide a link to where Bolt states that the debate on AGW is not over?
I ask this because I dispute your accusation. Bolt attacks those like Gore and flannery who demand that the debate is over. Bolt has stated in many columns that those who claim that the debate on climate change is over and that there is a scientific consensus are wrong.
So if you agree that the debate is not over and that there is a chance that there is a chance that AGW is not the cause of Climate change, do you also agree that there are climate scientists out there that dispute AGW?
Also do you condemn people like Gore who claim that the debate on AGW is over? You have attacked Bolt for the same thing, do you apply the same standard to Gore and Flannery?
12 December, 2008 at 7:54 am
I would provide you a link if you were a decent and honest debater, however you’re likely to claim that Bolt was being ’sarcastic’ or made a ‘typo’ or even using ’slang’, so to be honest I’m happy to cede to you and let you think you’ve won the debate after all I really think you have issues with sanity (or you’re just taking the piss) I think I’ll opt to do work today rather than waste any more time on you (even if it is entertaining)
So, yes Rad, you win. farewell….
12 December, 2008 at 8:04 am
“You have it around the wrong way. AGW is a theory of causing climate change. The unexplained parts are within Climate change, which means that as a singular cause of climate change (and there are dozons of things that cause or contribute to climate change), AGW as a cause of current climate change is what is at rick of being falsefied. Meaning that other factors could be the cause of the current climate change cycle.”
RadMatt, the clarity of your prose would have George Orwell weeping with envy.
12 December, 2008 at 8:08 am
“I did answer Dean’s question so Confessions has egg on her face.”
ahhhh, rad’s back! i practically dared you to come back to answer and now that you have, you can respond to your idiocy from yesterday:
“I have already stated that Hamas is hindering any chance Palestine has of being able to move forward and become prosperous in the future.” – RadP
no Rad. what you said was:
“the Palestinians are not locked up in ghetto’s. They have every opportunity to turn their country into a prosperous nation like any other”
you cannot have it both ways. either palestinians are to blame for their own predicament (which is what your original statement implies), or HAMAS is holding them back from this “prosperous nation” you envisage (your new goalpost-shifted stance). Which is it?
12 December, 2008 at 8:10 am
Jesus.
I take a day off and look at the mess.
I just don’t have enough “emotional loyalty”.
12 December, 2008 at 8:19 am
you cannot have it both ways. either Palestinians are to blame for their own predicament (which is what your original statement implies), or HAMAS is holding them back from this “prosperous nation” you envisage (your new goalpost-shifted stance). Which is it
Well the Palestinian people are partly to blame as they elected Hamas into government. But the bulk of the blame has to go with Hamas that has continued their pathological campaign to annihilate Israel.
BTW, Palestinians are not locked up in Ghettos by Israel, because they are not landlocked by Israel. What about Egypt and Jordan? What about all the other middle eastern countries that claim to be strong allies of the Palestinian territories?
12 December, 2008 at 8:36 am
good lord rad, you’d make a gymnast proud.
“What about Egypt and Jordan?”
LOOK OVER THERE!!!
“Rob can you please provide a link to where Bolt states that the debate on AGW is not over?”
bolt frequently says on insiders “global warming that doesn’t exist”. the most memorable occasion from my recollection was when he said it to annabelle crabbe and got slapped down by her over his stupid interpretations of those 7 graphs. he then ran back to his blog and whinged about being attacked. he is a liar and a fraud and that day he got outed big time!
12 December, 2008 at 8:38 am
As everybody with a bit of knowledge here would understand (So that excludes the idiot who calls themsef Rad Pipper), when Egypt recently allowed supplies and people through after Hamas breached the wall (which imo is a legitimate action after all Hamas are the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people —–> “Israel demanded Egypt reseal the border and launched air strikes against the Gazan half of Rafah overnight on January 24, killing Mohammed Abu Harb, the commander of Hamas’s military there”
The reason for the quotes is because I’m lazy and I cut and paste that bit from Wiki, unlike others who are totally dishonest with their plagiarism…
Also from Wiki:
“The United Nations Human Rights Council condemned Israel for the 15th time in less than two years on January 24, calling the blockade collective punishment.[5] However, the proceedings were boycotted by Israel and the United States.”
I wonder if our resident idiot is even aware of the US Veto history at the UNSC?
12 December, 2008 at 8:39 am
“good lord rad, you’d make a gymnast proud.
“What about Egypt and Jordan?”
LOOK OVER THERE!!!”
Hey confessions, I’ve already spanked the stupid little troll on this too. I wonder why he ever raises issues concerning Israel and the Palestinians, he just does not have a clue….
12 December, 2008 at 8:46 am
LOOK OVER THERE!!!
You stupid fool confessions. There is no look over there. I was addressing the statement.
bolt frequently says on insiders “global warming that doesn’t exist
He has never said that confessions. He’s exact words are; The planet has not warmed since 1998.
Bolt’s argument has been the same all along. Bolt has never disputed climate change, what he disputes is AGW as a cause.
12 December, 2008 at 8:49 am
“Hey confessions, I’ve already spanked the stupid little troll on this too.”
I know Rob, call me masochistic, but i just like watching you do it…. ;-o)
12 December, 2008 at 8:49 am
“Well the Palestinian people are partly to blame as they elected Hamas into government.”
And we are partly to blame for the years of inaction on climate change, the suffering caused to refugees, the squandering of the economic bonanza of the China boom on stupid handouts to the middle class, the persecution of welfare recipients, the transformation of workplaces into mini-autocracies with no union representation, and the demonisation of ethnic minorities becaue we elected Howard into government.
12 December, 2008 at 8:52 am
And we are partly to blame for the years of inaction on climate change
In what way Badbod? Are you suggesting that Australia is to blame for future climate change because of Australia’s inaction?
12 December, 2008 at 9:00 am
“what he disputes is AGW as a cause”
Andrew Bolt has dismissed it, Rad’s command of English is utterly pathetic he is lying little troll! Dismissed and Dispute have different meanings, I realise that this is difficult for Rad to understand.
Radisms:
Palestinians have a country
Palestinians are not locked in ghettos
‘Jist’ is slang, it means the same as ‘gist’ thus there is no such word as ‘gist’
Andrew Bolt is a sceptic not a denier.
RobJ is a believer
and it goes on and on…. Lies, lies, lies!!!! (or insanity but the shit Rad spouts is untrue most of the time)
12 December, 2008 at 9:02 am
“He has never said that confessions. He’s exact words are; The planet has not warmed since 1998.”
yes he has rad. but you are also correct that he also states the planet has not warmed since 1998.
“Bolt has never disputed climate change, what he disputes is AGW as a cause.”
so now you do agree that he is a denialist. hallelulah! we can all go home now.
12 December, 2008 at 9:12 am
yes he has rad. but you are also correct that he also states the planet has not warmed since 1998.
OK confessions. Can you please provide a link to where Bolt states that global warming does not exist.
so now you do agree that he is a denialist. hallelulah! we can all go home now
What are you talking about Confessions? Bolt has never disputed Climate Change, he has only disputed that AGW is the cause.
For starters there is no such thing as denial when it comes to scientific theory. You can only deny something that is fact. AGW is not a fact, it is a scientific theory that is still being debated. Especially given that it is all based on computer modelling.
12 December, 2008 at 9:22 am
confessions, just tell the troll to piss off, let him think he’s won, it matters little considering everything is here in black and white for all to see.
12 December, 2008 at 9:24 am
confessions, just tell the troll to piss off, let him think he’s won, it matters little considering everything is here in black and white for all to see.
If confessions cannot produce evidence that Bolt has said these things then she is lying.
Now’s your time to set the record straight Confessions. You are so quick to label other people liars for not producing links and evidence. Now’s your chance.
12 December, 2008 at 9:38 am
“OK confessions. Can you please provide a link to where Bolt states that global warming does not exist.”
Rad the last thing i have time or desire for today is to scroll through transcrips of Insiders in order to prove something i already know is true. i’ve heard him say it, end of. but if it helps you believe that you’re recovering your shattered reputation by thinking i’m lying then fine. go ahead.
12 December, 2008 at 9:40 am
Rad the last thing i have time or desire for today is to scroll through transcrips of Insiders in order to prove something i already know is true. i’ve heard him say it, end of. but if it helps you believe that you’re recovering your shattered reputation by thinking i’m lying then fine. go ahead
You are lying confessions because I watch insiders on a regular basis and he has never said that.
12 December, 2008 at 9:48 am
“In what way Badbod? Are you suggesting that Australia is to blame for future climate change because of Australia’s inaction?”
You don’t read very carefully do you RadMatt? My whole point was that we (as an electorate) have to take responsibility for the deep shit Howard left this country in because we elected him, just as you argued that the Palestinians have to take responsibility for electing Hamas.
This is not an invitation for you to go off on a tangent defending Howard. It is a follow-up to your argument about Hamas.
Is this clear?
12 December, 2008 at 9:51 am
“You are lying confessions because I watch insiders on a regular basis and he has never said that.”
You might have missed one RadMatt.
12 December, 2008 at 9:51 am
yes he has rad. if you were honest you’d admit that bolt is not a sceptic but is an outright denialist. but you can’t admit that you are wrong, so you choose to make it about me. pathetic. child.
12 December, 2008 at 9:55 am
RadMatt is not a liar, he just forgets things.
12 December, 2008 at 9:56 am
Confessions, here is proof that Bolt has never said that global warming never existed;
This is from his column, referenced on this blog called Seven Graphs.
Bolt says;
THESE are the seven graphs that should make the Rudd Government feel sick.
These are the seven graphs that should make you ask: What? Has global warming now stopped?
Look for yourself. They show that the world hasn’t warmed for a decade, and has even cooled for several years.
Now for someone who you claim says that global warming never existed, why is he saying that warming has stopped?!
But bolt goes on to say;
But I repeat: the world may yet warm again, and soon, although scientists at Leibnitz Institute and Max Planck Institute last month predicted it won’t for at least another decade. If at all, say solar experts worried by a lack of sun spots.
But even if none of my graphs disproves the theory that man is causing dangerous warming, they should at least make you pause.
They should at least make you open to other theories of climate change, like that of Dr Henrik Svensmark, head of Denmark’s Centre for Sun-Climate Research, who thinks changes in cosmic rays, which affect clouds, may explain much of the recent warming. And now the cooling, too.
So no where does Bolt say global warming never existed. So you lied confessions. Plain and simple.
12 December, 2008 at 9:56 am
You have it around the wrong way. AGW is a theory of causing climate change. The unexplained parts are within Climate change, which means that as a singular cause of climate change (and there are dozons of things that cause or contribute to climate change), AGW as a cause of current climate change is what is at rick of being falsefied. Meaning that other factors could be the cause of the current climate change cycle.
Contorted rubbish.
AGW as a cause of current climate change is what is at rick of being falsefied.
What scientific aspects, RadP? That CO2 is a greenhouse gas? That CO2 isn’t increasing in the atmosphere? That the atmosphere isn’t warming? That it will stop warming because of a rebalancing of climate equilibrium?
What aspects could be falsified and how, RadP?
12 December, 2008 at 10:01 am
Oh I forgot to bring your attention to this from Bolt’s collumn;
<They should at least make you open to other theories of climate change, like that of Dr Henrik Svensmark, head of Denmark’s Centre for Sun-Climate Research, who thinks changes in cosmic rays, which affect clouds, may explain much of the recent warming. And now the cooling, too.
Oh dear, confessions. Do you need me to wipe the rest of that egg off your face?!
12 December, 2008 at 10:04 am
“So no where does Bolt say global warming never existed. So you lied confessions. Plain and simple.”
Rad, i thought i was very clear that i had heard him say on insiders “warming that doesn’t exist.” of course he would never commit to such a stance in writing. if you aren’t going to read my posts then please don’t bother responding to them because i’m getting very very pissed at you always attributing things to me that i have not said.
12 December, 2008 at 10:06 am
What aspects could be falsified and how, RadP
That the current theory that increased levels of CO2 in out atmosphere is causing climate change.
No one is disputing that CO2 levels are increasing, no one is disputing that we have experienced climate change.
What is being disputed is that the increased levels of CO2 in our atmosphere causes climate change and that runaway climate change due to CO2 will happen.
This is what is open to falsification. We still do not fully understand climate change and there environmental factors that cause climate change.
12 December, 2008 at 10:07 am
Rad, i thought i was very clear that i had heard him say on insiders “warming that doesn’t exist.” of course he would never commit to such a stance in writing.
Then you need to produce the evidence Confessions. If you can’t then you are lying. I have produced evidence to say that he did not say that, now you need to put your money where your mouth is.
12 December, 2008 at 10:08 am
RadMatt, Bolt is a creationist-style true believer in the dogma of endless economic progress. As such, he is temperamentally ill-disposed towards anything that might get in the way of that. That is why he doesn’t want us to do anything to curb carbon emissions. It is also why he is prepared to believe anyone who supports his anti-AGW position, including (but not confined to) unqualified cranks and those with a Right-wing political axe to grind, against the overwhelming weight of opinion in the field of climate science.
As for us having a debate here about the technical details of the argument about whether global warming is happening, whether it is caused by human activity and so on, it’s pretty bloody pointless isn’t it? None of us is qualified to make judgements about this, and neither is Bolt. I know you had a fantastic education and you did two years of applied physics, but you still have only a very tenuous grasp of this issue (as we all do) and it’s time you admitted it.
12 December, 2008 at 10:11 am
“Then you need to produce the evidence Confessions. If you can’t then you are lying.”
No, there’s a third possibility RadMatt – an honest mistake. You should be an expert on every variety of mistake, so please allow the possibility of an honest one. And how the hell do you expect her to produce the episode of Insiders where he is alleged to have said that anyway?
12 December, 2008 at 10:16 am
The climate models do not suggest “runaway climate change” – at least not out to the time lengths that they are extraploated with confidence, and so you may as well do away with that little extremist strawman.
The best climate models we have, predict that CO2 forcing will raise temperatures within a given error band. The models have been picked apart and analysed for years and no scientist has been able to come up with a scientific paper that proves that the model predictions and the associated errors are incorrect. Undoubtedly they can be improved by increasing the dynamic influences that aren’t well modelled – but all this will do is reduce the error band.
The worrying aspect is that, the scientific process could well lead to the determination that climate warming could even be worse than current research suggests.
12 December, 2008 at 10:17 am
As for us having a debate here about the technical details of the argument about whether global warming is happening, whether it is caused by human activity and so on, it’s pretty bloody pointless isn’t it? None of us is qualified to make judgements about this, and neither is Bolt.
But it is a debate that we have to have. Our government is wanting to enact policy to combat AGW that has implications for us all. As voters we need to debate whether this action by our government is really necessary. Especially when Rudd is using a fear campaign to sell his Climate Change policy.
We are being told that we must accept higher energy prices because of AGW. We are being told that if we don’t pay more for our energy then numerous disasters from rising sea levels to savage droughts will affect us.
Well we should just sit down and accept what our governments say. We should be debating the merits of what the government is claiming and that means having a real debate in society about AGW and climate change policy.
12 December, 2008 at 10:19 am
“If you can’t then you are lying.”
Rad, you are the only one on this blog who lies. get used to it.
“None of us is qualified to make judgements about this, and neither is Bolt. ”
but Rad & bolt will continue to argue till their blue in the face that there is no AGW. those of us who are more honest are willing to accept that we do not have the answers and therefore simply do not know.
“And how the hell do you expect her to produce the episode of Insiders where he is alleged to have said that anyway?