Guest post by Toaf
Residents of Gaza currently face acute food shortages. Food is running out, transporting it is becoming more difficult, and farming is coming to a stand still. And so people are devising new strategies to feed their families. Some are even smuggling livestock into Gaza via underground tunnels.
How does a right-wing News Ltd blogger and “journalist” react to this situation? Criticism of Israeli policies is not an option, and nor is any depiction of Palestinians which may humanise them. The commenters won’t have that. So how to respond?
Got it! Bestiality jokes! Those Palestinians and their goat-shagging ways! Hilarious! The commenters will love it! And not for the first time. Well done, tim (sic).
221 Comments
12 January, 2009 at 7:43 am
nice post Toaf
everything really needs to be divided clearly between good guys and bad guys for ole timmeh to understand doesn’t it? any thought that the gaza conflict could be more complicated is shouted down with “Jew hater” or “terrorist supporter”
12 January, 2009 at 8:03 am
Typical ignorant wingnut reaction – laugh at others misfortune. Don’t empathise, take then piss.
I wonder if Tim Blair and his ignorant fans think it’s funny that over 200 children have been killed in the IDF’s latest criminal action?
12 January, 2009 at 8:37 am
I knew timmy would eventually find some facile way of covering the conflict. and the comments just show how little his sheep actually think about anything other than trying to out-do each other for who can post the most ignorant, bigotted rubbish.
the more you see tim blairs contribution to journalism the more obvious it is of who the target audience is for Big Brother, the Biggest Loser and today tonight: no thought required.
12 January, 2009 at 8:44 am
“the target audience is for Big Brother, the Biggest Loser and today tonight: no thought required.”
confessions, you sound like an elitist. ;o)
12 January, 2009 at 9:23 am
The number one rule of a being a cheerleader for the War On Terror is “Never Mention The Civilians Our Side Kills”.
12 January, 2009 at 9:27 am
yes RobJ, but its true though.
and I just LOL at the responses to Toafs comment. how terrible that someone should express indignation at bigotted racist comments! talk about deluded.
12 January, 2009 at 9:33 am
“talk about deluded.”….ignorant, insane, hateful etc etc.
12 January, 2009 at 10:04 am
actually if you want to see another know-nothing reporting on the war check out theage.com.au and the story about joe-the-plumber as a rookie correspondent in Israel. yikes!!
12 January, 2009 at 11:48 am
Yeah, I saw that, an idiot adored by other idiots.
He’s right about people in Israelis not being able to get soap in there eyes in the shower due to Palestinian rocket attacks but I doubt he has a clue how hard Palestinians in Gaza are doing it after being held under siege for 18 months and then having the bejeezus bombed out of them ie Your general Israeli’s problems are minuscule when compared to their Palestinian neighbours.
12 January, 2009 at 12:38 pm
Confessions I wonder if Bolty and Blair will link to Joe the Plumber at Pajamas Media after their vigorous defense of him. Maybe between digging his own tunnel and scouting farmyards for new girlfriends Tim could send him some sheep shagger jokes and help out Joe’s fledgeling career.
12 January, 2009 at 2:43 pm
why link to him when they can let him do guest posts. after all it’s the know-nothing joe the plumbers of the world who appeal to the blair and bolt sheep.
12 January, 2009 at 7:29 pm
The irony of this site berating Blair for juvenile or vulgar posts!
Listen to yourselves, my little hypocritical friends.
12 January, 2009 at 8:13 pm
Tom glad to see you admit that Blair posters do juvenile and vulgar posts.
12 January, 2009 at 8:13 pm
Yes, you should all stop making fun of people who make fun of starving children.
12 January, 2009 at 10:54 pm
from the joe-the-plumber article in The Age, and kind of echoed in comments on timmy’s goat post:
“Hamas hides among its own people,” causing civilian casualties, he added. “But I hear no cry out from the international community.”
I’m sure Germany felt the same way about the blitz: if only Mr Churchill and his cabinet got the fuck out of london and went to a remote field somewhere, 40,000 civillians needn’t be killed unnecesarily. Oh and joe, was it terrorists or terrified civillians who were hiding in the UN school that got bombed?
the blitz was supposed to erode the morale of the brits and force them into surrender. if anything the bombings strengthened the resolve of the nation which united behind Churchill in fighting back against hitler. Churchill incidentally is renowned for his leadership and inspiration during WW2.
I think israel have this wrong. instead of making life hell for ordinary, innocent gazans they need to do the adult thing and enter into constructive negotiations with hamas about creation of a palestinian state and ending occupation – surely that’s why hamas were elected by a majority in the first place? shitting on gazans, as it did with londoners, will only strengthen the resolve of the people and further unite them behind their elected representatives.
P.S. timmy identifies the photo on his post as a goat. you’d think with all the bleaters on his blog he’d know what a sheep looks like by now. ;p
12 January, 2009 at 11:28 pm
Actually following from my P.S I think i’ve figured this out.
Isn’t there something in the bible about goats are evil and sheep are good? therefore timmy would see a palestinian with a ruminant mammal and instantly think GOAT! because all palestinians are evil. if it was a christian he would be holding a sheep. sheep are good. christians are good. I get it now, these idiots are more predictable than T20 cricket.
13 January, 2009 at 6:46 am
“surely that’s why hamas were elected by a majority in the first place?”
I would suggest that Hamas won power because they provide health, social and education services among other things, and they aren’t corrupt and in Israel’s pocket like Mahmoud Abbas and Fatah.
Otherwise confessions I believe you are spot on! If anything Israel’s actions will ultimately strengthen Hamas just as it did Hezbollah in Lebanon after Israel’s catastrophic intervention there.
For Israelis to believe that Palestinians are going to blame Hamas for Israel’s actions is insane, some people cannot learn from history and are doomed to make the same mistakes (even though we’re talking recent history (2006 Lebanon)) Some people think there is a military solution for everything, they are wrong!
13 January, 2009 at 7:15 am
Joe the plumber is on the radio, what a jerk, he has a warped sense of perspective, understands that Israeli’s are being terrorised by rockets (fair enough) but has no empathy whatsoever for the Gazans who are now and throughout recent history suffering magnitudes more at the hands of the IDF and their hi-tech arsenal courtesy of the US.
The utter ignorance of many of the pro-Israeli camp, scrub that, the utter ignorance of western citizens and apathy will ensure that Israel will be allowed to continue their killing for many years to come.
13 January, 2009 at 7:52 am
would suggest that Hamas won power because they provide health, social and education services among other things, and they aren’t corrupt and in Israel’s pocket like Mahmoud Abbas and Fatah
LOL OMG Rob are you serious? All Hamas has done for the Palestinian people since winning power is kill their political opponents by marching them out of their homes and offices and executing them on the streets in front of crowds or throwing them off the roofs of buildings.
Rob did you learn all your facts from the Hamas school of propaganda?
13 January, 2009 at 7:56 am
The utter ignorance of many of the pro-Israeli camp, scrub that, the utter ignorance of western citizens and apathy will ensure that Israel will be allowed to continue their killing for many years to come.
This statement of yours Rob has the stench of Hamas propaganda and hatred. I suppose you looked the other way when Hamas goes on their little killing sprees. Whether it is sending their own children across the boarder as suicide bombers or if they are executing their Palestinian political opponents on the streets of Gaza.
13 January, 2009 at 8:07 am
Can anyone tell me how it is that there is supposedly no food in Gaza, but Hamas have a seemingly limitless supply of small-arms ammunition and missiles for their foreign made AK47’s and rocket launchers ? Also how is it that Israel has Gaza ‘under siege’ when there is a shared border with Egypt — why aren’t the Egyptians helping their Arab neighbours ? There’s no doubt that the Hamas propaganda machine works a treat here in the West.
As for the number of casualties amongst civilians, firstly are these numbers coming from the same sources that claimed a “massacre” and “genocide” in Jenin, with initially thousands, and then 500 plus dead, those claims were discredited and the current ones should therefore be viewed with scepticism until independent analysis can be made, secondly, civilian casualties are inevitable when you have cowards hiding behind them while they do their shooting. Perhaps this link regarding Hamas’ attitude towards its civilians could be educational for some http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y
Some social welfare organisation.
The other thing I haven’t seen here is any criticism of the side that actually started the current hostilities by breaking a ceasefire — a breach incidentally that involved Hamas’ standard practice of deliberately firing rockets at civilian targets.
I’m damn sure that if someone was continually firing rockets at us we would expect our government to respond with everything at it’s disposal. This bleating about so few Israeli casualties compared to so many Palestinian is, frankly, crap — I’d like someone to show me where the rule is written that in war both sides should sustain equivalent losses.
13 January, 2009 at 8:24 am
“The other thing I haven’t seen here is any criticism of the side that actually started the current hostilities by breaking a ceasefire —”
Sucked in by Western leaders propoganda GavinM, the ceasefire expired, Hamas chose not to renew it. Why would they when you consider that Israel laying siege to Gaza for 18 months means that Israel broke the ceasefire from day one. But yeah, no-one cares when Israel breaches the rules or UNSC resolutions, it only matters when arabs do.
“I’d like someone to show me where the rule is written that in war both sides should sustain equivalent losses.”
Then why whinge about Hamas methods? I’m sure if the US kitted out Hamas with F-16s and White phosphor bombs then we’d have some equivalence.
13 January, 2009 at 8:31 am
Why would they when you consider that Israel laying siege to Gaza for 18 months means that Israel broke the ceasefire from day one. But yeah, no-one cares when Israel breaches the rules or UNSC resolutions, it only matters when arabs do
What a load of crap Rob. As Gavin has pointed out, they share a boarder with Egypt.
Also how is it that Israel has Gaza ‘under siege’ when there is a shared border with Egypt — why aren’t the Egyptians helping their Arab neighbours ?
Rob why is it that you always dodge this point?
Also if Hamas can get weapons smuggled into Gaza why do they have problems with food and how can they be under seige when it is so easy for them to get weapons smuggled in?
13 January, 2009 at 8:45 am
“The other thing I haven’t seen here is any criticism of the side that actually started the current hostilities”
actually there has been criticsm on an earlier thread, with the acknowledgement that the issue is far more complex than just good vs bad, wrong vs right, black vs white that you get on other certain blogs.
13 January, 2009 at 8:55 am
Gavin and Rad, you seem to be suggesting that the food shortage in Gaza is a fabrication. The link in this post describes the shortage and its causes. Rather than asserting that it’s all a lie, can you provide some evidence of your claim that Gazans have enough food and that the food shortage is propaganda?
13 January, 2009 at 8:56 am
actually there has been criticsm*sic on an earlier thread, with the acknowledgement that the issue is far more complex than just good vs bad, wrong vs right, black vs white that you get on other certain blogs.
LOL maybe someone should tell Rob as he seems to think that Hamas can do no wrong as highlighted by this reply from Rob to Gavin
Sucked in by Western leaders propoganda*sic GavinM,
According to Rob, any criticism from Gavin about Hamas is caused by Western leaders propaganda .
13 January, 2009 at 8:56 am
I wonder if these people who ask about Egypt realise what happened when Hamas breached the border with Egypt,? How Dr Rice and the IDF demanded that Egypt immediately reseal the border. I’ve mentioned this before.
Egypt is addicted to the $2.5 Billion US aid.
13 January, 2009 at 9:01 am
Gavin and Rad, you seem to be suggesting that the food shortage in Gaza is a fabrication.
I am not saying it is a fabrication, I am criticising the blaming of Israel for it. Especially when you consider that gaza shares a boarder with Egypt and Hamas are able to smuggle enormous amounts of weapons into Gaza.
Rather than asserting that it’s all a lie
No one is saying that it is a lie, rather who is the real cause and is to blame. If Hamas have no problems getting endless amounts of weapons why do they have problems getting food for their people? This suggests that Hamas’ priorities are not with the welfare of it’s own people rather it’s with satisfying their own pathological hatred
13 January, 2009 at 9:03 am
Speaking of Egypt, it’s worth noting that despite the government’s reluctance to act against the interests of its ally, the US, the people of Egypt – particularly the unions – are supporting the Palestinians in Gaza in any way they can. A team of doctors equipped with supplies will enter Gaza this week, for example.
13 January, 2009 at 9:04 am
How Dr Rice and the IDF demanded that Egypt immediately reseal the border. I’ve mentioned this before.
Then explain Rob, why Hamas doesn’t smuggle food into gaza like they do weapons?
13 January, 2009 at 9:04 am
Of course, after moaning about how Egyptians aren’t doing anything to help Gazans, the right will then accuse those who do offer assistance of being terrorist supporters.
13 January, 2009 at 9:05 am
Rad: “Then explain Rob, why Hamas doesn’t smuggle food into gaza like they do weapons?”
Err, that’s what the livestock is for. Food security. See original post (and Blair’s post).
13 January, 2009 at 9:10 am
Guy’s Rad is a dishonest troll, I urge you not to respond. Rad actually believes that Palestine has a state and has ‘every opportunity’.
13 January, 2009 at 9:25 am
Guy’s Rad is a dishonest troll, I urge you not to respond. Rad actually believes that Palestine has a state and has ‘every opportunity’
No Rob. I have argued that Hamas prevents the people of Palestine from moving forward into a prosperous future. As long as Hamas continues to place the destruction of Israel about the basic human needs of the people they govern then the people of Gaza will always suffer.
You are the one being the dishonest troll Rob.
13 January, 2009 at 9:34 am
Egypt is addicted to the $2.5 Billion US aid.
Explain why is it that Egypt must rely on aid from the US when middle eastern countries like Qatar, UAE and Saudi Arabia are some of the wealthiest countries in the world?
I’m sorry Rob but you are talking shit.
13 January, 2009 at 10:55 am
This is not about Egypt, or goats. This is about an Australian ally slaughtering hundreds of civilians as part of the War On Terror.
The UN now claims : “over 40 per cent of the nearly 900 Palestinians killed in the Israeli offensive, and almost half of the 3,860 wounded, were women and children.”
This is terrorism, on a scale rarely seen from even Al Qaeda.
“Why do they hate us?”
Why indeed?
13 January, 2009 at 11:00 am
I’m interested to hear some responses to the Hamas leaders’ speech that I linked…Certainly didn’t sound like the words we’d expect to hear from someone concerned about the welfare of his people…Just more of the extremist insanity that Hamas has always displayed, how anyone can believe that Israel could ever negotiate with the sort of lunacy displayed by this man just staggers me.
“Then why whinge about Hamas methods?..”
I’m not whinging about Hamas’ methods Rob, I’m pointing out that they deliberately target civilians, something that you readily criticise Israel for, but never seem to mention when it’s Hamas or Hezbollah, which is their standard tactic. It seems that you just expect Israel to put up with these rocket attacks and not respond at all — sorry, but in the real world no country is going to do that, I suppose you think because it’s terrorism it’s a “police matter”.
“I wonder if these people who ask about Egypt realise what happened when Hamas breached the border with Egypt,? How Dr Rice and the IDF demanded that Egypt immediately reseal the border. I’ve mentioned this before.”
Umm, sorry Rob, but you’re wrong — the border was sealed after an agreement between Hamas and Egypt…Interesting don’t you think http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/gaza-border-with-egypt-sealed/2008/02/04/1201973773530.html
“Sucked in by Western leaders propoganda GavinM, the ceasefire expired, Hamas chose not to renew it.”
Ok, Hamas chose not to renew the ceasefire, so they open fire — using their own civilians as human shields — on Israeli civilians and then go running to the International Community when Israel responds — so they are cowards as well as psychotics. Nice folks you choose to support.
I still haven’t seen any response to the question why it is so easy for an organisation that has supposedly been under siege to acquire weapons. It appears I’m not the only one sucked in by propaganda.
“I’m sure if the US kitted out Hamas with F-16s and White phosphor bombs then we’d have some equivalence.”
What’s your point here Rob, that Israel should only respond using the same weaponry as that used by Hamas ? And please provide evidence of Israel using phosphorus bombs against civilian targets in Gaza.
13 January, 2009 at 11:12 am
I’m interested to hear some responses to the Hamas leaders’ speech that I linked
Don’t hold your breath Gavin. They won’t respond. They will do everything in their power to deflect attention away from the actions of Hamas. They are only interested in using this conflict to benefit their own extreme left, anti American ideology.
13 January, 2009 at 11:15 am
Hello Toaf,
I’m also not suggesting that the claims of a food shortage is a lie, I’m asking the question why is there a food shortage, but no shortage of weaponry. Unfortuneately when there is a state of war, one of the first commodities to suffer in the affected area is food.
We therefore should be asking what should be the priorities of this so-called “Social Welfare” orientated government that is in power in Gaza ? I would have thought that feeding its population and attempting to grow a sustainable economy would be more constructive than restarting a war in an attempt to fulfill its lunatic agenda of destroying the Israeli nation.
13 January, 2009 at 11:18 am
Egyptian and Hamas forces have closed the Gaza border after reportedly agreeing to control the frontier blown open by militants nearly two weeks ago in a bid to break an Israeli blockade
There goes your theory Rob. Are you now willing to condemn Egypt and Hamas for the supposed seige of Gaza ?!
So much for your theory on Egypt and the $2B US aid causing the closure of the Egypt/gaza border.
hamas are doing this to their own people and then have the nerve to blame Israel.
13 January, 2009 at 11:21 am
Darryl,
How is this a continuation of the war on terror — Hamas opened fire on Israel without warning from behind human shields…Israel has responded.
13 January, 2009 at 11:52 am
Notice how Rob goes silent when proven wrong. So typical.
13 January, 2009 at 12:05 pm
Rad, Rob may be “silent” because he is off line.
13 January, 2009 at 12:20 pm
GavinM, so you’re saying this is not a part of the War On Terror? Aren’t Hamas terrorists? Or do you prefer the negotiation-friendly new Bush & Obama term “extremists”?
You and Rad are defending the slaughter of civilians by Israel by refusing to condemn those actions, or even acknowledge that these attacks have killed and wounded more children than Hamas fighters.
And you’d have to be pretty ignorant to not know by now that Israel has admitted to breaking the ceasefire in early November.
Try not to let your insipid hatred get in the way of the facts.
13 January, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Rad, Rob may be “silent” because he is off line
Fair enough. But I do hope that Rob addresses the issues put to him by myself & Gavin in regards to the errors in his argument.
13 January, 2009 at 12:29 pm
You and Rad are defending the slaughter of civilians by Israel by refusing to condemn those actions, or even acknowledge that these attacks have killed and wounded more children than Hamas fighters.
You are defending the inhumane and in excusable treatment of the Palestinians in Gaza by the pathological behaviour of Hamas. Hamas are partly responsible for the closure of the egypt/gaza boarder. Hamas are also responsible for using their people as human shields and refusing to agree to a renewed cease fire.
Add to this the blood thirsty slaughter by Hamas of their political opponents in Gaza when they came to power in 2006.
Why is it that you refuse to condemn these actions?
13 January, 2009 at 12:52 pm
Hello Darryl,
As I said, this is a response by Israel to an act of war against its sovereign territory by an organisation that has sworn to destroy it, a situation that it has been dealing with since 1948– sorry, can’t see any relationship to the war on terror here. Israel’s fight against terrorism pre-dates the war on terror by a long, long time.
I’m not defending the “wholesale slaughter” of civilians at all, what I’m doing is blaming the people that are truly responsible for their deaths — those who chose to use them as human shields to hide behind.
On the subject of civilian casualties, as I said originally, after the claims that were made by Palestinian “authorities” about deaths in Jenin, I find myself sceptical of real numbers until an independent assesment is made, it would probably be wise for our media and others to do the same.
If we want to talk about who originally broke the ceasefire — I would suggest that Hamas did that much earlier than November through the smuggling of weapons into Gaza. Also Hamas were digging a tunnel towards Israel during this ceasefire period, why would they be doing so other than as preparation for raids in the future ?
“Try not to let your insipid hatred get in the way of the facts”
Exactly Darryl.
13 January, 2009 at 12:58 pm
“Rad, Rob may be “silent” because he is off line.”
Toaf, I’m online but I’m busy, besides I won’t be responding to Rad, he is a troll, and an idiot (he thinks that $2.5 billion in military aid to Egypt is something to be sniffed at, clearly unaware that Egypt is the second largest recipient after Israel, he probably didn’t realise that I was referring to .mil aid, but what the hell, he consistently displays his utter ignorance on the subject at hand) .
I will have a read of Gavin when I get a chance and probably have a response, he’s worth debating with, he reads lots, for Rad to expect that he will get a response though is utterly laughable, he’s an imbecile, I’m a time poor person, I wont be wasting any on the retarded troll!
“And you’d have to be pretty ignorant to not know by now that Israel has admitted to breaking the ceasefire in early November.”
In all fairness our leaders consistently tel half truths on the news, they say ad nauseum that Hamas broke the ceasefire, they consistently ignore any breaches by Israel, even breaches of UNSC resolutions, the MSM is rather pathetic and helps proliferate our leaders half-truths. But you’re right, the mainstream view on the Israel/Palestine issue is based on ignorance.
13 January, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Criticising the dead-children littered attacks by an Australian ally in the War On Terror doesn’t make you pro-Hamas.
Try to raise the quality of your debate above “Lefties Love Hamas” please or you will be ignored as boring, cliched trolls.
13 January, 2009 at 1:04 pm
“— those who chose to use them as human shields to hide behind”
I’ll check your youtube vid later but I’m wondering how on earth you can be in Gaza and not be near civilians? It’s one of the most densely populated place on the planet. I hear the IDF and Israeli spokespeople constantly harping on about Hamas hiding amongst civilians, as if Israel gives a shit, they’ve bombed three UN schools, the University, they claim everything in Gaza is terrorist infrastructure. They claimed that they were fired on from one of the UN schools, later admitted there attack was baseless.
The Israeli spokesman on the news last night was describing Hamas’ ‘vast military infrastructure’ what a joke, this is from the nation that has the latest and greatest .mil equipment laid on them by the American tax payer, Israel without a doubt is the military power in the ME, there .mil infrastructure is vast, Hamas’ isn’t.
13 January, 2009 at 1:08 pm
“Criticising the dead-children littered attacks by an Australian ally in the War On Terror doesn’t make you pro-Hamas.”
“You’re either with us or with the terrorists”
Black and white world for some people. All the stuff I’ve written about Hamas is true, same for what I’ve written about Fatah, so if I mention facts like Hamas is the social, education & health provider in Gaza I get accused of spreading Hamas propaganda, by idiots and trolls who’s posts are filled with little more than Boltesque empty rhetoric!
13 January, 2009 at 1:31 pm
“Criticising the dead-children littered attacks by an Australian ally in the War On Terror doesn’t make you pro-Hamas.
Try to raise the quality of your debate above “Lefties Love Hamas” please or you will be ignored as boring, cliched trolls.”
Sorry ? I must have missed something..I can’t recall saying Lefties love Hamas, nor can I recall accusing you of being pro-Hamas.
My responses to you have been to say that this is not a part of the War on Terror, you’re repeating it doesn’t make it so, and that given the fact that Palestinian authorities have a track record of vastly exaggerating deaths, we should perhaps wait before we believe everything they tell us without any independent verification.
Now please try giving an opinion about a government that is supposedly concerned about the welfare of its people, deliberately using women and children as human shields from behind which to launch rocket attacks.
The fact that Israel is an ally of Australia, has exactly what to do with this discussion ?
13 January, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Gavin, I have heard this accusation about human shields quite often but have not seen any evidence of it. Do you know of any?
When the school was bombed last week, presumably because it was being used by militants, the Israeli government resisted calls for an independent inquiry. It said that all of the witnesses would lie anyway.
13 January, 2009 at 1:43 pm
Hello Toaf,
Of course the witnesses would lie, do you really think that Palestinians living under Hamas would say anything that goes against what Hamas wants them to say ?
What do you think their life expectancy would be after doing so ?
13 January, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Hello Toaf,
Of course the witnesses would lie, do you really think that Palestinians living under Hamas would say anything that goes against what Hamas wants them to say ?
What do you think their life expectancy would be after doing so ?
13 January, 2009 at 1:53 pm
“Palestinians living under Hamas would say anything that goes against what Hamas wants them to say ?”
Palestinians as a majority voted for Hamas (in free and fair elections, democratic elections where Israel and the US (who bang on and on about the greatness of democracy, even think it’s worth shit loads of Iraqi blood) rejected the outcome of those elections (hypocrites)).
They (the Palestinians), as a majority rejected Mahmoud Abbas and his corrupt Fatah party, I’d say your average Palestinian supports Hamas.
“What do you think their life expectancy would be after doing so ?”
I doubt there life expectancy is much now, be they pro or anti Hamas, Gaza is at the moment rather more dangerous than usual.
Gavin, you realise that Israel admits that now there were no militants firing from or near the UN school, ie they lied, and were proven wrong!
13 January, 2009 at 1:57 pm
Gavin, I don’t see any reason for us to continue this discussion. Thanks.
13 January, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Hello Toaf,
Of course they would lie, do you honestly believe that anyone living under Hamas would say anything other than what Hamas wants them to say ?
If they did so, how long do you think their life expectancy would be ?
As for the use of human shields…Have you looked at the video I linked ? That is a statement from the Hamas leader that they use human shields.
For more evidence, I think you can take a hint from Rob’s post just above, Gaza is one of the most densely populated places in the world, therefore it stands to reason that any weapon system that is being used from there is going to be surrounded by people.
I’d suggest that Hamas knows this all too well, and knows that any Israeli response will inevitably cause civilian deaths, once that happens, Hamas goes bleating to the international community, and Israel is blamed for “targetting” civilians — great propaganda, works a treat every time and works even better when children are involved.
My question to yourself and Rob is do you think that Israel should just sit back and do nothing while Hamas launches rocket attacks on its suburbs just because those attacks are coming from populated areas ? I reckon you’d struggle to find any country in the world that would allow that.
13 January, 2009 at 2:00 pm
They (the Palestinians), as a majority rejected Mahmoud Abbas and his corrupt Fatah party, I’d say your average Palestinian supports Hamas
Did the Palestinians also support the brutal, psychopathic slaughter of members of the Fatah party in 2006 by Hamas?
Did the Palestians support the public execution of fatah party members in the streets of Gaza? Did the palestianians also support the throwing of fatah party members off the roofs of gaza buildings in 2006?
13 January, 2009 at 2:00 pm
They (the Palestinians), as a majority rejected Mahmoud Abbas and his corrupt Fatah party, I’d say your average Palestinian supports Hamas
Did the Palestinians also support the brutal, psychopathic slaughter of members of the Fatah party in 2006 by Hamas?
Did the Palestians support the public execution of fatah party members in the streets of Gaza? Did the palestianians also support the throwing of fatah party members off the roofs of gaza buildings in 2006?
13 January, 2009 at 2:01 pm
Hello Toaf,
Of course they would lie, do you honestly believe that anyone living under Hamas would say anything other than what Hamas wants them to say ?
If they did so, how long do you think their life expectancy would be ?
As for the use of human shields…Have you looked at the video I linked ? That is a statement from the Hamas leader that they use human shields.
For more evidence, I think you can take a hint from Rob’s post just above, Gaza is one of the most densely populated places in the world, therefore it stands to reason that any weapon system that is being used from there is going to be surrounded by people.
I’d suggest that Hamas knows this all too well, and knows that any Israeli response will inevitably cause civilian deaths, once that happens, Hamas goes bleating to the international community, and Israel is blamed for “targetting” civilians — great propaganda, works a treat every time and works even better when children are involved.
My question to yourself and Rob is do you think that Israel should just sit back and do nothing while Hamas launches rocket attacks on its suburbs just because those attacks are coming from populated areas ? I reckon you’d struggle to find any country in the world that would allow that.
13 January, 2009 at 2:02 pm
They (the Palestinians), as a majority rejected Mahmoud Abbas and his corrupt Fatah party, I’d say your average Palestinian supports Hamas
Did the Palestinians also support the brutal, psychopathic slaughter of members of the Fatah party in 2006 by Hamas?
Did the Palestians support the public execution of fatah party members in the streets of Gaza? Did the palestianians also support the throwing of fatah party members off the roofs of gaza buildings in 2006?
13 January, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Hello Toaf,
Of course they would lie, do you honestly believe that anyone living under Hamas would say anything other than what Hamas wants them to say ?
If they did so, how long do you think their life expectancy would be ?
As for the use of human shields…Have you looked at the video I linked ? That is a statement from the Hamas leader that they use human shields.
For more evidence, I think you can take a hint from Rob’s post just above, Gaza is one of the most densely populated places in the world, therefore it stands to reason that any weapon system that is being used from there is going to be surrounded by people.
I’d suggest that Hamas knows this all too well, and knows that any Israeli response will inevitably cause civilian deaths, once that happens, Hamas goes bleating to the international community, and Israel is blamed for “targetting” civilians — great propaganda, works a treat every time and works even better when children are involved.
My question to yourself and Rob is do you think that Israel should just sit back and do nothing while Hamas launches rocket attacks on its suburbs just because those attacks are coming from populated areas ? I reckon you’d struggle to find any country in the world that would allow that.
13 January, 2009 at 2:05 pm
Sorry those posts came out a couple of times…not sure what happened there..
13 January, 2009 at 2:08 pm
Rob,
“Gavin, you realise that Israel admits that now there were no militants firing from or near the UN school, ie they lied, and were proven wrong!”
When you are under fire, especially in a built-up environment, it’s usually very difficult to ascertain exactly where the firing is coming from, you can at best get a direction and general vicinity, I’d suggest that the Israeli’s didn’t lie, they just made a mistake — something not uncommon in combat, it’s part of what’s called the fog of war.
13 January, 2009 at 2:15 pm
“My question to yourself and Rob is do you think that Israel should just sit back and do nothing while Hamas launches rocket attacks on its suburbs just because those attacks are coming from populated areas ? ”
No, I don’t, however I do believe Israels response is disproportionate and I do believe that if Israel ever wants peace it needs to withdraw to the ‘67 borders. If Hamas still carried on at least they’d get no sympathy from the likes of me.
13 January, 2009 at 2:19 pm
“I’d suggest that the Israeli’s didn’t lie, they just made a mistake — ”
Maybe but it does seem that you are willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, they hit three UN schools and only used the excuse for one. They claim that everything is terrorist infrastructure and as I suggested earlier even described hamas .mil infrastructure as ‘vast’ what a fucking joke, I’d suggest that they couldn’t lie straight in bed.
13 January, 2009 at 2:31 pm
I do recall at the time the reason given for bombing the schools was that they believed that the schools had weapons and bombs stored in them — of course I have no idea of the truth of those claims.
I can only suggest that the Israelis know that they are going to be criticised for attacking targets like schools so I reckon they must have believed at least initially that their intelligence on them was correct.
As to withdrawing back to the pre-67 borders, you could be right, but given that both Hamas and Hesbollah have sworn that they won’t stop fighting until Israel ceases to exist, I suspect that doing so won’t change that attitude.
You also have to consider the strategic implications for Israel of such a withdrawal, remembering the tiny size of the country it leaves them wide open to any invasion from Syria and — admittedly for now, less likely — Egypt.
I still have problems with the argument about disproportionate response, I’m of the opinion that if you are attacked, you have every right to use whatever means is at your disposal to deal with the attacker, I can’t see why Israel or anyone else should be hamstrung by having to take half-measures when dealing with an aggressor.
13 January, 2009 at 2:35 pm
Toaf,
I’ll assume that you’re satisfied with my answers :)
Sorry they multiple posted, not sure what happened — glitch ?
13 January, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Extremely satisfied, Gavin. You and I disagree, that’s all. No worries about the multiples; we all do it from time to time.
13 January, 2009 at 2:47 pm
“I can only suggest that the Israelis know that they are going to be criticised for attacking targets like schools so I reckon they must have believed at least initially that their intelligence on them was correct.”
I believe that Israel doesn’t give two hoots about the criticism as long as the US backs them and the EU complies.
“I still have problems with the argument about disproportionate response, I’m of the opinion that if you are attacked, you have every right to use whatever means is at your disposal to deal with the attacker, I can’t see why Israel or anyone else should be hamstrung by having to take half-measures when dealing with an aggressor.”
With that rationale you’d have no problem with the US nuking the Taleban, or India nuking Pakistan. proportionality is vital if we are to survive and prosper, self defence to me means responding with reasonable force.
An analogy for you, you punch me in the pub, a disproportionate response would be for me to go and set your house on fire killing your wife and kids.
13 January, 2009 at 2:48 pm
http://www.counterpunch.com/
All of you need to read this article by Uri Avnery. Note the WW2 analogy at the start. Keep in mind that Uri is a jew who served in the 1948 War of Independence.
Heres a quote
“The Blood-Stained Monster Enters Gaza
By URI AVNERY
Nearly seventy ago, in the course of World War II, a heinous crime was committed in the city of Leningrad. For more than a thousand days, a gang of extremists called “the Red Army” held the millions of the town’s inhabitants hostage and provoked retaliation from the German Wehrmacht from inside the population centers. The Germans had no alternative but to bomb and shell the population and to impose a total blockade, which caused the death of hundreds of thousands.
Some time before that, a similar crime was committed in England. The Churchill gang hid among the population of London, misusing the millions of citizens as a human shield. The Germans were compelled to send their Luftwaffe and reluctantly reduce the city to ruins. They called it the Blitz.
This is the description that would now appear in the history books – if the Germans had won the war.”
13 January, 2009 at 2:48 pm
Thanks Toaf,
I guess we can’t always agree on everything…
I think I should clarify that I’m not condoning the killing of innocent civilians here..I’m just saying that in the situation that’s happening over there, it’s tragically unavoidable…
Sadly, whenever there’s a confrontation like this civilians become little more than pawns…
I don’t know about you, but I found that Utube video very disturbing, here is a leader willing to sacrifice the lives of innocents for what is really a pretty sick ideal.
13 January, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Gavin the Jews lie after the fact about those schools having militants in them. Why is it so hard to believe they are acting in unashamed self interest. Theyre murderers knowingly and wittingly and they simply do not care.
13 January, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Yes Rob,
I see your point, but I think Israel does care about world opinion, otherwise they would just go in and kill everything they see.
The proportion of response differs in different cases of course, but when we are talking about committing soldiers to combat, it’s the responsibility of a commander to use whatever is at his disposal to minimise casualties amongst his own troops…wether that be through technology or sheer force, or both.
Hello Adrian,
Sorry, but regardless of whoever wrote it, that analogy is ridiculous…Germany invaded Russia and besieged Leningrad and attacked Great Britain without provocation from either country, i.e. Germany fired the first shots, Israel has entered Gaza after first having rockets launched into its cities.
13 January, 2009 at 3:01 pm
Adrian,
“Gavin the Jews lie after the fact about those schools having ….”
Your first 4 words tell me where you’re coming from…no further discussion is required.
13 January, 2009 at 4:58 pm
‘Then explain Rob, why Hamas doesn’t smuggle food into gaza like they do weapons?’
LOL!
Do you have any idea how much food it takes to supply a city of 400,000 people with enough food to keep them from starving?
You may not have noticed Rad, but most of Gaza is currently being bombed flat. Even if Hamas were smuggling enough food in, how do you suggest they supply half a million meals a day with no functional transport or distribution infrastructure?
Considering the IDF have already fired on a UN school and red cross ambulances, any truck driver attempting to deliver food will be running the gauntlet.
13 January, 2009 at 5:00 pm
Gavin wrote: I see your point, but I think Israel does care about world opinion, otherwise they would just go in and kill everything they see.
Kinda like saying Ivan Milat would have killed everything he saw but restricted himself to killing just 7 backpackers. Gee thanks Ivan!!!
So if world protests can (in your opinion) prevent genocide Gavin do you feel that maybe you should go protest … or do you condone genocide? Or is your threat of genocide just you talking out your hat?
13 January, 2009 at 5:20 pm
Something that is mostly ignored by the pro Israel side of the debate is the illegal occupation of Palestinian homes and farmland.
Until Israel remove all of the settlements from Palestinian territory, the Palestinians will not stop firing missiles.
I do not condone terrorism, im just saying that the Palestinians do have some very real grievances that must be addressed before peace is possible.
I am yet to see an acceptable (ie. non mythological) explaination for the theft and settlement of Palestinian land from the pro Israel side of the debate.
13 January, 2009 at 5:57 pm
“My question to yourself and Rob is do you think that Israel should just sit back and do nothing while Hamas launches rocket attacks on its suburbs just because those attacks are coming from populated areas ?”
according to Israel the hamas rocket attacks have been happening on and off for at least the last 5 years. why suddenly now is it a problem that it requires indiscriminate killing of civillians including children?
13 January, 2009 at 6:15 pm
“Something that is mostly ignored by the pro Israel side of the debate is the illegal occupation of Palestinian homes and farmland. ”
also the security barrier in west bank, the continued israeli blockade of the gaza strip even after the ceasefire, that it was israel who backed out of discussion for longterm ceasefire because it said it can’t make deals with then hamas-fatah government, and that the illegal occupation goes back to before hamas was even around! in fact, didn’t israel help create hamas?
those who continue to defend this latest attack on innocent gazans, inluding children are simply blinded by idealogy and are refusing to look at the facts of the issue. i’m sorry but i’m finding some of the comments on this thread defending israels merciless and unecessary attacks on people…innocent people without considering the bigger picture to be very disturbing.
13 January, 2009 at 6:31 pm
“in fact, didn’t israel help create hamas?”
i ask this as an actual question because read it somewhere but don’t remember exactly where or when.
13 January, 2009 at 7:33 pm
[...] explain those oh so funny pictures of livestock being smuggled through [...]
13 January, 2009 at 8:26 pm
“Tom glad to see you admit that Blair posters do juvenile and vulgar posts.”
Windrider – there is no doubt of that. Do you see the irony?
13 January, 2009 at 8:31 pm
a good summary of events:
http://www.iajv.org/michael/2009/1/2/response-to-alhadeff.html
also newmatilda has more.
13 January, 2009 at 10:46 pm
“according to Israel the hamas rocket attacks have been happening on and off for at least the last 5 years. why suddenly now is it a problem that it requires indiscriminate killing of civillians including children”
Because they know they will be able to get away with it whilst GWB is still in office? Once Obama is sworn in, Israel will back right down.
13 January, 2009 at 11:13 pm
“Because they know they will be able to get away with it whilst GWB is still in office?”
great. another of timmy/andy sheep decides to unload another of their memes. i don’t mind people with alternative view but at least try and be intelligent with your comments. this site already has a resident fuckwit troll in the form of rad pipper, who will get jealous if you try to steal his limelight.
seriously. I am so over the obama-messiah-derangement syndrome of the relevance deprived Right.
14 January, 2009 at 6:53 am
I’d say it has less to do with Dubya’s departure and more to do with the upcoming Israeli election.
14 January, 2009 at 7:01 am
Everything to do with the upcoming election, Tzipi has to appear as tough (evil) as Benjamin.
Thing is they’ve stuffed it up again by declaring objectives they won’t be able to meet, they’ll eventually withdraw from Gaza, Hamas will fire a single rocket and claim victory.
14 January, 2009 at 7:26 am
As Freedland writes in this week’s Guardian Weekly, Israel has tactics for war but no strategy for peace.
14 January, 2009 at 8:13 am
Hello Windrider,
Sorry, but I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about…Where did I say anything about genocide ?
And what has Ivan Milat killing 7 backpackers got to do with Israel’s invasion of Gaza ?
14 January, 2009 at 8:43 am
“great. another of timmy/andy sheep decides to unload another of their memes. i don’t mind people with alternative view but at least try and be intelligent with your comments. this site already has a resident fuckwit troll in the form of rad pipper, who will get jealous if you try to steal his limelight.
seriously. I am so over the obama-messiah-derangement syndrome of the relevance deprived Right.”
The fuck?
Will the current US administration condemn Israel bombing the crap out of Gaza? No.
Will the next US administration condemn Israel for bombing the crap out of Gaza? Probably not, but maybe..?
So that is why I think Israel are doing all the bombing now – they know they have a definite free pass to do so.
How does that make me a right wing troll?
14 January, 2009 at 8:47 am
“So that is why I think Israel are doing all the bombing now – they know they have a definite free pass to do so. ”
It’s because of the upcoming general election in Israel, I doubt that there will be any significant change in the US policy toward Israel with the new admin.
14 January, 2009 at 8:48 am
Hello Confessions,
“according to Israel the hamas rocket attacks have been happening on and off for at least the last 5 years. why suddenly now is it a problem that it requires indiscriminate killing of civillians including children?”
Firstly I don’t believe that Israel is deliberately targetting women and children, as stated numerous times above, Hamas’ use of them as human shields is the reason that so many of them have so tragically been killed…So perhaps you should be directing at least some of your anger towards those who are placing them in the line of fire.
Secondly, maybe the Israelis have decided to respond in this manner this time, because they’ve simply had enough of daily rocket attacks on their civilians. (Of course bearing in mind the not-too-far-off elections).
It’s interesting that you find the comments defending Israel “disturbing”, but you don’t seem to find Hamas’ use of innocents as human shields, nor their firing of rockets at Israel equally disturbing.
Not too sure about Israel helping to create Hamas, given that Hamas’ sworn aim is to destroy Israel, I’ll have to look that one up.
The link you supplied is an excellent one — if you are anti-Israeli…Perhaps someone needs to explain to Hamas and to some people here that a ceasefire means that you don’t continue to fire rockets, even if its ONLY 3 a day.
The fact that civilian casualties in Israel from these rocket attacks have been so light, is due only to the fact that Israel has an efficient early warning system, it’s certainly no thanks to the intent of those firing them.
I’m wondering when you’re going to condemn Hamas for its deliberate intention to indiscriminately slaughter Israeli women and children.
Can you see the difference between the two sides here…one is trying to take out military targets that have been placed amongst civilians, thus inevitably killing some of those civilians, and the other is deliberately, indiscriminately targetting civilians.
Hello Rob,
I agree with you, this is going to end up as another Lebanon style stuff up for Israel, I reckon yourself and Toaf are quite correct about it being very much tied to the upcoming elections.
14 January, 2009 at 9:00 am
You could be right, RobJ – I did see you make that point earlier, but it looked like confessions didnt quite understand what I was trying to say.
14 January, 2009 at 9:21 am
As Freedland writes in this week’s Guardian Weekly, Israel has tactics for war but no strategy for peace.
And hamas’s strategy for peace is what exactly?
14 January, 2009 at 9:32 am
Gav, you seem a very reasonable guy (for a conservative!) and are supportive of Israel.
Can you explain why you and many other conservatives seem so blase about the illegal occupation of Palestinian territory?
It is obviously a major factor in continued rocket attacks, and in public support for Hamas.
14 January, 2009 at 10:03 am
gavin: the illegal israeli occupation was happening way before hamas came on the scene. if hamas were not around the israelis would find some other party/organisation to blame as a threat and would continue with their invasions and illegal occupation. and in any case, hamas are the elected government – where else are they supposed to be if not amongst ordinary citizens?
my condemnation of hamas occured on the previous thread i referred to earlier. i’m not searching for it because that particular comments thread was awash with rad’s fuckwittery and frankly i’m not in the mood for scrolling through his ignorant, bigotted comments. your backtracking is however surprising. from yesterday when you were so sure that israel’s OTT actions were justified because of rocket fire, to today when you agree with Rob and Toaf that the israelis are acting with a domestic political agenda in mind. if you believe that then how can you condone israel’s actions given they publicly state this is about rocket fire, and when you know that they’ve had the past 5 years to deal with the attacks? turn it up!
dave: it seems i misinterpreted your comment and apologise.
14 January, 2009 at 10:58 am
Hello Dbd,
I’m not really a conservative, I’m more what you would call a swinging centrist — some issues I go Right, some I go Left…
It’s not that I support Israel’s occupation of Palestinian territory, I don’t, I too think they should withdraw from Gaza. My problem is with the tactics that have been employed by numerous Palestinian terrorist groups, including Hamas over many years, all of which thus far have failed.
Given that Hamas has vowed to fight until Israel is destroyed, it seems doubtful to me that that a full Israeli withdrawal will stop these attacks.
I would have thought that having won the election that Israel finally allowed, Hamas has the opportumity to show both Israel and the rest of the world that they are no longer a terrorist organisation, by putting their efforts into domestic policies in Gaza and peacefully pursuing negotiations with Israel. Unfortuneately, instead of that, we see Hamas continuing with their stated aim of fighting until Israel is destroyed, with a resumption of full scale rocket attacks on Israeli civilian areas and the Hamas leader stating that women and children will be used as human shields…That, in my opinion leaves very little room for negotiation for the Israelis.
Confessions,
There is no back tracking on my part…I still think that Israel is justified in responding to these attacks, the proportion of the response is really not relevant, as I said above somewhere, in war it is a military commander’s responsibility to use every means at his disposal to ensure minimal casualties to his troops. This doesn’t contradict the idea that the Israelis have an eye on upcoming elections, I think that any aspiring Israeli leader probably feels that they need to show the voters that they are willing and able to defend them against attack.
Having said that, it’s a no win situation for Israel which is why I agreed with Rob that it’s going to be Lebanon all over again, Israel will withdraw, Hamas will still be in power, will claim victory and will continue to launch its rockets into Israel and both Israelis and Palestinians will continue to die for nothing. Sadly, this scenario, either in Gaza or in Lebanon, will no doubt repeat itself again in the not too distant future.
14 January, 2009 at 11:38 am
and in any case, hamas are the elected government – where else are they supposed to be if not amongst ordinary citizens?
Confession, so you accept hamas’ use of human sheilds as acceptable?
Especially given that Gavin has already provided the evidence that they are using human sheilds
the Hamas leader stating that women and children will be used as human shields
14 January, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Gavin said: Sorry, but I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about…Where did I say anything about genocide ?
Here you disingenous twit:
“GavinM
13 January, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Yes Rob,
I see your point, but I think Israel does care about world opinion, otherwise they would just go in and kill everything they see.”
It must be hard to keep track of all the porkies you tell. But after reading one or two of you comments I realize that you are speaking out your hat quite often.
14 January, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Windrider you are truly pathetic. You have just dishonestly twisted & taken what Gavin has said out of context. Shame on you.
14 January, 2009 at 12:26 pm
That’s rich coming from you little Pip…
14 January, 2009 at 12:35 pm
How many sock puppets does Rad have?
14 January, 2009 at 12:52 pm
Windrider,
“So if world protests can (in your opinion) prevent genocide Gavin do you feel that maybe you should go protest … or do you condone genocide? Or is your threat of genocide just you talking out your hat?”
Speaking of disingenuous twits speaking out of their hats..
Please show me where i condoned genocide or where I threatened it..
Until you can produce evidence of me saying either of those things, it may be wise of you to cease making a fool of yourself.
If I need to clarify what I thought was a pretty simple statement in answer to a post from Rob, I said that if Israel wasn’t concerned about world opinion they would go in and kill everything they see…meaning, that they really would shoot indiscriminately and the death toll amongst civilians would be far higher than it presently is. That’s not genocide Windrider, maybe you should invest in a dictionary.
I’d also like you to show me evidence of all these “porkies” I’ve supposedly told…
Reading back up the thread I see your contribution to this discussion has amounted to hurling insults at Joe the Plumber, Tim Blair, (admittedly Blair deserves it, not sure about Joe), some guy called Tom and now me…very constructive I don’t think, but consistent with your posts on most threads.
I’m still waiting for you tell us what Ivan Milat has to do with Israel’s invasion of Gaza by the way…
14 January, 2009 at 1:05 pm
if Israel wasn’t concerned about world opinion they would go in and kill everything they see…meaning, that they really would shoot indiscriminately …
So now you change your story. It is no longer shooting everything but shooting indiscriminately. Ok can I get one of those time machines where by I can go and back and rewrite what I said. You still make an argument for a louder voice in criticizing Israel.
14 January, 2009 at 1:08 pm
Give it up Windrider, you have been caught out dishonestly twisting what gavin has said. Now you are just being a troll.
14 January, 2009 at 1:13 pm
Pipper you astound me with your irony.
Your m.o. here is making outlandish statements and then backpedalling when caught out complaining that people are twisting your words, while conveniently forgetting that you are one to pick up on a phrase or word and twist it to suit your purpose.
You are a either a simpleton or a hypocrite.
14 January, 2009 at 1:19 pm
“You are a either a simpleton or a hypocrite.”
He’s both, just ignore him, trolls live for reactions.
14 January, 2009 at 1:25 pm
“(admittedly Blair deserves it, not sure about Joe),”
Joe chooses to be in the public eye, he’s chosen to be a ‘correspondent’ in Israel, he’s fair game. I think the guy is a twat, a twat adored by other ignorant twats! like I said yesterday, what he said about Israeli’s living in fear is probably true but their fears and problems pale into insignificance when compared to their Gazan neighbours.
14 January, 2009 at 1:30 pm
Yes Windrider, OK, you got me..I’ve changed my story — are you happy now ?
My use of the term “Shooting everything they see”, was a figure of speech, do you ever use those ? It seems odd to me that you’re the only one here who didn’t seem to understand the context of what I wrote — then again, maybe not so odd. Next time I write I’ll try to take into account the fact that not everyone reading has equal comprehension skills.
Still waiting for you to show me where I condoned and threatened genocide, where all my porkies are and what Ivan Milat has to do with this invasion…Shall I hold my breath ?
Having Shane running interference for you with Rad is all well and good, but you really should be able to back up any accusations you make.
14 January, 2009 at 1:32 pm
The Haaretz newspaper confirmed that Israel is firing missiles into houses they know are occupied by civilians, as a way of “evacuating” the occupants.
The story has now been disappeared by Google and Haaretz :
A Gaza radio station warned that troops posing as locals were driving a vehicle normally used by paramedics. Residents said the radio broadcaster listed the vehicle’s license plate number and color.
Haaretz has also learned that one of the army’s methods for evacuating a home is to fire a missile toward its upper level. That is how B.’s house in Sajaiyeh was destroyed. It was bombed just a few minutes after a missile struck and 40 shell-shocked family members walked out of the house.
The IDF has also forced at least 40,000 people to leave their homes in agricultural and border areas. In Rafah, most of the 20,000 people removed from their homes were lodging with relatives and not in UNRWA facilities.
http://tinyurl.com/8gacag
14 January, 2009 at 1:33 pm
Hello Rob,
You’re probably right about Joe, I just don’t know that much about him, which is why I said “…don’t know about Joe….”.
As you say, having decided to put himself in the public arena he’s fair game, it will be interesting to see how long he lasts.
14 January, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Ivan Milat was an analogy – He has nothing to do with invasion but to do with weather or not you would thank a murderer for only killing 7 people instead of more. Like you say some people here do not comprehend too well and some people twist words.
killing everything = genocide. You just did not use that specific word (genocide) but it is the common understanding of what you said.
14 January, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Darryl,
I don’t suppose you would consider for a moment that the story was “disappeared” because it wasn’t true ?
Unsubstantiated statements by anonymous Gazan residents, yeah, I’d really bet my life on those.
As I’ve said before, lets wait for some independent analysis before we go jumping at shadows.
14 January, 2009 at 1:40 pm
what he said about Israeli’s living in fear is probably true but their fears and problems pale into insignificance when compared to their Gazan neighbours
And the reason why people in Gaza live the way they do is because they are controlled by Hamas who are a psychopathic, blood thirsty group who place the fulfilment of their ideology above the welfare of the people they govern.
As so clearly shown by Gavin that Hamas are openly admitting to using women and children as human shields.
14 January, 2009 at 1:50 pm
killing everything = genocide. You just did not use that specific word (genocide) but it is the common understanding of what you said
LOL You are comedy gold windrider.
14 January, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Rad Pipper = Mr Insult
14 January, 2009 at 1:57 pm
Genocide is the wiping out of an entire race or culture, I’m pretty sure that not every Palestinian lives in Gaza, and I’m equally sure that Israel isn’t likely to destroy the entire Arab culture, (and no I’m not saying it would be ok for the Israelis to kill every Palestinian in Gaza), also as I said, it was a figure of speech and you seem to be the only one here that didn’t understand what was meant.
“Ivan Milat was an analogy – He has nothing to do with invasion but to do with weather or not you would thank a murderer for only killing 7 people instead of more.”
Unfortuneately not a good analogy for this situation, Milat deliberately murdered 7 people, Israel hasn’t deliberately “murdered” anybody, civilians have been tragically killed because of Hamas using them as human shields…It’s easy to see who the murderers are, they’re the ones putting their own people in the firing line and choosing to fire rockets into their neighbour’s backyard.
14 January, 2009 at 2:05 pm
Gavin I think it is pretty obvious we are not on the same side of this debate. Unfortunately the issue of Israel seems to polarize debate. Yes you are right on Genocide and all Palestinians not living in Gaza.
Israel has consistently for years – using high precision weapons – targeted non military targets. Israel is not a shining example diplomacy.
14 January, 2009 at 2:12 pm
Israel has consistently for years – using high precision weapons – targeted non military targets. Israel is not a shining example diplomacy
Hamas have admitted openly to using is own people as Human Shields so determining what is a non military target is a lot harder. To make matters worse Hamas deliberately fire their rockets from civilian areas like schools, knowing very well that Israel will target the location of where the missile came from. If Hamas were really concerned about the welfare of it’s people, it would not deliberately use them as human shield or put them in the firing line with their rockets.
14 January, 2009 at 2:16 pm
“Unsubstantiated statements by anonymous Gazan residents, yeah, I’d really bet my life on those. As I’ve said before, lets wait for some independent analysis before we go jumping at shadows.”
GavinM’s message here is : Our War On Terror allies our without sin, even when they fire missiles into the homes of civilians in order to “evacuate” them.
Don’t let too much reality seep into your bubble there, mate.
14 January, 2009 at 2:18 pm
“Israel hasn’t deliberately “murdered” anybody”
They’ve made many, many extra judicial executions, that’s tantamount to murder, no trial, or trial by hellcat missile if you like.
When they made an extra judicial slaying in the middle of the night a few years ago, (via bomb) killed their target (can’t remember whether he was Hamas or Fatah) in the process slayed his entire family, that’s murder in my book, you might want to call it collateral damage but that’s just a fancy word Westerners like to use to kid themselves that they’re more civilised than the ‘enemy’.
14 January, 2009 at 2:19 pm
“Israel is not a shining example diplomacy.”
Well, we certainly agree on this point, I’m not saying Israel is blameless in all of this, my point from the beginning was that their response to this act of aggression was justified.
What really saddens me is that Hamas has been given the opportunity to actually try and make a difference in Gaza, instead of channelling their energies into yet another pointless attack on Israel, why not try firstly through social and economic policies in Gaza to improve the lot of the people there, and then by showing thay they are a responsible and reasonable government, pursuing peaceful negotiations with Israel…I would have thought it would at least be worth a try…
14 January, 2009 at 2:21 pm
The thing is Rad you ask a lot of people to believe what you say without backing it up.
Israel has had plenty of time to use diplomacy. The original partition of the state of Isreal in 1947 did not include a lot of the territory the nation now claims as its own. Israel is the aggressor in this conflict any way you try and sell it.
When will enough be enough? How far does the state of Israels agressive plans extend? When will they be satisfied?
14 January, 2009 at 2:21 pm
They’ve made many, many extra judicial executions, that’s tantamount to murder, no trial, or trial by hellcat missile if you like
Oh you mean like hamas’ slaughter of fatah members in 2006. Shame on you rob, you are so quick to condemn Israel while conveniently looking the other way on the crimes against humanity committed by Hamas.
Funny how you REFUSE to comment on Gavin’s link where Hamas openly admit to the use of women and children as human shields.
14 January, 2009 at 2:21 pm
GavinM Im not sorry to use a word such as “Jew” to describe these murderous bastards but an Israeli is a Jew. Its not controversial. Its a word. Im not an anti semite but if you prefer to tag me with that label then Im happy to wear it. Happy in the knowledge that I dont oppose these actions because Jews are doing them nor that I oppose their very Jewishness (which would make me an anti semite). I am angered by these events because they come from people who should really know better from a historical perspective. To suggest that the UN bombing was a “mistake” is really to fall into the propaganda trap the Israelis have set up. They give that excuse every time they kill innocents, are they that stupid or do they simply not care? I prefer the latter. As for the Uri Avnery analogy, you have missed the point. The point is not whether the current Israeli actions are nazi like, the main point was that the public justifications for bombing densely populated areas are almost identical. We the viewing public are being mislead by those in power. Nothing new there. You probably didnt even read the rest of the article.
14 January, 2009 at 2:24 pm
“The thing is Rad you ask a lot of people to believe what you say without backing it up.”
Wasting your time Windrider, rad is consistently hammered in every debate, he back peddles and lies, frequently contradicts himself, shows his utter ignorance (he actually thinks Palestinians have a state they can call their own).
Just ignore the idiot. I do, yet he still wastes keystrokes.
14 January, 2009 at 2:25 pm
When will enough be enough? How far does the state of Israels agressive plans extend? When will they be satisfied?
When will enough be enough on the horrendous actions of Hamas which has cause immense suffering of the people of Gaza? As Gavin has pointed out, Hamas had a chance to do the right thing when elected into government, but they instead choose to service their blood thirsty hatred of Israel and their own political opponents Fatah.
14 January, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Rob,
I’m only commenting about the current invasion…The extra-judicial executions are probably a different argument.
In principal I agree with you on them, although realistically I believe the Israelis aren’t really in a position to arrest and put these terrorists on trial. I suppose it comes down to how does Israel deal with what are effectively foreign based terrorists hiding amongst civilians.
No Darryl,
My message here is, lets not go jumping to conclusions based on unsubstantiated accusations from anonymous sources — I believe our law courts operate in a similar way.
14 January, 2009 at 2:30 pm
RobJ I gathered as much – I have never bothered with him much before.
14 January, 2009 at 2:35 pm
“I’m only commenting about the current invasion…The extra-judicial executions are probably a different argument.”
Yeah well I suppose they can just claim fog of war but the fact is the extra judicial executions were quite frequent and there was often ‘collateral damage’ which (IMHO) means that Israel (IDF and Parliamentarians) is fine with murder.
14 January, 2009 at 2:40 pm
Adrian,
Fighting a war is a mish-mash of confusing information, the best that commanders can do is make decisions based on the data thats placed in front of them, mistakes are commonplace and sadly when they are made innocent people often die.
You’re right, I didn’t bother to read the rest of the article, the pointless analogy was more than enough, perhaps the author should do a little more study of WW2, the German Blitz on London actually started out as revenge for a British raid that accidentally dropped bombs on Berlin, of course the Germans added a fair bit of interest to the repayment…
14 January, 2009 at 2:47 pm
“RobJ I gathered as much – I have never bothered with him much before.”
Yeah, I’ve been an idiot myself and engaged him frequently in the past, I regret it, because he’s a tool who single handedly ruins what could be decent debates with smart people from the right. He used to piss me off and I’d make the mistake of lashing out at other debaters who don’t deserve it.
Now I just ignore him, he can carry on embarrassing himself if he likes with his consistent displays ignorance and hypocrisy. Here’s an example:
“Oh you mean like hamas’ slaughter of fatah members in 2006. ”
The retard obviously doesn’t realise that the ousted Fatah were (sponsored by US & Israel) attempting to overturn the democratically elected Hamas via a violent coup. The guy’s a twat, hasn’t got a clue about the subject at hand, no shit Windrider, Rad Pipper thinks that the Palestinians have a state that they can call their own. He also thinks Andrew Bolt is a reporter of news, no wonder he’s always wrong.
14 January, 2009 at 2:49 pm
“British raid that accidentally dropped bombs on Berlin, of course the Germans added a fair bit of interest to the repayment…”
Yeah, then got it in spades with Dresden.
14 January, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Hi Confessions,
Re your question about Israel creating Hamas…the best info I could find is that they didn’t actually create it, but they gave it support, as an opposition to the PLO and Fatah…
This seems to be a reasonably balanced description:
http://www.ujc.org/page.aspx?id=64336
14 January, 2009 at 2:55 pm
“Yeah, then got it in spades with Dresden.”
True…and there wasn’t a real lot left of most of their other cities by the end either.
As they say, what goes around comes around.
14 January, 2009 at 2:58 pm
GavinM Avnery is one israels leading intellectuals. He knows more about WW2 than probably any of us. His family died in the holocaust. The rest of the article is a seering indictment of attitudes such as yours and puts paid to the bullshit you have going on inside that pea brain.
http://antonyloewenstein.com/blog/2009/01/13/jewish-racism-for-all-to-see/
This is a most interesting bit of footage.
14 January, 2009 at 3:01 pm
“as an opposition to the PLO and Fatah…”
I’m starting to think that Israeli secret services/policy makers are stupid, they now back Fatah over Hamas, even armed them in the hope that the hopeless and corrupt Fatah could violently overthrow the democratically elected Hamas.
The other stupid thing I mentioned earlier, setting and impossible objective for their current .mil action ie, stop Hamas firing rockets.
No doubt, like Hezbollah in Lebanon (about to win complete control of the Lebanese parliament) Hamas will emerge from this conflict stronger. I’m thinking the last thing Israel wants is peace, if they get peace they will have no excuses for their appalling treatment of the Palestinians (personally I think they have no excuse now but I realise I’m often out of step with ‘conventional’ thinking)
14 January, 2009 at 3:02 pm
“As they say, what goes around comes around.”
Another argument Gavin, but personally I think Dresden was an out and out war crime, Germany were beaten (as good as) it was pure revenge.
14 January, 2009 at 3:10 pm
thanks gavin. i knew israelies didn’t create hamas as such, but had read they helped with its establishment. it’s nice to know my memory isn’t complete shit.
the only other thing i would add to this thread is this war, that we now suspect probably has more to do with Israeli domestic political agenda than rocket fire from gaza is advancing the overall outcomes of everyday palestininans exactly nowhere. we also know now that the US abstained from voting on the UN resolution at the behest of israel, neither bush nor obama will bring palestine and israel govts to the table to nut out a ceasefire agreement, nor will the EU that provides 70% of israel’s export market enforce trade sanctions until the unecessary violence stops. everybody rightly condemns hamas for violent atrocities, but israeli atrocities go uncommented on by political leaders. no wonder they think they can just keep on killing innocent civillians while the rest of the world turns a blind eye, or uses debunked talking points to justify the carnage and dispossession.
it’s a fucking disgrace.
14 January, 2009 at 3:42 pm
Yes Rob,
Germany was beaten, I think the allies claimed after the war that the German army was using Dresden as a staging post or transport centre, something like that..not sure now.
But as you say, by then there wasn’t a lot of fight left in Germany, there seems little doubt that revenge was the true motive.
14 January, 2009 at 3:45 pm
Adrian,
There’s no doubt that there are racist Jews, it doesn’t mean that every Jew, or even that a particularly large number of Jews are racist, what’s your point ?
Honestly, if you’re going to start calling people pea-brains, you better check the capacity of your own first.
14 January, 2009 at 4:11 pm
Yes Confessions
“the only other thing i would add to this thread is this war, that we now suspect probably has more to do with Israeli domestic political agenda than rocket fire from gaza is advancing the overall outcomes of everyday palestininans exactly nowhere. ”
You are exactly right, the real tragedy of this current war is the wasted opportunity, had Hamas not launched these rocket attacks, Israel wouldn’t have had any reason to invade Gaza — do you think they would have done so if they hadn’t been fired upon, I tend to doubt it.
As I’ve often repeated here, if only Hamas would put aside its desire to see the destruction of Israel, concentrate on governing its people and seek peaceful negotiation with Israel, then perhaps we could see a resolution to this conflict that has gone on for far too long…
Of course there has to be give and take from both sides, and a full Israeli withdrawal from the occupied Palestinian territories would be a good start.
14 January, 2009 at 6:23 pm
Way too many comments today, haven’t caught up yet, but I thought Gav might be interested in this article.
14 January, 2009 at 11:09 pm
and another one.
http://newmatilda.com/2009/01/14/long-history-killing-children
simply washing over israel’s role in the conflict and putting everything on palestine seems like another form of denialism to me. and to blame innocent palestinians for getting killed is inhuman and disgusting!
as i’ve posted above, israel were behaving like this even before hamas were around. and if they weren’t around tomorrow you can bet Israel would concoct some other reason to continue the dispossession of palestinian territory.
at the end of the day if israel were so confident they were in the right, that civillians weren’t being killed, why not allow the media into gaza to actually report what is happening?
15 January, 2009 at 5:19 am
confessions, the media must stay out or it might witness the kind of indiscriminate attacks seen toward the end of this clip.
15 January, 2009 at 6:57 am
Medical sources are now saying the death toll has reached 1 000 almost a third of them children. 5 000 wounded.
Now this can’t be verified (along with the claims that IDF are shooting at fleeing civilians), because Israel will not allow journalists or human rights monitors in, there’s a surprise, some pro-Israeli’s will claim that Israel isn’t letting them in for their own safety, I would claim that’s an utterly naive viewpoint since it’s quite clear that the IDF and Israeli politicians don’t give a hoot about the safety of non-Israeli civilians. Let’s face it, Tzipi Livni and Ehud Barak are scum who are willing to slaughter a 1 000 to increase their election chances. I hate politicians, is there anything they’re not prepared to do for a vote?
15 January, 2009 at 7:00 am
RobJ, do you have a link for the estimates of children killed? I read this morning that most of the dead where Hamas.
15 January, 2009 at 7:28 am
It’s the BBC headline story at the moment.
15 January, 2009 at 7:43 am
Ta, Rob. Have read it now.
I guess the dead children are all a Palestinian fabrication, too.
15 January, 2009 at 7:50 am
as well as other eyewitness accounts:
http://joshualandis.com/blog/?p=1938
and i’m with RobJ on the journalists. yes it’s a risky business, but as we’ve seen with journos going into warzones in the past there are ways their safety can be protected. the ban on the media entering gaza to me is more about Israel shielding the world from the truth about what’s happening on the ground. fortunately the digital media is getting around that and bringing the stories of actual affected people to us. this is on top of the collapse of the health system, people have nowhere to flee to, no running water, no food. i’m calling it like i see it: war crimes.
15 January, 2009 at 7:58 am
“I guess the dead children are all a Palestinian fabrication, too.”
They’d be Hamas human shields, every single one of them, Israel is blameless, they must be, our leaders (politicians) haven’t condemned them, politicians are bastions of morality (/sarcasm)
15 January, 2009 at 8:00 am
I’ve just read that the Israeli Supreme Court has ordered the IDF to allow journos in, they refuse to comply, they’d be covering up war crimes. No I can’t prove it, but ask yourself, why are the IDF in violation of the orders from their own supreme Court?
15 January, 2009 at 8:14 am
not just journos either Rob, aid agencies too.
war crimes.
15 January, 2009 at 9:08 am
Hello Toaf,
An excellent article, probably the most balanced piece I’ve seen written thus far, and had you read my posts you would see that in many of them I’ve been saying very similar things. I.E. Missed opportunity from Hamas’ side, Israel should withdraw from Palestinian territory.
People here seem to think that I’m supporting Israel regardless of what they do, I’m not — what I’ve been saying is that Israel has every right to respond to rocket attacks on its citizens.
There’s no doubt that too many children have been killed, but I don’t believe that the Israelis have gone out to deliberately target them, as I’ve also said, mistakes are made in wars.
The reason so many civilians have died is because of their use as human shields, a fact that many here don’t seem to want to acknowledge, despite the statements made by the Hamas leader that I linked to — how many of you have bothered to look at it I wonder.
As to the video you linked to Toaf, I’m sorry but I didn’t see any evidence of indiscriminate attacks in it, the end showed a helicopter firing at something — who knows what? The guy commenting certainly wasn’t close enough to see either.
Re allowing reporters in, I agree in principal that the IDF should, the problem with that though is that they would then be responsible for the safety of those reporters, an extra burden that any army commander will tell you they don’t want.
It’s interesting Rob and Confessions, that you’ve accused and pronounced the IDF to be guilty of committing war-crimes from your loungerooms without any real evidence to support those accusations — I think I’d prefer to wait until after the firing stops — even the Nazis got trials.
You also seem to be willing to accept the casualty figures that are being given by the same sources that have been shown to lie about such numbers in the past — once again, I’ll wait until an independent assessment is made.
Confessions…
“this is on top of the collapse of the health system, people have nowhere to flee to, no running water, no food. i’m calling it like i see it: war crimes.”
Umm, You do realise that you’re talking about a war-zone don’t you ?
Oh, and referencing links to comments from Syrian sites on this conflict — please….
Of course the saddest thing about this war is that it will achieve nothing, except probably foster even more resentment for Israel amongst Palestinians…One can only hope that eventually both sides will come to their senses and negotiate in good faith — I won’t hold my breath though.
15 January, 2009 at 9:10 am
Gav, glad it was worthwhile. And yes, I have read each comment on this thread. That’s why I suggested Freedland’s piece.
15 January, 2009 at 9:34 am
“It’s interesting Rob and Confessions, that you’ve accused and pronounced the IDF to be guilty of committing war-crimes from your loungerooms without any real evidence to support those accusations”
It’s interesting that you seem to give them the benefit of the doubt regardless. However I did write:
“No I can’t PROVE it, but ask yourself, why are the IDF in violation of the orders from their own supreme Court?”
“I think I’d prefer to wait until after the firing stops — even the Nazis got trials.”
LOL – I’m sure the investigations will be telling, I’m not putting anyone on trial, I’m merely calling it how I see it.
“Umm, You do realise that you’re talking about a war-zone don’t you ?”
Well Duh, of course it is, after all Israel are bombing the shit out of Gaza. Killing many civilians in the process.
You yourself Gavin agree that this war is about the upcoming Israeli election, how does that sit with you? It disgusts me!
15 January, 2009 at 10:08 am
Hi Rob,
Yes, I did agree that it was partly due to the upcoming elections, but I said that it was also in response to rocket attacks on Israeli civilians.
“It’s interesting that you seem to give them the benefit of the doubt regardless. ”
I would have thought that the benefit of the doubt should be given until there is actual proof — I believe thats how our legal system works too.
“Well Duh, of course it is, after all Israel are bombing the shit out of Gaza. Killing many civilians in the process.”
We do realise don’t we, that in war-zones, things like health systems, running water, electricity, phones, food supplies etc.. do tend to break down — that’s not a war-crime.
15 January, 2009 at 10:12 am
“would have thought that the benefit of the doubt should be given until there is actual proof — I believe thats how our legal system works too.”
Not when the civilians are getting slaughtered, and the IDF violates it’s own Supreme Court rulings to allow journos and Human Rights Monitors in. Benefit of the doubt may seem rational in your ‘loungeroom’.
15 January, 2009 at 10:14 am
‘Yes, I did agree that it was partly due to the upcoming elections, but I said that it was also in response to rocket attacks on Israeli civilians.”
As confessions pointed out earlier, the urgency to stamp out rocket attacks has all of a sudden become critical, coinciding with the expiry of the ceasefire and the upcoming Israeli general Election. So critical it’s been necessary to kill 1 000 and wound 5 000 all the while banning journos from reporting the facts.
15 January, 2009 at 10:53 am
As I said in my post above, I agree in principal that journos should be allowed in, but coupled with that is the very real concern over their safety, and also the safety of any troops tasked to look after them — I know you dismiss that concern, but it is an issue, not only the danger of direct fire at them, but also the potential of booby-traps having been laid.
I would have thought that giving the benefit of the doubt in the absence of any real evidence is rational from anywhere.
Traditionally, prospective Israeli leaders have had to show that they are strong and willing to take tough action to defend their citizens — not saying it’s always the right way to go, but it seems to be customary there.
“So critical it’s been necessary to kill 1 000 and wound 5 000 all the while banning journos from reporting the facts.”
As I said, rather than rely on previously discredited sources, I’ll wait until the independent assessments are made.
“Not when the civilians are getting slaughtered…”
So how about directing at least some of your anger at those who are using those civilians as human shields…I’m yet to see any criticism of Hamas at all from you.
Do you think that this invasion would have happened had Hamas not launched that rocket attack, and if so, what pretext do you think the Israelis would have used ?
15 January, 2009 at 11:08 am
Gav: “Do you think that this invasion would have happened had Hamas not launched that rocket attack, and if so, what pretext do you think the Israelis would have used ?”
An existential threat? Terrorism?
Incidentally, I think firing the rockets is stupid and counter-productive.
15 January, 2009 at 11:09 am
And criminal, obviously.
15 January, 2009 at 11:21 am
“Do you think that this invasion would have happened had Hamas not launched that rocket attack, and if so, what pretext do you think the Israelis would have used ?”
Yes, Israel would’ve just made an excuse. The rocket attacks are nothing new and the invasion coincides with the ceasefire expiry and the upcoming election. We’ll never know though, fact is the invasion happened and the death toll is horrendous. Coupled with the fact that the Israeli objective is unattainable.
15 January, 2009 at 11:34 am
“So how about directing at least some of your anger at those who are using those civilians as human shields…I’m yet to see any criticism of Hamas at all from you.”
Just yesterday I said Hamas was wrong to fire rockets, it could have been the day before. as for you, I’ve yet to see any criticism of Israel! Even though you acknowledge that this is about an election (partly)????
13 Israeli’s dead in the current conflict, 1 000 Palestinians!!! I say that’s disproportionate, you don’t even acknowledge disproportionality in conflict. I’m stopping now Gavin, we’ll never ever agree on this issue.
15 January, 2009 at 11:38 am
BTW – Hamas has accepted Egypt’s proposal for a ceasefire, Israel will respond later.
15 January, 2009 at 1:45 pm
“We do realise don’t we, that in war-zones, things like health systems, running water, electricity, phones, food supplies etc.. do tend to break down — that’s not a war-crime.”
except that not allowing aid in to the country, deliberately targetting places of refuge, including a UN school, and sabotaging essential infrastructure is pretty damned close. not to mention the issue that started this thread: an absence of food aid.
BTW simply dismissing out of hand sources of information simply because they don’t concur with your idealogical viewpoint is yet more denial. that is twice you’ve done that now without even being able to address the specifics of what people are reporting. your blinkers are now growing at a rate similar to pinocchio’s nose!
“Do you think that this invasion would have happened had Hamas not launched that rocket attack, and if so, what pretext do you think the Israelis would have used ?”
take your pick from any number of excuses that go back 40 years. the rationale and justification from israel might be different each time, but the feebleness in attempt to explain logically is always the same.
“I’m yet to see any criticism of Hamas at all from you.”
then you aren’t looking. this is now the third time i’ve mentioned we have already been through this about hamas on a previous thread last year, and we all were in agreement that using human shields is an atrocity.
but while i’m thinking of it you have not slated blame to israel for their anti-humanitarian and cruel attacks on innocent civilians all for the purpose of a domestic policy agenda. it’s fucking outrageous not to mention incredibly sad.
15 January, 2009 at 1:50 pm
How about a bit of balance/ maybe he could post a blog of how little ratty Howard almost ejaculated over George W.
15 January, 2009 at 3:08 pm
Some issues that do not seem terribly well-explained in the media or even particularly closely examined:
* If one was to watch only the mainstream media, one would think that the ceasefire ended in an unprovoked flurry of Hamas rockets.
As Norman Fincklestein writes at Counterpunch (http://www.counterpunch.org/finkelstein01132009.html):
“The record is fairly clear. You can find it on the Israeli website, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs website. Israel broke the ceasefire by going into the Gaza and killing six or seven Palestinian militants. At that point—and now I’m quoting the official Israeli website—Hamas retaliated or, in retaliation for the Israeli attack, then launched the missiles.
Now, as to the reason why, the record is fairly clear as well. According to Ha’aretz, Defense Minister Barak began plans for this invasion before the ceasefire even began. In fact, according to yesterday’s Ha’aretz, the plans for the invasion began in March. And the main reasons for the invasion, I think, are twofold. Number one; to enhance what Israel calls its deterrence capacity, which in layman’s language basically means Israel’s capacity to terrorize the region into submission. After their defeat in July 2006 in Lebanon, they felt it important to transmit the message that Israel is still a fighting force, still capable of terrorizing those who dare defy its word.
And the second main reason for the attack is because Hamas was signaling that it wanted a diplomatic settlement of the conflict along the June 1967 border. That is to say, Hamas was signaling they had joined the international consensus, they had joined most of the international community, overwhelmingly the international community, in seeking a diplomatic settlement. And at that point, Israel was faced with what Israelis call a Palestinian peace offensive. And in order to defeat the peace offensive, they sought to dismantle Hamas.”
*Israels’ various apologists regularly shed crocodile tears over the massive civilian casualties saying that they are unavoidable: Hamas are using them as human shields. If that’s the case, then Churchill was using the civilian population of London in the same way and that the 40,000 deaths caused there by the Blitz were a sad necessity brought about by wars’ iron logic.
15 January, 2009 at 3:24 pm
Rob,
If you haven’t seen any criticism of Israel from me, you obviously haven’t been reading my posts. Although I must admit there’s been way more than I usually make.
“The rocket attacks are nothing new and the invasion coincides with the ceasefire expiry and the upcoming election. We’ll never know though, fact is the invasion happened and the death toll is horrendous. Coupled with the fact that the Israeli objective is unattainable.”
Still no criticism of Hamas for the use of human shields, which is also a war crime and is the reason why so many civilians have been killed…Interesting.
“13 Israeli’s dead in the current conflict, 1 000 Palestinians!!! I say that’s disproportionate, you don’t even acknowledge disproportionality in conflict.”
I’ve addressed this issue with you before, but I’ll say it again….Where is it written that both sides in a war have to have equal casualties, and no I don’t acknowledge disproportionality in conflict, it’s a ridiculous idea — it’s a war Rob, would you suggest that in WW2 the Allies shouldn’t have used weapons that were technologically superior to those of the Germans or, because we had more troops, we should only have committed the same number as they had ?
I agree with you that the Israeli objective is unattainable, and I think you said above somewhere that this will be another Lebanon, I agree with you on that as well.
I reckon the only way any progress will be achieved is through peaceful negotiation, the problem is that you have one side that is sworn to continue fighting until the other is wiped off the map, one that doesn’t want to cede any territory and hot-heads on both sides who won’t compromise.
Hi Toaf,
I really doubt that they would have used just the threat of terrorism without an actual attack as an excuse to launch a full scale invasion.
“Incidentally, I think firing the rockets is stupid and counter-productive.”
Yes, and for the record, in case I haven’t made it clear, I think this invasion by the Israelis is equally stupid and counter-productive.
Confessions,
My comment about not seeing any criticism of Hamas was directed to Rob, not to yourself.
“except that not allowing aid in to the country, deliberately targetting places of refuge, including a UN school, and sabotaging essential infrastructure is pretty damned close. not to mention the issue that started this thread: an absence of food aid.”
Since when is it a war crime to not allow aid into enemy territory ? Rightly or wrongly this is a war situation, Israel is under no obligation to allow aid to what it perceives as its enemy.
As to the deliberate targetting of places of refuge, I think I’ve addressed that many times…Here it is again — I don’t believe that Israel is deliberately targetting civilians, I think mistakes have been made which have resulted in the death of innocents, its a tragedy, but unfortuneately it is also a common event in war…
“BTW simply dismissing out of hand sources of information simply because they don’t concur with your idealogical viewpoint is yet more denial. that is twice you’ve done that now without even being able to address the specifics of what people are reporting.”
I’ve dismissed, on the basis of the information provided being sourced from unsubstantiated comments from anonymous sources, a “news” story that was taken down by the sites that had published it, (ask yourself why they would take down that story but leave others critical of Israel up, I’d suggest that it’s because it wasn’t true), — and I’ve dismissed a reference you gave to a Syrian site, I’m sorry, but given Syria’s views on Israel I find it very difficult to believe that you’re going to get a balanced view from any report that originates in that country.
What I have said all through this thread is instead of jumping to conclusions at every unproven allegation against the Israelis, lets wait for an independent assessment to be made of their conduct of the war, and then hit them with any criticism that is due.
I’ve acknowledged that I believe this invasion is due, in part because of the upcoming elections, which if is indeed the case is reprehensible, but I also think that the Israeli government has a right to respond to an attack on its people.
All in all this is yet another pointless Arab/Israeli war that will achieve nothing other than a huge casualty list and more hatred towards Israel in the Arab world — yet another lost opportunity for a peaceful resolution through sheer stupidity on both sides.
15 January, 2009 at 3:54 pm
“You can’t make somebody understand something if their salary depends upon them not understanding it.”
15 January, 2009 at 5:25 pm
Just one theory to answer the ‘why now?’ question — it’s reported that a number of rockets in this attack reached far further into Israel than any have done previously…40 miles instead of the usual 10…and apparently brings some extremely sensitive infrastructure within range.
This would suggest that Hamas has had something of a technological upgrade in its weaponry — perhaps the Israeli’s have decided to try and take out these weapons ?
15 January, 2009 at 6:03 pm
Hello Gavin,
Are these the so-called “Grad” rockets?
From http://www.deagel.com/Multiple-Launch-Rocket-Systems/Grad_a000745001.aspx
“BM-21 Grad (“Hail”) , also known as the M-1964, is a Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) capable of delivering 122mm unguided rockets at ranges of 20 kilometers. Each 122mm caliber rocket carries 23 kg of cluster, incendiary or chemical munitions. BM-21 Grad rocket launch system is mounted on a 6×6 all terrain truck. Typically, this artillery system is equipped with 40 rocket tubes but there is a variety of versions carrying from 12 to 50 rocket tubes.”
In short the Grad is a weapon designed to deliver an intense barrage over a wide area.
It depends on the type of infrastructure you’d be trying to degrade, but this is not a precision weapon.
I think as regards the “why now” question, you need look little further than the next election for the Kenesset which I believe is coming up fairly shortly with a government desperate to take the “strong man” mantle on to erase the humiliating memory of 2006 in Lebanon.
I note with interest that two Israeli Arab parties have been banned in this past week.
Regards,
Greg
16 January, 2009 at 7:54 am
“Since when is it a war crime to not allow aid into enemy territory ?”
it’s not, but that’s not exactly what i said is it gavin?
“I’ve dismissed, on the basis of the information provided being sourced from unsubstantiated comments from anonymous sources, a “news” story that was taken down by the sites that had published it,”
which one? the articles i’ve provided are still available.
“and I’ve dismissed a reference you gave to a Syrian site,”
the account might be hosted by a syrian site which doesn’t necessarily invalidate the person’s experience. seriously this reminds me of the blair/bolt sheep who automatically dismiss anything by the ABC because it’s….well, the ABC. if the actual media were allowed into gaza then we wouldn’t need to rely on blog post by ordinary citizens.
meanwhile israel have shelled the UN headquarters injuring UN staff and damaging vital humanitarian aid. using the same feeble excuses we’ve seen for decades all the israelis can say is they were shot at from that location but it was a mistake. either the israeli army is hopelessly bumbling and incompetent or they think the rest of the world are idiots. i know which i’d bet on.
I prefer not to think of this war in terms of pro israel or pro hamas like the sheep at timmy’s – black vs white, wrong vs right, good vs evil. I think what I and others are saying here is they are pro humanitarian, and i’m still going to call it like i see it: war crimes.
16 January, 2009 at 8:35 am
Gavin,
Was the Syrian site you dismissed this one:
http://joshualandis.com/blog/?p=1938
The Syria Comment blog? It’s run by Joshua Landis, Co-director, Center for Middle East Studies at the University of Oklahoma according to the site.
BIO: Joshua Landis teaches modern Middle Eastern history and politics and writes on Syria and its surrounding countries.
He writes “Syria Comment,” a daily newsletter on Syrian politics that attracts some 3,000 readers a day. It is widely read by officials in Washington, Europe and Syria. Dr. Landis regularly travels to Washington DC to consult with the State Department and other government agencies.
He is a frequent analyst on TV and radio. Most recently he has appeared on the Jim Lehrer News Hour, Charlie Rose Show, CNN, Fox News, and has been widely quoted in the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, LA Times, and comments frequently for NPR and BBC radio. He has spoken at the Brookings Institute, USIP, Middle East Institute, and Council on Foreign Relations.
He was educated at Swarthmore (BA), Harvard (MA), and Princeton (PhD). He has lived over 14 years in the Middle East and received numerous grants to study in the region, including three Fulbright grants and one from the Social Science Research Council.
I think anything written on Mr Landis’ Blog is rather credible and not to be lightly dismissed.
Regards,
Greg
16 January, 2009 at 9:13 am
Got a few bones to pick, Gav.
Firstly, the laws underwhich it is illegal to use human shields are the LOAC. (internationally recognised laws of armed conflict) and the Geneva convention. Considering Israel has refused to sign the Geveva convention, and doesn’t recognise the authority of international law, is it reasonable for them (or you) to cry foul when their opponent breaks the laws that they themselves refuse to obey?
Secondly, the LOAC also say that it is illegal to fire on red cross or red crecent ambulances. They also state that it is illegal to use incendiaries, or any other weapon that causes unneccisary suffering, and that an occupying army has an obligation to prisoners and civilians to provide basic human rights. (like food, water, shelter etc)
Thirdly, you said a few days ago that you “still have problems with the argument about disproportionate response”
Please consider that another guideline under the LOAC is that of proportionality.
From what i have read Hamas are guilty of war crimes, for their use of human shields. But under the very same laws Israel are equally, or possibly more guilty.
You cant have it both ways Gav, and neither can Israel.
16 January, 2009 at 9:27 am
I think this article on Independent Australian Jewish Voices (http://www.iajv.org/michael/2009/1/2/response-to-alhadeff.html) states the broader contect surrounding the Gaza conflict quite well.
Regards,
Greg
16 January, 2009 at 9:31 am
Hello Greg,
Yes, It may have been the Grad, that the reports mentioned, although they did say that they struck 40 miles into Israel, perhaps they might get a longer range from different launch systems ? I don’t know about that one..
You’re right about them not being a precision weapon, if I recall correctly the reports mentioned I think a nuclear power station, a chemical plant and something else…Sorry I can’t remember exactly, either one of these, I guess it would only take one (un)lucky shot, and a fair bit of damage could be done.
Btw, I’m sorry, but I can’t agree with your use of Churchill using Londoners as human shields as an analogy for this conflict…Very different types of war.
Hi Confessions,
I’m sorry, I was referring to the wrong news article when I said one you had linked to had been taken down…Way too many posts here, I lost track…
I’ve just taken another look at the newMatilda story you linked to…Assoun is still claiming 500 killed in Jenin, a number long since disproved by independent investigators, he also claims 106 dead in Qana after the UN compound was hit by Israeli shells, Independent investigation showed it was hit by one aerial missile that exploded and one that didn’t and confirmed 28 dead, and 13 missing, the Lebanese government claimed 54 dead, still far too many but way short of the 106 claimed by Assoun, he also fails to mention that rockets had been fired at the Israelis from the vicinity of the compound…These distortions alone would suggest that this author is biased and not likely to present a balanced view of the current conflict.
“I prefer not to think of this war in terms of pro israel or pro hamas like the sheep at timmy’s – black vs white, wrong vs right, good vs evil. I think what I and others are saying here is they are pro humanitarian, and i’m still going to call it like i see it: war crimes.”
I agree with you, this war is a tragedy, and as usual its the innocents that suffer the most — all I’m trying to say is lets direct our anger at those we know are responsible, at this stage, that being a government that by it’s leader’s own admission uses women and children as human shields and then at Israel if and when it is shown by some independent investigation that the IDF has deliberately and knowingly targetted innocent civilians.
16 January, 2009 at 10:01 am
Hello Gavin,
If it is the Grad that is being used (and it seems likely to me that it is) then I don’t think they are being used to their full capability – ie, ripple-fired as a full barrage; that they seem to being fired in dribs and drabs either singly or in groups or sequences of 3-4 at a time. This suggests to me that they are being fired induviually from improvised launching troughs. I could be wrong though.
I’m not too sure what people mean when they say Hamas are using the population of Gaza as human shields. I know the IDF were using Palestinian civilians as human shields when conducting house-to house raids on the West Bank in recent years, but so far as I know, Hamas is not locking people up in (say) major units of infrastructure and daring the IDF to bomb them. As I understand it, the term as it’s being used currently is that Hamas is the elected government of Gaza and as such it dwells there. Insofar as this is being said to constitute using the Gazans as human shields, then I think the Churchill/London analogy stands up pretty well.
Regards,
Greg
16 January, 2009 at 10:02 am
Hi Dbd,
Have to break these posts up a bit or they are way too long..
I’m not trying to have it both ways….All I’ve been saying is lets wait for an independent investigation into the IDF’s actions before we pronounce them guilty of war-crimes…
The issue of Israel and the Geneva Convention is a bit difficult to work through — We are talking about the fourth convention which was enacted in 1949 and ratified by Israel in 1951…I’ve done a bit of googling and it seems that Israel has since refused to recognise this convention.
The reason they have given is that the only time the high contracting parties to the convention have convened a meeting since 1949 was to discuss Israel, whereas they have ignored far worse atrocities committed by and in other countries — incidentally, not a sufficient reason to boycott in my opinion.
Obviously firing on red cross/crescent vehicles is a violation of military conventions and if guilty of doing so, those responsible should be held to account.
“They also state that it is illegal to use incendiaries, or any other weapon that causes unneccisary suffering”
By this I’m assuming you are referring to the white phosphorus munitions — international law allows for these munitions to be used as smoke-screen devices, of course using these in an area such as Gaza is sure to cause civilian casualties because of the fall-out from them, and Israel definitely should not be deploying them there, technically they aren’t in breach for doing so for use as smoke-screens, but I think in practical terms there is no doubt they know of the likelihood that casualties will be inflicted by their use. Probably hard to prove as a war-crime, but definitely a humanitarian issue.
I’m sure they must have other devices they could use to create smoke-screens available to them.
“that an occupying army has an obligation to prisoners and civilians to provide basic human rights. (like food, water, shelter etc)”
This is true, however, at this stage the fighting is still going on, so the IDF is not yet an occupying army…occupation is after the battle.
16 January, 2009 at 10:44 am
Hello Greg – (and Confessions),
It was the Joshua Landis site that I rejected, and I do apologise to Confessions again for doing so, I was in a bit of a rush when I looked at it and only skimmed the article…
There’s no doubt that the civilians in Gaza are suffering, I haven’t tried to say otherwise, there’s also no doubt that the Israelis have killed women and children — I also haven’t tried to deny that.
Let me say it yet again — if an independent investigation finds that the IDF has deliberately and knowingly targetted civilians, they have committed a war-crime and those responsible should be held to account.
It’s also interesting to note — Confessions and Dbd in particular — the young girl in that article says that water and electricity has been restored to peoples’ homes for 6 hours a day, I know thats not much, but its not bad for a war zone.
I’ve started reading the article you’ve just linked to, its very similar to the one you partly posted earlier by Fincklestein…
Once again, hardly unbiased commentors…I still think the best article I’ve seen on this mess is the one Toaf posted — I hope he doesn’t mind me borrowing it
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/03/israel-attack-hamas-gaza-peace
“I’m not too sure what people mean when they say Hamas are using the population of Gaza as human shields. ”
Did you look at the video of the hamas leader that I originally linked at the top of this thread ? That should give you a pretty fair indication.
Hamas are very well aware that civilians will be killed in any Israeli response to rocket attacks from the populated areas of Gaza, they are equally aware of the effect of such deaths on world opinion. Why do you think they launch these attacks from built up areas rather than from more open ones ?
The reason I don’t agree with your London analogy is pretty simple — firstly WW2 was a very different war to the one we see here, i.e. the combattants met each other openly and in uniform, rather than one side sniping at the other from behind civilians and secondly, no munitions were being fired directly from London at Germany…
16 January, 2009 at 11:02 am
Gav, it seems we agree that using WP to provide cover for advancing infantry in open ground or desert warfare is one thing. But in a densely populated urban area it is impossible to use them for this purpose alone, the secondary incendiary effects are unavoidable.
The IDF’s line that the intent of the weapons use being more important than the outcome is pure sophistry, and doesnt make its use any less illegal or immoral.
In any legal system in the world, the outcome of an action is at least as important as the intent.
(eg. If a bouncer accidently kills a guy while controlling a situation, he is still held responsible for the death, despite it not being his intent)
’so the IDF is not yet an occupying army…occupation is after the battle.’
Fair enough in this case.
But i still think Israel have been in breach in the recent past when blocking food aid, cutting water supply, sewerage and power etc to occupied territory. Perhaps a legal loophole can be found to rationilise this breach of international law.
“Obviously firing on red cross/crescent vehicles is a violation of military conventions and if guilty of doing so, those responsible should be held to account.”
The Red Cross are currently pulling out of Gaza, because of Israeli attacks on their ambulences. Israels justification? They have accused Hamas of hiding gunment in red cresent ambulances.
I wonder how these people CAN be held to account, considering Israels refusal to accept the authority of the UNSC and their flouting of international law?
16 January, 2009 at 11:27 am
Hi Gavin,
I agree that the conflicts are very different and that indeed Palestinian soldiers don’t necessarily wear uniforms. I’ve not yet seen your video – I’m at work and this is about all I can do at the moment – but I’ll take the opportunity to have a look this evening.
It still seems to me that the fact that the Hamas leadership do not find an empty field to sit in does not mean they are using the Gazans as “Human Shields”. They are still the elected government of the Strip and as such could be expected to reside there.
I’m presuming that this is the thrust of those who claim that Hamas are using the Gazans as Human shields; it rather misses the the point that Hamas are the Gazan Government.
That it is an extremely densely populated area is beside the point.
Finckelstein and IAJV, while they have an agenda (and who does not? I could as easily claim Dershowitz has one, as does ), do seem to have their facts straight.
Regards,
Greg
16 January, 2009 at 11:27 am
Hello DBd
Absolutely agree with you on the use of WP in Gaza, or any other populated area.
Also agreed on the ambulances, although it is also true that they have been used in the past for the purpose Israel is claiming, not only by Hamas, but also by Hesbollah and numerous other regular armies in conflicts throughout the ages — it’s a very difficult charge to prove either way.
“I wonder how these people CAN be held to account, considering Israels refusal to accept the authority of the UNSC and their flouting of international law?”
I wonder the same thing actually, the reality is they probably can’t, other than through the censure of world opinion — for whatever that’s worth.
Equally on the other hand, how can Hamas and Hesbollah terrorists be held to account when they are members of the ruling body in the territories they are operating from, who also refuse to recognise international law, and are immune to arrest by their own police forces ?
Israel carries out ‘extra-judicial executions’ on them when the opportunity arises, as Rob has pointed out, but these aren’t exactly legal under international law either…
16 January, 2009 at 11:29 am
Gavin,
Congrats on Toaf and you on finding the Guardian article; it’s a very good piece.
Regards,
Greg
16 January, 2009 at 11:35 am
Hi Greg,
I probably should clarify, in my use of the term “human shields”, I’m referring to the deliberate deployment and firing of rockets from built up areas and the attempts by the Israelis to destroy those launchers, not the location of the seat of government.
You’re right about agendas of course, it really is so hard to find balanced views on the subject of the Arab / Israeli conflicts, that’s why I liked the piece from Toaf so much, a straight commentary without any biased opinion.
16 January, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Hi Gavin,
Thanks for taking the time to clarify.
I’d put the proposition to you though that Gaza has precious few open areas for soldiers to fight from.
It’s 360 sq km; only about twice the size of Washington DC; there are (were) as of June 2008 1,500,202 people living there. It’s a densely populated place.
There are precious few areas that are not built up.
By the way, some interesting geographical, demographic and economic data from the CIA World Factbook:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gz.html
Regards,
Greg
16 January, 2009 at 12:40 pm
Hi Greg,
Yes, I know it is a tiny land area, but there is some open space, in one of the articles I read on this invasion, the journalist was interviewing a farmer who was saying that they can’t transport produce.
Obviously we aren’t talking huge holdings here, probably just an acre or 2, and of course there’s no cover for rocket launchers unlike that provided in a built up area, which means that siting even a mobile launcher in those areas would mean almost certain destruction for it.
All of which begs the earlier question about why has the Hamas government yet again chosen war, knowing that innocent civilians will be the ones in the firing line, instead of concentrating on peacefully improving the lot of its people ? I think for the answer to that you just have to refer to the Hamas charter in which it vows to continue fighting until Israel no longer exists.
16 January, 2009 at 2:01 pm
There is more balanced comment here on the civilian massacres in Gaza than there is on the comment boards of most media sites. From Time Magazine to the London Times, the vitriol against Israel is intense, relentless. Even the paid, professional commenters can’t cut through all the anti-Israel noise. In the online battle of propaganda and influence, Israel is losing, incredibly so. Even the Jerusalem Post, in a lead editorial, is now begging readers to try and spam Digg and other sites with pro-Israel stories (“look, we delivered aid!”) and spread around the standard excuses for slaughtering civilians (“What about Hamas’ rockets?” “Hamas use children as human shields” “Israel never targets civilians”). As is the same here, those standard excuses convince next to no-one that Israel has a valid reason to bomb hospitals and shoot civilians on sight.
But there is also little talk here or elsewhere of what Israel is now doing to itself, its international reputation. If Israel murders women and children, how can it be a shining beacon of democracy in the Middle East? How can any nation take Israel seriously in the United Nations anymore? Particularly after they have repeatedly shelled UN hospitals and schools? Israel cannot rely on the US, the UK or Australia to back it unquestionably anymore, in the UN or elsewhere, though Australia is still hanging in there for reasons Rudd has failed to explain.
This is a disaster for Israel on all fronts, and world leaders are losing patience and are running out of excuses. Israel has already lost most of the media, by denying any journalist access to Gaza for almost three weeks and treating the correspondents and photographers at the border like shit. The list of countries condemning Israel for what it’s doing is many times longer than the list of countries who support it.
Yesterday, Iran began shelling Israel-backed Kurds in Northern Iraq, without Bush or Obama intervening or protesting. This is not a coincidence.
And that fiasco over Olmert claiming that with one angry phone call he pulled Bush away from a speech to demand the US abstain from voting against Israel on the Gaza resolution, and got what he demanded, has infuriated both the White House and State Department. We’re talking livid reactions to Olmert’s lies here. Livni has been summoned to Washington to answer for the slaughter in Gaza and, presumably, to apologise to her friend, Dr Rice.
What sort of lunatics are they to purposely try and piss off the US right now? The assumption is that Obama is already in Israel’s pocket, but the American people are clearly turning against Israel over the massacres of all those women and children. Obama might not find it as easy as Bush did to ignore Israel’s crimes against humanity.
16 January, 2009 at 2:07 pm
Hi Gavin,
I don’t want to let this discussion to degenerate into a debate on infantry tactics and whether there is a suitable plot of farmland that international law would regard as suitable for the staging of hostilities. It’s profitless.
As to whether Hamas has chosen war, let me remind you that Hamas chose to abide by the cease-fire that they entered into with Israeli and managed pretty effectively to impose that ceasefire on all the armed groups operating in Gaza to the extent that:
(Quoting from the IJAV article I referenced earlier)
“Consider now 2008. Using Israeli government figures, from January through May, there were perhaps more than 200 rockets fired at Israel each month on average. However, in June there began a decline – which is attributable to the ceasefire Israel and Hamas agreed upon. This ceasefire was to include Israel easing its blockade of Gaza, and also ceasing its own fire – conditions Israel substantially reneged upon. From July through October, there were perhaps 3 rockets and 3 mortars fired on average each month. Plainly, Hamas was fairly effective in securing almost completely an end to rockets fired at Israel. Even Ehud Barak, it should be noted, had in August hailed the truce for halting the barrage. This was despite Israel’s continued detention of its own elected representatives, despite Israel’s continuing occupation, despite Israel’s continued blockade of Gaza, which has brought tremendous suffering to the entire population.”
I agree with you that the Hamas charter is an ugly document, but again refer you to a relevant quote from the IAJV website:
Alhadeff is right to note how ugly – and also, anti-Semitic – Hamas’s disgusting charter is. Indeed, there are many things that we can – and should – dislike about Hamas. However, it is not so plain that he accurately represents what Hamas may or may not consider as the root of its conflict with Israel. Merely sticking to published statements by its members, it is plain that Alhadeff has cherry picked its ugliest rhetoric from 20 years ago, ignoring signs of its increasing moderation, and moves towards accepting a two-state solution. The byline of a recent op ed in the Guardian by a Hamas official ran, “We are not engaged in a religious conflict with Jews; this is a political struggle to free ourselves from occupation and oppression”.
Regards,
Greg
16 January, 2009 at 2:17 pm
GavinM take the blinkers off mate. Once again Norman Finkelstein breaks it down into rational logic:
“The record is fairly clear. You can find it on the Israeli website, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs website. Israel broke the ceasefire by going into Gaza and killing six or seven Palestinian militants. At that point—and now I’m quoting the official Israeli website—Hamas retaliated or, in retaliation for the Israeli attack, then launched the missiles.”
Israel On Peace with its neighbours:
“Every year, the United Nations General Assembly votes on a resolution entitled “Peaceful Settlement of the Palestine Question.” And every year the vote is the same: it’s the whole world on one side; Israel, the United States and some South Sea atolls and Australia on the other side. The vote this past year was 164-to-7. Every year since 1989—in 1989, the vote was 151-to-3, the whole world on one side, the United States, Israel and the island state of Dominica on the other side. ”
Before you resort t”but Hamas is committed to Israels destruction” line, consider this:
“The record shows that in every crucial issue raised at Camp David, then under the Clinton parameters, and then in Taba, at every single point, all the concessions came from the Palestinians. Israel didn’t make any concessions. Every concession came from the Palestinians. The Palestinians have repeatedly expressed a willingness to settle the conflict in accordance with international law. ”
“The law is very clear. July 2004, the highest judicial body in the world, the International Court of Justice, ruled Israel has no title to any of the West Bank and any of Gaza. They have no title to Jerusalem. Arab East Jerusalem, according to the highest judicial body in the world, is occupied Palestinian territory. The International Court of Justice ruled all the settlements, all the settlements in the West Bank, are illegal under international law. ”
“Now, the important point is, on all those questions, the Palestinians were willing to make concessions. They made all the concessions. Israel didn’t make any concessions.”
One doesnt choose to resist an occupying power. It is necessary for ones survival. Do the Palestinians not have the right to peace and security? Do they not have the right to protect their children? Do they not have the right to return to the houses and property stolen in the Nakba of 1948, which was essentially an ethnic cleansing program implemented to usher in a State drawn by racial lines?
Hamas didnt CHOOSE to have over 1000 gaza citizens murdered by the State of Israel.
(I wholeheartedly apologise for the pea brain remark it was out of line. I let emotion get the better of me.)
16 January, 2009 at 3:09 pm
‘All of which begs the earlier question about why has the Hamas government yet again chosen war’
Considering that it was Israel who actualy broke the ceasefire, its probably more appropriate to ask why Israel have yet again chosen war.
16 January, 2009 at 3:49 pm
Hello Darryl,
I agree with your post almost completely, the only exception I would make is that I don’t agree that Israel is “murdering” women and children — the implication of murder is that it is a deliberate act, and I just don’t believe that Israel is deliberately targetting any civilians — if it is proven by independent investigation that they are doing so, those responsible should be brought to account — I’m pretty sure I said that in my reply to DBd — and elsewhere…
Greg and Adrian,
I’ve read both of those articles at different sources, Finckelstein — along with the execrable Loewenstein — is a fearless and extreme critic of Israel, from the safety of the United States — I guess the knowledge that a rocket isn’t going to land in your loungeroom does give you a certain sense of security and makes it so much easier to criticise those who face that possibility on a daily basis, so any opinion he offers has to be taken in that context, as far as his “rational logic” is concerned, as I was reading the article, the further I read through it, the more hysterical a rant it seemed to become.
His reference to the Palestinians making “all the concessions” interested me — I’m wondering what those concessions were, he didn’t offer any evidence of them.
To be honest, I’m not sure what we’re arguing here — I’ve already said that Israel isn’t blameless, I’ve asked only that we wait for independent assessment before we start finding them guilty of war-crimes, I would have thought that was fairly reasonable. And I have stated that Hamas is using human shields, a fact that Abbas himself has proudly stated — which shows you the sort of psycopath Israel is having to deal with.
As to who first broke the cease-fire, that’s a very debatable point, I’d suggest that the firing of just one rocket was a breach…Also I’m pretty sure that one of the conditions was that Hamas was to cease smuggling weapons, along with the digging of a tunnel towards Israel, what was the purpose of that tunnel going to be I wonder ?
“Hamas didnt CHOOSE to have over 1000 gaza citizens murdered by the State of Israel.”
Perhaps not, but they did CHOOSE to launch a barrage of rockets at Israeli civilians knowing full well that any response from Israel would result in Palestinian civilian deaths, and as per my reply to Darryl, there is no evidence that has “murdered” anyone.
As I’ve said before, if you want to blame anyone for murder, you should be looking at those who deliberately fire rockets from built up areas into their neighbours’ civilian suburbs and then hide behind women and children. Not only murderers, but cowards as well.
16 January, 2009 at 3:52 pm
Hi DBd,
I think the question of who actually broke the ceasefire is still open to debate.
The usual terms of a ceasefire is for all hostile activity to be halted, Hamas continued to launch rockets at Israel virtually from day 1, as well as continued to arm itself and dig a tunnel towards Israel…I would suggest that all of these acts constitute a breach.
16 January, 2009 at 4:14 pm
Hi Gavin,
I’d really dispute the point that Hamas never kept the ceasefire.
I think that Hamas showed every intention of good faith in fairly effectivly in securing almost completely an end to rockets fired at Israel – that they did not succeed in totally eliminating all rocket fire simply tells me that either there are undisciplined members within Hamas who would not accept the discipline the organisation was trying to impose or that Hamas is not the only armed actor in Gaza.
If you’ll remember, the ceasefire was to include Israel easing its blockade of Gaza, and also ceasing its own fire – conditions Israel substantially reneged upon.
I’m not sure what purpose ad hominem attacks on Fincklestein (whose agenda is common knowlege) anf Loewenstein (likewise) acheive other than to muddy the waters.
Regards,
Greg
16 January, 2009 at 4:25 pm
A long time ago someone on this thread criticised Israel for not accepting the UNHRC resolution on this conflict, perhaps this article might provide some clue as to why they didn’t :
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/About+the+Ministry/MFA+Spokesman/2009/Spokesman+statements/Israel_rejects_resolution_UN_Human_Rights_Council_12-Jan-2009.htm
Although it’s from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs website, the information it contains and the quote from Kofi Anan are easily verifiable from other sources.
16 January, 2009 at 4:29 pm
‘If you’ll remember, the ceasefire was to include Israel easing its blockade of Gaza, and also ceasing its own fire – conditions Israel substantially reneged upon.’
If Israel want others to abide by treaties or international laws, they must also abide by them.
They simply have no place playing the victim in this current conflict.
16 January, 2009 at 4:33 pm
Hi Greg,
“I’m not sure what purpose ad hominem attacks on Fincklestein (whose agenda is common knowlege) anf Loewenstein (likewise) acheive other than to muddy the waters.”
My reference to them was more for Adrian than yourself, he has used links referring to articles from Finckelstein and a video from Loewenstein in previous posts here.
I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on the breach of the ceasefire — as I said, I still think it’s debatable as to who did what first…Did Israel’s not ceasing the blockade or Hamas’ smuggling of weapons come first ?
I’ll admit I’m not sure, and I bet not too many others here would know for certain either.
16 January, 2009 at 4:34 pm
Hi DBd,
My timing is atrocious, please see above in my answer to Greg…
16 January, 2009 at 4:36 pm
Hello Again DBd,
“If Israel want others to abide by treaties or international laws, they must also abide by them.
They simply have no place playing the victim in this current conflict”
Same could be said for Hamas, wouldn’t you say ?
16 January, 2009 at 6:18 pm
‘Same could be said for Hamas, wouldn’t you say?’
Not really.
Israel are the aggressor, and they spent almost the entire ‘cease fire’ blocking fuel, food and electricity supplies into Gaza in defiance of the very treaty they demanded that Hamas abide by.
They have just today shelled the UN headquarters and set fire to UN warehouses full of fuel, food and other aid worth 10’s of millions of dollars. The UN are withdrawing their people for their own safety.
(theage.com.au/world/fury-as-israel-hits-un-20090116-7iga.html)
Its one thing for an oppressed and persecuted people to play victim. But for the most powerful army in the region to do so after initiating the attack, and then systematically disobeying the UNSC and the LOAC is patently ridiculous.
In the link you provide, Israel basically discounts UN critisism as being due to an anti Israeli bias in the UN, rather than accepting that their own actions may have caused the critisism.
“…fixation on Israel has become a deplorable characteristic of the UNHRC. It is thereby exposed once again as an organization that is being exploited…”
It also reiterates Israels requirement that Hamas obey international law and cease using civilians as human shields, while completely ignoring UN calls for them to obey the exact same set of laws!
‘it ignores the blatant exploitation, in violation of international law, of the civilian population…’
I really am suprised that you cant see how hypocritical this is.
16 January, 2009 at 8:36 pm
OT but still timmy related. this time looks gigglers.
http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/the_face_of_climate_change/
i’ve always said if i looked like tim blair i wouldn’t be so quick to pay out on other people’s appearance. and check out the comments – typical rightard hatred and loathing. and i ask yet again: why isn’t timmy brave enough to post a (recent) photo of himself on his blog?
tosser!
19 January, 2009 at 8:39 am
Hello Dbd,
As I’ve said previously, I reckon the question of who is the aggressor, is open to debate…Hamas continued firing rockets into Israel from the moment the ceasefire was signed, it doesn’t matter if its 1 or 1000 rockets, to continue firing was a breach.
It can also be said that the continued smuggling of weapons by Hamas was an act of aggression in breach of the ceasefire, as was their digging of a tunnel into Israel.
As to the UNHRC, given the countries that make up the contravening council of this body, I’m not surprised that Israel refuses to acknowledge it’s findings, however, you may have missed it in my earlier reply, but I did say that I didn’t think this was sufficient reason for Israel to boycott it.
“It also reiterates Israels requirement that Hamas obey international law and cease using civilians as human shields, while completely ignoring UN calls for them to obey the exact same set of laws!
‘it ignores the blatant exploitation, in violation of international law, of the civilian population…’ ”
Please show me evidence of Israel using its citizens as human shields.
Perhaps you could have a go at my question about what you think Israel should do about the terrorists, both Hamas and Hesbollah, who continue to attack it ?
It’s a genuine question on my part — clearly full-scale invasion isn’t really appropriate, nor, under international law, as Rob has pointed out before, are the targetted extra-judicial executions of them. I also can’t see the respective Hamas or Hesbollah governments placing their own operatives under arrest.
Hi Confessions,
I’m not familiar with Henry Waxman, first time I’ve seen or heard of him, but I guess for some people, if they disagree with someone but are unable to logically refute what that person says, all they can do is hurl insults…
I reckon it’s a pretty sad reflection which says more about those people than it does about the target of their derision.
19 January, 2009 at 9:11 am
Gavin you’re incredibly biased and one eyed. If you want to see some insults I suggest you go to the Blair site and read the comments confessions linked to.
btw: “I reckon it’s a pretty sad reflection which says more about those people than it does about the target of their derision.”
Is an insult and it says a lot about you.
Glamour boy Tim can post a picture of himself at anytime so we can all see from what great heights of beauty he is casting his stones.
19 January, 2009 at 9:50 am
Hi Gavin,
I think that Hamas all but stopping the rocketry (97% down on the months before the ceasefire) going out of Gaza is at least a pretty decent show of good faith and when you consider that Hamas are not the only armed actor in Gaza; contrast that with Israels’ continued blockade of the Gazans which they had promised to lift as part of their side of the ceasefire deal.
Whilst it could be said that Hamas’ continuation of military activities could be taken as a species of ill-faith, you’d not by the same token have demanded israel suspend all military activity/preparation in the same period, would you? Why then ought Hamas?
A cynical part of me thinks that Sderot is very convenient to Israel. I think it suits Israeli policy admirably to have a place they can troop visiting journalists and foreign politicians through to make their case. I think it suits them to have a population in peril; is this an example of using civilians as human shields? Israel has not scrupled to use them before on the West Bank when conducting house to house searches: http://tinyurl.com/9uk9hj
Regards,
Greg
19 January, 2009 at 10:08 am
Windrider,
Read my post again please — see if you can understand plain English the second time around.
Hi Greg,
“I think that Hamas all but stopping the rocketry (97% down on the months before the ceasefire)…”
As I said, 1 rocket is a breach of a ceasefire…
“Whilst it could be said that Hamas’ continuation of military activities could be taken as a species of ill-faith, you’d not by the same token have demanded israel suspend all military activity/preparation in the same period, would you? Why then ought Hamas?”
Perhaps not, but given that the cessation of the smuggling of weapons was one of the terms of the ceasefire, I’d say that continuing to do so was also a breach. The digging of the tunnel into Israel, which clearly was in preparation for launching raids was also clearly an aggressive action and therefore another breach.
I think you’re being a little too cynical re Siderot, I don’t believe any government wants its citizens to be living in constant fear of daily rocket attacks.
I’ve also seen the reports you linked to of Israeli soldiers using Palestinians as human shields, disgraceful, but I was unable to find any information about wether or not those responsible were punished for it…Hopefully they were, but who knows ?
19 January, 2009 at 12:05 pm
Read my post again please — see if you can understand plain English the second time around.
errr … that’s still an insult Gavin.
19 January, 2009 at 1:06 pm
Windrider,
For your benefit — I can’t believe I have to explain this to you…
I was agreeing with Confessions that Waxman — (or for that matter, anybody else) — should not be judged on his looks, and that doing so reflects badly on those making the remarks — as I said, people often start hurling insults when they can’t present a logical argument to refute what someone is saying….See below again:
“I reckon it’s a pretty sad reflection which says more about those people than it does about the target of their derision.”
In an earlier post you called me disingenuous, yet this is the second time you have taken a quote from me out of context and used it to falsely accuse me of saying or doing something I haven’t said…I’m also still awaiting either an apology from you for your earlier accusation that I have told lies, or some evidence of where I have done so.
19 January, 2009 at 2:12 pm
Gavin I am not going to apoligize to you. You insult people and then accuse others of using insult.
19 January, 2009 at 2:48 pm
“As I’ve said previously, I reckon the question of who is the aggressor, is open to debate…Hamas continued firing rockets into Israel from the moment the ceasefire was signed, it doesn’t matter if its 1 or 1000 rockets, to continue firing was a breach.”
Before any rocket was fired There was The Occupation. Before the Intifada There was The Occupation. Before Palestinians “reneged” on Camp David There was The Occupation. The Occupation precedes everything. Occupation is Institutionalised aggression.
Remember also that Israel launched Operation Cast Lead at 11:30 am on Dec 27. This is acknowledged as being the time when a lot of Palestinian children are in the streets on their way to school. They have created a new generation of Resistance fighters.
19 January, 2009 at 3:10 pm
Adrian,
I thought we were discussing the current conflict…We could go back to 1948 and beyond if you really want to.
I do agree with you though that this will achieve nothing but continued resentment towards Israel and a new generation of terrorists.
19 January, 2009 at 3:14 pm
You cant discuss the current conflict without the ongoing injustices suffered by the Palestinians. They are connected. Here read this gotta go to work.
http://www.amconmag.com/article/2009/jan/26/00006/
Its a conservative magazine, not a HAMAS mouthpiece.
19 January, 2009 at 3:45 pm
Fine Windrider,
You have been caught out and are now merely trolling me, I’m happy to let the other posters on the thread decide who of us is being disingenuous and telling lies…..
And which of us opened his comments to the other initially with an insult..
19 January, 2009 at 3:58 pm
Hello Adrian,
Try not to work too hard…
I’ve already acknowledged, often, on this thread that Israel isn’t blameless in this…I don’t know how many more times I have to say it. That’s why I said earlier that the only way forward for both parties is through peaceful negotiation…Unfortuneately I can’t see that happening for a long time, there are too many hawks on both sides.
19 January, 2009 at 9:51 pm
I reckon it’s a pretty sad reflection which says more about those people than it does about the target of their derision.
me too, but so typical of tim blair and his kind. Al Gore is fat therefore his AGW theories are to be discredited. or so and so is ugly therefore their view plainly wrong!
well timmy isn’t shy of a few extra kilos (maybe that’s why they always seat him in Piers Ackermans seat on Insiders, it’s already moulded to a fattie), and is hardly what I’d call a looker, so according to blair’s logic people should discredit everything he writes.
this is joe-the-plumber-style opinion writing. be careful what you poke fun at timmy, it often bites when it comes back to you!
20 January, 2009 at 8:03 am
‘Perhaps you could have a go at my question about what you think Israel should do about the terrorists, both Hamas and Hesbollah, who continue to attack it?’
Hi Gav.
I really dont have any answesr to this question. Treating terrorism as a law enforcement issue rather than a military one would probably be a good start.
Israel would have to be a lot more careful about how they went after people, and when dealing with individuals or small groups as criminals (rather than dealing with the whole population as enemy combatants) they would be sure to recieve greater cooperation/ leeway from the Palestinians, liberal jews in the US and Israel, and the international community in general.
However, i do agree with Adrian that the current conflict needs to be seen in its historical context. You know the saying, those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. So it isnt really fair to critisise Adrian for attemting to do so.
I know you have already voiced your opinion on the illegality of the occupation, but an interesting link regardless, is to a group called Yesh Din.
It is an organisation that tries to get the Israeli legal system to proscecute settlers for attacks on Palestinians, to take seriously IDF abuses of Palestinian civilians and to consider the reasons behined the rocket attacks and violent Palestinian resistance, rather than just reacting to them.
Some ofYesh Dins founding members include:
Shulamit Aloni. Lecturer on human rights. Former Israeli minister of education and culture, minister of communications, minister of science and arts. Recipient of the Israel Prize for special lifetime contribution to Israeli society.
Michael Ben Yair. Lawyer. Former attorney general of the State of Israel.
Colonel (Ret.) Paul Kedar. Former Israeli consul in New York; head of Ministry of Defense delegation to Europe; IDF attaché to Turkey. Member of Beyt Hatfusot founders; director of Shlomi’s Community Center.
General (Ret.) Shlomo Lahat. Former mayor of Tel Aviv-Jaffa.
General (Ret.) Shlomo Gazit. Former Head of Military Intelligence.
(.yesh-din.org/site/index.php?page=about.us&lang=en)
20 January, 2009 at 11:34 am
Hi DBd,
” really dont have any answesr to this question. Treating terrorism as a law enforcement issue rather than a military one would probably be a good start.”
If the terrorists were based in an area under Israeli police jurisdiction, I’d agree with you, however, as they are based in areas that belong to the governing bodies of which they are members, I suspect that’s never going to happen.
I wasn’t really criticising Adrian for bringing up the past, he, and you are quite correct in that the past holds context for this current conflict, but how far back should we go…Adrian suggests the occupation, but clearly this goes back to 1947 and the establishment of Israel after WW2.
I’ve been trying to limit my discussion to this invasion being Israel’s response to the current rocket attacks, and wether or not this response was justified.
I’ve heard of Yesh Din, they seem to be well worth supporting, they certainly have an impressive line-up of members, I truly hope they can achieve their aims, but unfortuneately I fear they face an uphill battle against the established policies of successive Israeli governments.
20 January, 2009 at 12:04 pm
Hi Gavin,
You make the point (and I hope these fancy html things work):
If the terrorists were based in an area under Israeli police jurisdiction, I’d agree with you, however, as they are based in areas that belong to the governing bodies of which they are members, I suspect that’s never going to happen.
I believe this point is a little mistaken insofar as the govening bodies of the Occupied Territories are not soverign; they are completely subject to the desires of Israel. Therefore the Occupied Territories are already under the jurisdiction of the Israeli police.
Regards,
Greg
20 January, 2009 at 3:57 pm
Hi Greg,
I’m pretty sure that Israel has no jurisdiction in Lebanon, so their police force can’t touch Hesbollah.
As to Gaza, I believe that since their withdrawal in 2005 Israel no longer has jurisdiction there…I could well be wrong on that though, I’m trying to find some info on the net, but all I’ve found so far is an interim agreement that was made in 1995, I’m pretty sure it’s out of date — I’ll keep looking.
20 January, 2009 at 4:18 pm
Hi Gavin,
I had thought that we were limiting this discussion to the Gaza Strip.
Israel can do whatever it likes in the Occupied Territories.
It’s not complicated.
The Palestinians in the Occupied Territories are in a state equivalent to slavery. The Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza are not sovereigns. Israel has supreme authority in both areas. That means it can do literally whatever it likes to their inhabitants. This population has no political input whatever into their sovereign’s decisions; the Palestinians in the occupied territories can’t vote in Israeli elections. So the Israeli government has absolute power over these people, and they have no say at all in how they are treated.
Regards,
Greg
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