By Jeremy
There was a rally in Melbourne over the weekend against the military strikes by Israel on Gaza recently.
Protests not exactly having a door policy, naturally some angry people showed up with signs saying some stupid and offensive things. Like a woman driven so mad with outrage at Israel’s decision to adopt Hamas philosophy in favour of bombing civilians that she actually produced and displayed a sign suggesting that Nazis should exterminate the Jews. Complete with Nazi-style swastika.
Nilk from Right Wing Death Bogan was there with a camera. Her text underneath:
“As we can see, this sign was rather popular for the photographers. Child in hijab, mother in niqab. I spoke to a policeman about this sign, but by the time I got him here to show him, the sign had been damaged. He said the crowd wouldn’t support her message anyway, and I disagreed. No way a crowd shouting “allahu akhbar” is going to disagree with this woman.”
Because of course being Arabic and declaring “God is Great” is the same as supporting the Holocaust, obviously.
Note that the sign had been damaged before Nilk could return with a policeman, and it’s the only one she apparently saw expressing such a sentiment… Still, we all know how much lefties love the Nazis, so naturally tim Blair decided that the sign was representative enough to sum up the rally:
NAZIS NEEDED
Via Nilk, images of yesterday’s Hamas rally in Melbourne…
And he prominently republished the Nazi sign photograph (and no others).
Strangely, given tim’s description, Nilk didn’t get shots of any signs even mentioning Hamas at the “Hamas rally”. Pretty piss-poor branding exercise if Hamas’ supporters won’t even mention it when surrounded by allies. Maybe they need to get themselves some better agitators.
Still, let’s not get bogged down with trivialities like “hang on, is tim trying to say that anyone critical of Israel’s bombing of civilians in Gaza must logically support Hamas’ bombing of civilians in Israel and therefore also want another Holocaust? Really? Is he that batshit insane?”. Or “he’s not suggesting that some mad woman who wants to kill innocent people somehow represents thousands of people protesting against the killing of innocent people, is he?”
The important thing to get out of tim’s thorough and comprehensive analysis of the rally is that some stupid woman there had a pro-Nazi sign, and Nilk got a photograph of her. YOU DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS.
That way we can ignore the content of the rally and what the thousands of people not carrying pro-Nazi signs or in any way supporting Hamas, were actually saying.
After all, if this crazy woman didn’t speak for the thousands there, they wouldn’t have let her get up on stage and make a speech, and they wouldn’t have cheered enthusiastically at her sign. What’s that – they didn’t? They appear to have actively discouraged her from displaying the sign any more? Oh.
tim, Nilk and I will pretend you didn’t point that out.
168 Comments
19 January, 2009 at 7:19 pm
Nilk sounds like a bit of a fuckwit.
We already know tim is.
19 January, 2009 at 7:29 pm
The important thing to get out of tim’s thorough and comprehensive analysis of the rally is that some stupid woman there had a pro-Nazi sign, and Nilk got a photograph of her. YOU DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS.
BRAINS NEEDED.
especially when you read some of the comments.
19 January, 2009 at 7:30 pm
READERS UNSURPRISED.
19 January, 2009 at 8:33 pm
Actually, I might be doing a left/right podcast with Nilk, if we can ever arrange a mutually convenient time.
19 January, 2009 at 8:55 pm
Oh dear.
19 January, 2009 at 9:27 pm
LOL Thanks, Bron. I’ll add that to being ashamed to call myself a christian, being a racist, bigot, godbotherer, jesusfreak and nazi.
Oh, and a fascist. :)
Seriously, tell me what you really think.
As for the actual rally, yes there were plenty of people there happy to say that hamas weren’t very nice, and are only doing what they have to.
The weaselling starts with, hamas are bad, but the Israelis are worse.
The Israelis shouldn’t be fighting back, because even though hamas were bombing all through the last 6 months anyway, Israel have bigger weapons.
Funny thing, though, if Israel are so evil and intent on committing genocide against the poor, oppressed palestinians, why hasn’t Israel nuked them yet?
That would solve the problem quick smart.
And why do Israeli hospitals take in palestinians when they are sick?
And why does Israel build bomb shelters to protect their children while the palestinians don’t?
Those questions never seem to get answered.
I was there, and I had wanted to take a sign of my own, or wear a tshirt supporting Israel, but I had a sneaking suspicion that I might be in for a literal beating if I’d done that.
There were few police, so no help there.
What’s a girl to do?
Here’s a pic from someone on the other side.
here.
19 January, 2009 at 9:38 pm
actually re-reading timmy’s facile join-teh-dots, some of the racist comments at timmy’s together with Nilk’s feeble explanation above, I wish to revise my conclusion to:
SIMPLETONS ABOUND
As for the actual rally, yes there were plenty of people there happy to say that hamas weren’t very nice, and are only doing what they have to.
enough said, funny how that only gets aired here though.
19 January, 2009 at 11:19 pm
“Funny thing, though, if Israel are so evil and intent on committing genocide against the poor, oppressed palestinians, why hasn’t Israel nuked them yet? That would solve the problem quick smart.”
You’re totally fucking insane. You know that, don’t you?
It’s very telling that, in your own words, you think the Palestinians are a “problem” that can only be solved by the detonation of weapons of the ultimate mass destruction.
Tell the truth, you didn’t wear a pro-Israel shirt because you knew nobody there would physically assault you and then you’d have nothing else to report other than a big, scary sign and that some people shouted nasty things at you.
20 January, 2009 at 4:59 am
Yup, I guess I am insane.
A bunch of people vote in a group who, apart from building a few hospitals and appearing less corrupt than their opposition also happen to declare they are going to wipe out their neighbour.
Why on earth would I want to support these people?
They get millions of dollars in aid every year, Israel also supplies them with electricity and supplies (not like muslim Egypt), and still they want to kill the jews.
I notice the fact that this sign exists at all in Melbourne doesn’t seem to phase you.
It should.
20 January, 2009 at 5:00 am
And it’s too bloody early today. I can’t believe I spelled “faze” wrong.
Damn! Where’s my coffee?
20 January, 2009 at 5:09 am
Geez,
It’s amazing how angry some lefties get so angry when facts are pointed out to them which undermine their beliefs. They react to facts the way vampires react to sunlight.
Indeed, when one reacts to facts and logical reasoning with “You’re totally fucking insane. You know that, don’t you?”, you know that the person who says that is completely unable to tolerate different viewpoints.
Darryl, other people have the right to disagree with you. The fact that they disagree with you does not make them insane, evil or even stupid. You need to learn how to tolerate other people’s opinions if you don’t want to be a bigot for the rest of your life.
“the problem” that Nilk referred to was obviously the committing of terrorist attacks by some Palestinians. I really don’t know how you were able to interpret “the problem” as being the Palestinian people as a whole that can only be “solved” using nuclear weapons.
Finally, there’s this statement you made:
“Tell the truth, you didn’t wear a pro-Israel shirt because you knew nobody there would physically assault you and then you’d have nothing else to report other than a big, scary sign and that some people shouted nasty things at you.”
Given that many Muslims become very violent when cartoons of their prophet, or when the Pope criticises their religion, or when people write novels which poke fun at Islam (“The Satanic Verses”), Nilk had every reason to be concerned for her safety.
But given how hysterical you are yourself when confronted with conservative views, my guess is that if she had worn the shirt and been harmed, that would not have concerned you in the slightest.
Other people have views different to yours. Deal with it.
20 January, 2009 at 5:31 am
It’s amazing how angry some lefties get so angry when facts are pointed out to them which undermine their beliefs.
Says he with a blog devoted to “pwning” those with whom he disagrees.
20 January, 2009 at 6:30 am
Like a woman driven so mad with outrage at Israel’s decision to adopt Hamas philosophy in favour of bombing civilians that she actually produced and displayed a sign suggesting that Nazis should exterminate the Jews.
Of course. Israel drove her to it. Or could she just be an irrational bigot?
I can’t imagine you explaining that these types of assholes “were driven so mad with outrage at the violence in Africa that they actually produced and displayed a sign suggesting extermination.”
20 January, 2009 at 7:18 am
Nilk – “The weaselling starts with, hamas are bad, but the Israelis are worse.”
There’s an argument to be made that Israel is in a better position to stop the violence, since it’s actually a functioning, well-funded government that could use the money to build rather than destroy. Hamas is just a group of nutters who’ve only been elected to power in Gaza because Fatah were even more corrupt and bankrupt. It’s not like the Palestinians had a huge choice.
If there’s any hope for peace in the region that isn’t imposed from outside, it’s really only Israel that can do it. You expect more of the person in a better position.
Nonetheless, I’m not going to defend either side for killing children – it is never acceptable. No matter what the other side has done. Full stop.
“The Israelis shouldn’t be fighting back, because even though hamas were bombing all through the last 6 months anyway, Israel have bigger weapons.”
They shouldn’t be bombing civilian areas, no. There’s a process for dealing with nutters over the border, and strikes on homes is not one of them.
“Funny thing, though, if Israel are so evil and intent on committing genocide against the poor, oppressed palestinians, why hasn’t Israel nuked them yet?”
That’s a very odd argument. It’s okay because they could’ve done something worse? Really?
“That would solve the problem quick smart.”
You can’t seriously be advocating something like that. Certainly not intending to retain any kind of moral authority. I thought you said you were a Christian?
“And why do Israeli hospitals take in palestinians when they are sick?”
Because Israeli doctors are better human beings than the people giving the IDF orders?
“And why does Israel build bomb shelters to protect their children while the palestinians don’t?”
Resources?
“Those questions never seem to get answered.”
I think you’ll find they do.
20 January, 2009 at 7:20 am
“Says he with a blog devoted to “pwning” those with whom he disagrees.”
Toaf, there’s a difference between attacking someone’s ideas and attacking them personally.
I only do the latter when someone has been rude to me first.
But it’s so funny to watch leftists get wound up when you do the former….
20 January, 2009 at 7:21 am
“Of course. Israel drove her to it. Or could she just be an irrational bigot?
I can’t imagine you explaining that these types of assholes “were driven so mad with outrage at the violence in Africa that they actually produced and displayed a sign suggesting extermination.”
Obviously she’s an irrational bigot. Equally obviously, the prompt for that sign was the recent killing of civilians by the IDF, which she apparently can’t distinguish from Jewish people in general. (A fault I’ve seen more prominently displayed by rightwingers recently.)
Your analogy is facile – clearly the “violence in Africa” had nothing to do with the KKK’s determination to kill black people.
20 January, 2009 at 7:22 am
“But it’s so funny to watch leftists get wound up when you do the former….”
Tell me this, Leon – why when criticising a post on this blog not written by me did you illustrate it (and continue to illustrate it) with an enormous photo of me?
20 January, 2009 at 7:24 am
“There’s an argument to be made that Israel is in a better position to stop the violence, since it’s actually a functioning, well-funded government that could use the money to build rather than destroy”
Jeremy, do you honestly believe that if Israel gave more money or built some infrastructure for the Palestinians, that would end the terrorist attacks against Israel?
That seems pretty far-fetched, to say the least.
I don’t think you can blame Israel for there being no peace when she is continually being threatened or attacked by terrorist groups dedicated to destroying her.
20 January, 2009 at 7:27 am
“Tell me this, Leon – why when criticising a post on this blog not written by me did you illustrate it (and continue to illustrate it) with an enormous photo of me?”
Well he was one of your associates, and I didn’t have a picture of him.
20 January, 2009 at 7:37 am
There are plenty of pictures online of pro-Israel supporters holding up signs like “WIPE OUT GAZA”, so a few antisemitic placards here and there shouldn’t be any more of an issue. Palestinians after all are being shot like fish in a barrel — when they’re not being dispossessed, starved and humiliated.
Similarly, there are plenty of pictures online of women and children blown to bits (not seen in the press here but screened across the Middle East by al-Jazeera). But instead of acknowledging the massacre, a few right-wing loonies (like Alan Howe in the Herald Sun) choose to highlight a bloodless Reuters photograph of a Palestinian man being dragged into a Gaza hospital — a photo that may or may not have been faked.
This reprehensible form of denial is similar to the hoo-haa that surrounded a photo of a shrapnel-riddled ambulance in Lebanon in 2006 (another asymmetrical “war” that killed over 1000). Essentially, it’s meant to prove that the death toll has been faked or exaggerrated to gain worldwide sympathy (tricky territory, one would think for those who continue to milk Holocaust sympathy for all it’s worth). And all ultimately designed to whitewash Israel of responsibilty even as its US-made shells rain down.
(Think also of Tippi Livin’s jawdropping claim that “There’s no humanitarian crisis in Gaza” even as buildings were flattened and food and medical supplies denied access. The Vatican envoy compared the place to “a vast concentration camp”.)
Meanwhile, “Nilk” implicitly congratulates Israel for its restraint in not nuking the Palestinians already — there’s no other description for that but “fucking insane”.
And spare us the fatuous propaganda that Israel builds bomb shelters for its children while Hamas doesn’t — another form of denial, implying that Palestinans WANT to see their children blown to pieces by shells that happen to shot from Israeli tanks. Or that equally ridiculous “human shields” claim: apparently Hamas leaders are meant to place themselves in well-marked, isolated buildings — except that if they’d done so, they would have wiped out long ago by Israel’s “targeted assassinations” and “surgical strikes”.
Like them or loathe them, Hamas was elected democratically (for complex reasons), but rather than deal with them diplomatically the US-Israeli behemoth chose to prove what it really thinks of democracies — fine as long as they behave like quislings.
Let’s be under no illusion: Palestinians want 22% of their traditional homeland, open movement and freedom from oppression. Israel meanwhile is unable to dimantle its innumerable settlements in the West Bank or give up its land-and-resource snatching and its military control of the occupied territories. So instead of settling the matter peacefully — accepting the terms of the Arab League Proposal (the one that gives full recognition to Israel if it retreats to 1967 borders), it engages in endless war, provoking terrorists, inflaming islamists, and demonising Iran as the new Third Reich.
20 January, 2009 at 7:39 am
“There are plenty of pictures online of pro-Israel supporters holding up signs like “WIPE OUT GAZA”, ”
Show me some, then. I haven’t seen any.
20 January, 2009 at 8:08 am
Here’s one, Leon:
http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2009/01/10/01_promassacre_rally_1.jpg
And while you’re in the mood for pictures:
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=2510
20 January, 2009 at 8:47 am
Well he was one of your associates, and I didn’t have a picture of him.
So it didn’t occur to you to not use a photo at all?
Admit it, you have the hots for Jeremy.
20 January, 2009 at 9:06 am
Leon, if you also think nuking the people of Gaza will solve “the problem” of Palestinians refusing to leave their land, then you’re fucking insane as well.
20 January, 2009 at 9:06 am
There’s a process for dealing with nutters over the border, and strikes on homes is not one of them.
Despite Hamas militants hiding out in them (and schools and hospitals), cowering behind families, using them as human shields. Who are the real cowards here? Whose hands is the victims’ blood really on?
Not to mention the many, many warnings the Israeli’s gave, begging regular families to stay clear of particular areas. Hardly a good strategy for cold, clinical, callous extermination. No, clearly the IDF is trying to solely get rid of Hamas militants only. But considering the dirty tricks such militants play, the sad reality is that, mainly due to the sick tactics those Hamas militants employ, blood is on the innocents, too.
And those ‘innocents’ elected Hamas. Sure, the alternative was pretty bad too but it always is in a democracy. Never seen the ’shit sandwich/turd burger’ South Park episode?
And why is it the Palestinians had such rotten choices in the first place? Well, that’s a tragedy; that no Palestinian was welling to step up and speak out for the idea of living side by side with Israel. The people spoke and they chose a government that wants Israel gone – an untenable position considering Israel’s firepower. Pretty stupid decision on the Palestinians’ part if you ask me.
…
“That would solve the problem quick smart.” – and irony is lost on Jeremy.
So tell us, Jeremy. Israel has clearly stated again and again and again, if Hamas stops firing rockets over the border, Israel will stop any of its aggression. In fact, Israel has agreed to a ceasefire yet, still, Hamas rockets continue to land in Israel. Israel clearly stated the reason for their offensive was because Hamas simply would not stop firing rockets over the border – namely because the democratically elected Hamas wants Israel wiped out of existence.
Interesting, Jeremy et. al. how you attack an Australian suburban mum over all this but no condemnation of Farfur, Hamas, other hate preached on Gaza TV screens, especially to children, the constant bombardment of rockets Israel endures every single day from Hamas or even that it’s sick that even just one five-or-so year old little girl is obviously being indoctrinated into a mentality of irrational hate.
…
So what’s your grand solution, mate? Just sit there and attack fellow Australians, indeed mothers, like you have been on this thread instead of looking with at least some sort of skeptical eye on Hamas or what? We’re all ears, Jeremy et al.
20 January, 2009 at 9:11 am
…for those who continue to milk Holocaust sympathy for all it’s worth…
Worth not forgetting.
20 January, 2009 at 9:32 am
May I just add the following to BingBing’s long list of Hamas and Palestinian civilian war crimes that you damn dirty lefties simply refuse to acknowledge :
* Hamas strapped newborn infants to their homemade rockets (from Iran).
* Hamas fighters shot dozens of their own children through the head to make IDF soldiers look bad.
* Hamas fighters were seen on rooftops throwing children into the paths of Israel’s civilian-dodging missiles.
* Hamas smuggled at least 14 F-16s into Gaza during the fighting disguised as goats.
* Israelis gathered on nearby hills to watch the Gaza bombings were left traumatised by the echoing screams of hundreds of dying and wounded Palestine children who didn’t have the courtesy to die quietly.
Why do lefties always refuse to believe the truth?
20 January, 2009 at 10:40 am
“Interesting, Jeremy et. al. how you attack an Australian suburban mum over all this but no condemnation of Farfur, Hamas, other hate preached on Gaza TV screens, especially to children, the constant bombardment of rockets Israel endures every single day from Hamas or even that it’s sick that even just one five-or-so year old little girl is obviously being indoctrinated into a mentality of irrational hate.”
Sorry, which “Australian suburban mum” am I “attacking”? Nilk? I was responding to her political argument, I wasn’t attacking her. And I don’t think she needs you to come and defend her.
And I’ve condemned Hamas.
What should Israel do? Work to build Gaza with the Palestinians who aren’t the Hamas nutters. The Palestinian people would LOVE to be able to vote for someone interested in building rather than destroying.
20 January, 2009 at 10:47 am
Darryl Mason: i blame andrew bolt. with him away the wingnuts are forced to think for themselves and you can see from bingbing and fake QC comments that it isn’t working out so well.
20 January, 2009 at 10:55 am
More tolerance from the left!
No wonder these guys don’t mind Hamas!
20 January, 2009 at 11:07 am
tolerating hamas fake QC? if you’d read the comments you’d see that is far from the case.
actually forget it. you led people to believe you were a QC when you aren’t, in short you lied. nothing you post has any credibility.
20 January, 2009 at 12:00 pm
Okay, Leon. You’ve had your say. Now take your rantings back to your miserable little hate blog.
20 January, 2009 at 12:02 pm
The important thing to get out of tim’s thorough and comprehensive analysis of the rally is that some stupid woman there had a pro-Nazi sign, and Nilk got a photograph of her. YOU DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS.
What debate between Left and Right would there be without conflation, illogical extrapolation and the constructio of strawmen?…From both sides…
20 January, 2009 at 12:09 pm
All grist for the mill. Sooner or later some extremist nutbag from the world’s Muslim population of 1.2 billion will blow up a bus full of tourists and the extremist neocon nutbags in our press will cry “Ya see! They hate us all!” And more warmongering rhetoric about good and evil will be reeled out. And we’ll be told, “You’re either with us or against us!” And Iran will rattle its sabre. And Israel might even get a chance to nuke something. And more illegal settlements will meanwhile be constructed amid the bantusans of the West Bank, so some extremist nutbags can feel like they’re reclaiming the land God gave to them.
20 January, 2009 at 12:15 pm
The message is deplorable, but I reckon the thing that disturbs me most about that particular banner is that parents could see fit to give it to their young child to hold…
It makes me wonder what other hate filled indoctrination that young girl is being exposed to at home and what effect it will have on her when she becomes an adult and has children of her own — a vicious cycle.
I find myself having to question wether these are fit and proper parents at all. Frankly I think our Child Protection Agencies should be taking a close look.
20 January, 2009 at 12:38 pm
It’s a good point, Gav.
20 January, 2009 at 1:00 pm
There is plenty of hate to go round on all sides. Some of the graffiti left behind by IDF soldiers, along with bags of their shit, in a destroyed home in Gaza :
“Arabs need 2 die”, “Die you all”, “Make war not peace”, “1 is down, 999,999 to go”, and scrawled on an image of a gravestone the words: “Arabs 1948-2009″.
http://tinyurl.com/78fkmg
20 January, 2009 at 1:09 pm
It was a child holding that sign not a woman, but I guess that depends on how you define woman.
In some societies, unlike our own, that child is not far from marriageable age is she?
What sort of people hide behind children and/or send them out to the front line?
What sort of people support that?
20 January, 2009 at 1:58 pm
“…the extremist neocon nutbags in our press…”
Yawn…and just who would they be?
You need to update your calendar, sport.
It’s 2009…not 2002.
20 January, 2009 at 1:59 pm
You’re right of course Darryl, there is plenty of hate on both sides, however, its only my opinion but graffiti and waste left behind by soldiers, few of whom from any country are renowned for their diplomacy, particularly in combat zones – although distasteful- hardly compares to getting a, (what looks to be about 5 y.o.), child to hold a banner condoning the policies of the Nazis and calling for genocide.
20 January, 2009 at 2:29 pm
Apropos “There is plenty of hate to go round on all sides. ” – review images of pro-Israel marches in Sydney and Melbourne.
Not one banner calling for death to Muslims.
Not one flag set on fire.
Not one calling for the destruction of Palestine (notwithstanding that as yet it doesn’t exist).
Sorry, it’s a complete fantasy that there is hate on all sides, when it is only one side which has children’s television encouraging five year olds to die, while the other side’s kids watch Sesame Street.
20 January, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Nilk sounds like a bit of a fuckwit….
20 January, 2009 at 2:49 pm
Leon sounds like a bit of a fuckwit too….
20 January, 2009 at 2:51 pm
Yeah, Jane, the child made and produced the sign. The child was holding it in that photo, yes, but… that’s your gotcha?
“What sort of people hide behind children and/or send them out to the front line?”
Desperate people or tyrants.
I think it’s fairly clear that the Palestinians are more the former than the latter.
“What sort of people support that?”
No-one I’d care to know.
20 January, 2009 at 3:05 pm
How the standards have slipped.
Jeremy replies to Nilk: They shouldn’t be bombing civilian areas, no. There’s a process for dealing with nutters over the border, and strikes on homes is not one of them.
What process would that be? Asking them to stop ever so nicely? I guess you have a point – they could try.
Nilk said: “Funny thing, though, if Israel are so evil and intent on committing genocide against the poor, oppressed palestinians, why hasn’t Israel nuked them yet?”
Jeremy replies: That’s a very odd argument. It’s okay because they could’ve done something worse? Really?
No – it’s an obvious comment on the fact that they have the ability to actually carry out the genocide they are constantly being accused of, and yet don’t – ergo, the accusation is rubbish. Did you seriously not get that, or are you deliberately being obtuse?
Nilk said: “That would solve the problem quick smart.”
Jeremy replies: You can’t seriously be advocating something like that. Certainly not intending to retain any kind of moral authority. I thought you said you were a Christian?
No – she’s embellishing on the stupidity of the ‘genocide’ accusation. Jeepers – do you really need this much help?
Nilk said: “And why do Israeli hospitals take in palestinians when they are sick?”
Jeremy replies: Because Israeli doctors are better human beings than the people giving the IDF orders?
The IDF had to let them through the borders first, didn’t they, Jeremy? And that, too, requires orders.
Nilk said: “And why does Israel build bomb shelters to protect their children while the palestinians don’t?”
Jeremy replies: Resources?
How about: ‘dire need’.
Nilk said: “Those questions never seem to get answered.”
Jeremy replies: I think you’ll find they do.
Not if these replies are anything to go by. . .
20 January, 2009 at 3:07 pm
And that’s the point of this event taking place in Australia, isn’t it? However shocking and disgusting you think it is to see women and children (it would be no surprise to anyone I’m sure if the little girl really believed what someone had written on the sign for her) exercising their right to free speech, in public, you are in a country where that is allowed. For now.
You don’t have to like it, I don’t think anyone here actually believes a kid holding Jews Are Nazis signs is a positive thing, I sure as fuck don’t, but you, likewise, are also allowed to shout “Kill The Fucking Lebs” with hundreds of others at a rally, as was done at the Cronulla riot, or stand in the street with a sign that reads “Arabs Need 2 Die” if that is the point you might want to make.
The same laws that will make it illegal for a kid to hold up a pro-Nazi sign like that in public will also make it illegal to hold up a sign that reads ‘Most None-State Terror Attacks Are Carried Out By Muslims’, or ‘The Crusades Didn’t Kill Enough Arabs, Finish The Job’.
I’m frankly amazed that anyone capable of writing and posting a comment can think that this war was in anyway successful for Israel. It was an international disaster, and while Hamas rebuilds with billions from the Saudis, Israel is going to find its international aid and Buy More Weapons money dribbling down. I know Israelis were 90% behind the attacks, but the toll of civilians, and the level of international disgust, has clearly shocked many. When Hamas leaders are talking one on one with Rudd and Obama by the end of 2010, when they’re not being caroused by European leaders, it will be clear that Israel’s attacks this month only helped Hamas to work its way into the international order. Certainly not the first time this kind of thing has happened, thanks to the paradigm-changing fallout from war.
Israel’s attacks gave Hamas and the people of Gaza, it would seem, the majority of world sympathy. How is that not anything but a disaster?
Anyway, don’t you think raining bomb and rockets down on the civilians of an elected government you don’t like, killing and wounding thousands, is all a bit too 20th century, and ultimately, Hamas-like?
20 January, 2009 at 3:13 pm
Dear Jeremy,
When you march alongside someone, you eventually end up where _they’re_ going…
20 January, 2009 at 3:32 pm
richard
Could not that be applied equally to both ’sides’ in a march?
20 January, 2009 at 3:37 pm
Darryl,
Show me where I have said that this war has been a success for Israel, I think you’ll find on the other thread that I said exactly the opposite, numerous times, in fact I said numerous times that it would be another Lebanon for Israel — also show me where I said I support bombing civilians.
“Anyway, don’t you think raining bomb and rockets down on the civilians of an elected government…”
Perhaps that “elected government” should have thought about that before it chose to launch the barrage of rockets on the civilians of another elected government — (don’t know why you put that term in) — that initiated the Israeli response…You can’t have it both ways Darryl, Hamas is as guilty as Israel in this war.
“(it would be no surprise to anyone I’m sure if the little girl really believed what someone had written on the sign for her)”…
I’d be very surprised – (and dismayed) — if a girl of that age really believed the words on that banner, unless of course she had been thoroughly indoctrinated by the adults around her…You must live in a strange and disturbing world if children of her age believe in the ideals of the Nazis.
20 January, 2009 at 4:39 pm
If there’s any hope for peace in the region that isn’t imposed from outside, it’s really only Israel that can do it. You expect more of the person in a better position.
Google gaza greenhouses and let’s see how that one works.
Nonetheless, I’m not going to defend either side for killing children – it is never acceptable. No matter what the other side has done. Full stop.
Sitting on the fence for too long will give you splinters, Jeremy. You know this.
With all the billions of dollars in aid pouring in over the decades, the poor, oppressed paleostinians can’t build their own bomb shelters?
Nah, they don’t really need them because they know Israel don’t bomb indiscriminately.
The hospitals are better equipped because the Israelis spend money on them.
What does that say about priorities?
20 January, 2009 at 5:08 pm
“Nah, they don’t really need them because they know Israel don’t bomb indiscriminately.”
tell that to the UN which despite having given the precise coordinates of its buildings to israel still manages to get indiscriminately bombed.
like i said earlier: andrew bolt please come back so these fuckwits can be told how to think. they aren’t doing so well on their own.
20 January, 2009 at 5:27 pm
I find the level of dialogue here intriguing.
Based upon Jeremy’s post and a few comments, I’m labelled a fuckwit.
I don’t take it personally since very few of you know me at all as a person, but it is remarkable when we’re trying to discuss something rationally that I cop a caning for having an opinion you don’t approve of.
Guys, at 41 years old, I don’t really give a toss about your approval.
I’m more interested in knowing what your suggestions for Israel are to stop hamass bombing them.
Now, bear in mind that hamas were elected in on a platform of public works and exterminating the Jews – excuse the flippancy, but I find this really infuriating and humour helps keep me civilised – and have been lobbing bombs/mortars/shells over the border for months now.
Israel pulled out of Gaza a few years back, and that got them no love but a bucketload more bombs.
Before then, with the Oslo Accords, iirc, the palis would have gotten around 95% of their demands, but Arafat said no, and the people were happy with that, too.
So what should Israel do in a situation like this? Should they just up stakes and move elsewhere?
Of course, I’m happy for any suggestions for resettlement options, but I doubt there will be any forthcoming.
I don’t recall suggesting that Israel nuke Gaza. I just don’t understand how the restraint and diplomacy that Israel have demonstrated in the face of extreme provocation is not recognised by you lot.
20 January, 2009 at 5:32 pm
Let’s play a little hypothetical.
You’re at work, minding your own business, the kids are at school, and the air raid siren goes off. You’ve got a few minutes to get to the bomb shelter, and you make it there.
Then you hear the bomb landed next to the kindergarten your kid went to last year.
The neighbour’s kids go there.
But it’s okay, that was a dud mortar, so luckily nobody got injured.
Next day, same routine, only this time the bomb was a shell loaded with ball bearings that landed across the road from the bus shelter your brother-in-law waits at for his ride home each day.
Good job he had a day off, but other commuters weren’t so lucky.
Now imagine this day after day, after day.
How long would you put up with it? And should you have to?
No doubt you’ll think I’m just making it all up. You can think what you like, but how about doing some investigation with an open mind for a change.
20 January, 2009 at 5:50 pm
Leon, here’s a pic of an offensive pro-Israel placard:
http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2009/01/10/01_promassacre_rally_1.jpg
Daniel, you can congratulate the “restraint” of those at the Australian pro-Israeli rallies — who were, by the way, dancing and clapping as their gigantic war machine killed 1000 people in asymmetrical warfare — but consider these words of Arnon Soffer, architect of the 2005 disengagement. He predicted that “when 2.5 million people live in a closed-off Gaza, it’s going to be a human catastrophe. Those people will become even bigger animals than they are today, with the aid of an insane fundamentalist Islam. The pressure at the border will be awful.”
He was unambiguous about what Israel would have to do: “If we want to remain alive, we will have to kill and kill and kill. All day, every day.” Soffer hoped that eventually, Palestinians would give up and leave Gaza altogether.
20 January, 2009 at 5:58 pm
“Based upon Jeremy’s post and a few comments, I’m labelled a fuckwit. ”
actually, no. it’s based upon the stupid remarks you’ve made on this blog in relation to the situation in gaza, the latest war with israel, your ignorance of how most palestinians are living, using one photo at a rally and attributing the views expressed on the placard to an entire section of the Australian population etc, etc, etc. at 41 years of age you might not give a toss how others think of you, but you should be concerned at how ignorant you sound.
20 January, 2009 at 6:09 pm
Dear Nilk, the suffering of those at Sderot is unfortunate but it is NOTHING compared to the suffering inflicted upon those in Gaza — “a vast concentration camp”, said the Vatican envoy — in the lead up to the current war.
I quote THE INDEPENDENT:
The Israeli government did indeed withdraw from the Gaza Strip in 2005 – in order to be able to intensify control of the West Bank. Ariel Sharon’s senior adviser, Dov Weisglass, was unequivocal about this, explaining: “The disengagement [from Gaza] is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians… this whole package that is called the Palestinian state has been removed from our agenda indefinitely.”
Ordinary Palestinians were horrified by this, and by the fetid corruption of their own Fatah leaders, so they voted for Hamas. It certainly wouldn’t have been my choice – an Islamist party is antithetical to all my convictions – but we have to be honest. It was a free and democratic election, and it was not a rejection of a two-state solution. The most detailed polling of Palestinians, by the University of Maryland, found that 72 per cent want a two-state solution on the 1967 borders, while fewer than 20 per cent want to reclaim the whole of historic Palestine. So, partly in response to this pressure, Hamas offered Israel a long, long ceasefire and a de facto acceptance of two states, if only Israel would return to its legal borders.
Rather than seize this opportunity and test Hamas’s sincerity, the Israeli government reacted by punishing the entire civilian population. It announced that it was blockading the Gaza Strip in order to “pressure” its people to reverse the democratic process. The Israelis surrounded the Strip and refused to let anyone or anything out. They let in a small trickle of food, fuel and medicine – but not enough for survival. Weisglass quipped that the Gazans were being “put on a diet”. According to Oxfam, only 137 trucks of food were allowed into Gaza last month to feed 1.5 million people. The United Nations says poverty has reached an “unprecedented level.” When I was last in besieged Gaza, I saw hospitals turning away the sick because their machinery and medicine was running out. I met hungry children stumbling around the streets, scavenging for food.
It was in this context – under a collective punishment designed to topple a democracy – that some forces within Gaza did something immoral: they fired Qassam rockets indiscriminately at Israeli cities. These rockets have killed 16 Israeli citizens. This is abhorrent: targeting civilians is always murder. But it is hypocritical for the Israeli government to claim now to speak out for the safety of civilians when it has been terrorising civilians as a matter of state policy.
20 January, 2009 at 6:20 pm
/slinks off into the corner to sulk, suitably chastened.
Seriously, though, confessions, I was there, and this wasn’t the only placard.
There were plenty of others there.
I’m not the one who chose this photo to show what was around on the day. I’m also not the only one who took photos.
Here you go.
I didn’t take these ones.
Maybe there’s something wrong with me, but as an aussie, skip, convict whatever, I find something not quite right about a demonstration of this type in the city of Melbourne, with virtually no aussie flags around. Plenty of Lebanese, Turkish and Hezbo flags.
And here I thought Hezbollah was a terrorist organisation. I guess it’s okay for people of that ilk to march out in support of gaza.
With respect to how ignorant I sound, feel free to email me with the etiquette and edumaction 101 from the confessions school of deportment.
Try debating with me, rather than just telling me what a dickhead you think I am.
Show me what Israel should do to stop hamas from attempting to wipe them out.
Since it’s all Israel’s fault (sic), please point me in the direction of what would be an appropriate action for Israel to take in this instance.
20 January, 2009 at 6:29 pm
i don’t debate ignorant bigots as it is more effective to just tell you what a dickhead you are and laugh at your stupidity.
Maybe there’s something wrong with me, but as an aussie, skip, convict whatever, I find something not quite right about a demonstration of this type in the city of Melbourne, with virtually no aussie flags around. Plenty of Lebanese, Turkish and Hezbo flags.
i was wondering how long it would take until one of the rightards went there. way to prove me right about what a bigot you are. lol!!!
20 January, 2009 at 6:56 pm
“i don’t debate ignorant bigots as it is more effective to just tell you what a dickhead you are and laugh at your stupidity.”
No, it would be more effective to point to the flaws in his argument and debate it rationally. Possibly without using terms like “fuckwit” “dickhead” or even “rightard” which seems to derive from the hilariously non-bigoted term “retard.”
“like i said earlier: andrew bolt please come back so these fuckwits can be told how to think. they aren’t doing so well on their own.”
Perhaps more accurately, can Bolt come back please so confessions can be told what to automatically oppose 100% of the time. Come on confessions, you’ve always moaned that the admittedly moronic Rad is the only person to debate on here. Go on – debate Gavin, debate nilk. Rather than tired old drivel which you spout in your endlessly vacuous posts on this blog which is becoming more irrelevant than the people it used to attempt to bring dow.
20 January, 2009 at 7:02 pm
obviously, the prompt for that sign was the recent killing of civilians by the IDF…
Is it obvious that an irrational bigot would need a prompt or was it just another Sunday for her? Which part of the sign is obviously about the IDF or recent events? I see only the irrational bigotry there.
I used to work with a muslim guy who could admit that the vast majority of jews he has met were good people but he would still say that most jews are evil because the koran and the hadiths said so. No rational argument could eclipse the koran & the hadiths. Some muslims have an irrational bigotry towards jews. Why do you assume she has a motive behind her sign other than her hatefulness?
You say she doesn’t represent the protest and then you put the argument of the protest in her mouth right next to the hateful sign. I think you damage your argument by associating it with her.
20 January, 2009 at 7:25 pm
What a vile thread this has become.
No wonder Jeremy declines to partake in the kicking (bullying) of a woman. I’d remove myself, too.
As for ‘confessions’, your arguments are non-existent.
Address the points, you whimp, or get off the pot. You’re an emotional retard, and I know there are ‘lefties’ here who have read your ill-mannered, ill-considered crap, and cringed.
20 January, 2009 at 7:31 pm
You say she doesn’t represent the protest and then you put the argument of the protest in her mouth right next to the hateful sign. I think you damage your argument by associating it with her.
exactly. along with timmy’s attributing the protest as something to do with hamas.
Come on confessions, you’ve always moaned that the admittedly moronic Rad is the only person to debate on here.
have I? when? or are you channelling rad by putting words to me that i have never said? that’s very dishonest.
Go on – debate Gavin, debate nilk.
Nilk is an ignorant bigot whose efforts to report back to timmy on her Big Day Out at a protest rally have been shown to be dishonest and illogical. because of this she is now trying to turn this thread into another pointless debate about israel vs hamas presumably in some effort to save face. i am past wasting time with those sorts of people.
Gavin on the other hand is not like nilk and you will find exchanges between he and I on the food shortage gigglers thread.
and in trying to attribute things to me (statements, views, assumptions) that are untrue or have not happened in the way you imagined, you’ve just ended up pwning yourself. again. well done daics.
20 January, 2009 at 7:41 pm
Hi Nilk.
Off topic I know, but I confess I’m a little confused about the use of the term “Melbournistan”.
I don’t get it. Genuinely, I have pondered what the implication is and thought I would ask.
The other thing, and I don’t know you from a bar of soap, being in a different state and not being familiar with your posts, but I just wondered if you might have posted years ago on Andrew Bolt’s site under the name “Chrissie of Melbourne”?
20 January, 2009 at 7:50 pm
Confessions, I don’t need to report back to anyone, more fool you for making this assumption.
Obviously me being there on the day to see what was going on is an irrelevancy in your world.
Since when does an eyewitness get discounted because they don’t say what you want to hear?
Maybe you don’t like the idea that people in this country support terrorists like hamas. Sorry to disappoint you, but they do, and they were out marching in Melbourne.
One of my mates had the opportunity to ask someone directly did they like hamas, to which the response was “yes.”
I just got the old relativist bit about hamas being not as bad as Israel, and Israel is so much worse than hamas anyway.
Oh, and hamas build hospitals, too.
As for pointless debate? Well that’s because we’re not debating. You are too busy insulting me to provide one.
20 January, 2009 at 7:55 pm
Rob W.
“Genuinely, I have pondered what the implication is and thought I would ask.”
Genuinely, I have pondered what the implication is, and thought I would ridicule.
Tiresome.
20 January, 2009 at 8:02 pm
Rob, I’m not Chrissie of Melbourne. I’ve been nilk for years now.
Why Melbournistan?
Because the city I grew up in, is not what it was, and it’s a lesser place.
This is not the place for a diatribe 0 I think confessions is doing a good enough job without me.
20 January, 2009 at 10:03 pm
As for “What is Israel supposed to do?” — well, gee, what they’re doing now sure ain’t working (unless the endgame is a huge regional showdown). Hamas will be strengthened just as Hizbollah was after the 2006 war.
Want peace? I’d say the onus is on Israel, being the party with the massive army and nuclear warheads. Try this:
Retreat to ‘67 borders.
Allow the Palestinians freedom of movement and contiguous land (22% of historic Palestine, not even allowing for “the right of return”).
Dismantle the checkpoints.
Stop the daily humiliations.
Stop building illegal settlements in the West Bank.
Stop assassinating their leaders.
Stop expropriating their water supplies and bulldozing their olive groves.
Stop the nightly sonic booms.
Open the borders.
Stop the massacres.
If Israel did all this, and the Qassams still kept flying, then a lot of us would be prepared to back Israel’s right to a “disproportionate response”.
20 January, 2009 at 10:47 pm
“If Israel did all this, and the Qassams still kept flying, then a lot of us would be prepared to back Israel’s right to a “disproportionate response”.”
Wow – how kind of you (and how valuable).
But how would that actually help the Israelis being blown up by suidcide bombers, as they were before the closed borders?
How old are you?
Twelve?
21 January, 2009 at 12:04 am
So many people finding so many reasons to excuse the slaughter of 1300 people, mostly civilians, thousands of homes and buildings destroyed, and clear evidence of war crimes (according to the London Times and others) having been committed.
It’s really just incredible to read the stuff here and elsewhere that aims to blame others for the cruel and brutal savagery that has been unleashed upon hundreds of thousands of poor people.
But do go on. Perhaps you may even convince yourselves that what Israel did was somehow right and just.
21 January, 2009 at 5:23 am
Master Ozark,
Suicide bombings are the sign of a proud people dispossessed and humiliated, their lives in ruins, treated like rats, with nothing to live for. Try treating your neighbours with dignity and you might find the hatred fades away. One thing’s for sure, blowing them to pieces with tanks and gunships and battleships isn’t harvesting any goodwill.
By “opening the borders” I meant the borders to other countries, not Israel. Even the Mediterranean is blocked to the citizens of Gaza. It’s the world’s largest prison.
21 January, 2009 at 7:17 am
What a great example of the leftist style of argument , the likes of Confessions , and Darryl mason are on this thread. Not once have you honestly addressed the actual arguments put to you
Cheers to Nilk for her admirable restraint in the face of unending invective, Cheers To James Ozark for such concise distillation of just where the leftists here are getting it wrong, and cheers to Lee Harvey Odd world for being the first leftard to openly show support for suicide bombing on this thread.(if only more of you were as honest)
Finally cheers to Jeremy for proving just how silly it is to sit on the fence about an issue like this by declaring the admirable but rather moot statement of principle about the sanctity of children lives, which in effect seeks to tie the hands of Israel in the face of incessant and intolerable provocation.
21 January, 2009 at 7:32 am
“Not once have you honestly addressed the actual arguments put to you”
when the retarded right like james and nilk can actually come up with reasoned, logical responses instead of the typical know-nothing memes common to ignorant bigots, then they will be worth responding to. until then they are simply to be regarded as trolls.
and cheers to ian hall for championing ignorance and bigotry. you really are a shining beacon of tolerance and respect, just like nilk and james.
21 January, 2009 at 7:35 am
“It’s really just incredible to read the stuff here and elsewhere that aims to blame others for the cruel and brutal savagery that has been unleashed upon hundreds of thousands of poor people.”
Darryl, this is the day that a black man with a muslim name was inaugurated as POTUS. From the wingnuttery on display here by james, nilk and ian hall, it’s obvious that the racists’ heads have exploded! the poor loves don’t know how to cope.
21 January, 2009 at 8:05 am
Ozark, Iain and Nilk.
Just a few simple yes/no question for you.
Do you think it is reasonable that religious extremists in Israel continue to build illegal settlements on Palestinian land?
Would you support armed resistance if the tables were turned, and it was Arabs illegally occupying Jewish homes?
Do you support the use, by extremists, of Judaism to justify theft, assault and murder?
(….haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/tags/allTagArticles.jhtml?tag=settler%20violence)
21 January, 2009 at 8:13 am
Darryl, this is the day that a black man with a muslim name was inaugurated as POTUS. From the wingnuttery on display here by james, nilk and ian hall, it’s obvious that the racists’ heads have exploded! the poor loves don’t know how to cope.
Said like a true Troll.
21 January, 2009 at 8:18 am
Confessions
You do realise that such a response makes you look like a total ding-bat don’t you?
No you are probably totally unaware of such an obvious fact. If a blog such as this is to have any value then it is vital that there be an actual diversity of views to fully explore the issues
Why thank you Confessions for inadvertently stating the truth (my bold above) while trying to insult those of us here offering a counter argument to your silliness.
Read my headline post today and you will see that I give credit where it is due to Barack Obama, I may disagree with some of his plans for his sojourn in the White House, but it is easy to respect his achievement in gaining office, his abilities as an orator, and the great responsibility that he now has. Strangely I think that you will find more posts like mine from other conservatives than mad rants that may meet you “head exploding’ hyperbole.
Cheers
21 January, 2009 at 8:28 am
Iain Hall –
I have never and will never show support for suicide bombing. It’s indefensible. (Mind you, it hasn’t stopped Tom Friedman in The New York Times openly supporting state-sponsored terrorism.)
Your response is pavlovian. Leftard tries to explain suicide bombing; leftard approves of suicide bombing.
There are a lot of actions that are indefensible in this conflict, and too many of them come from our side — the West.
Israel doesn’t need “friends” like you who rubber stamp every wretched mistake they make.
21 January, 2009 at 8:36 am
DBD
Mate, you can’t play the Yes/No answer game with me, especially with the questions that you list in your comment, because the questions you ask are just not that simple.
This begs the question , that I have posed many times, of just what basis does anyone living between the river Jordan and the sea claim ownership of the land? This is a very contested bit of real estate and unless you can define just what validates the Palestinian claims above any other then the “illegality” you cite is irrelevant. In any case We are discussing Gaza here and there have been NO Israeli settlements there since 2004.
Unlike some minions of the left I actually believe that the way that you prosecute a liberation struggle is as important as the “justness” of you cause. In fact if you resort to targeting civilians and their children, as Hamas does then you automatically invalidate your claim to the land in question.
You can not steal that which was previously stolen from you. Which of course goes back to what I have just said about the ownership of the land in question.
21 January, 2009 at 8:39 am
If a blog such as this is to have any value then it is vital that there be an actual diversity of views to fully explore the issues
yes, here we go, the typical rationalisation in defence of bigotry: diversity of views is the important thing. it doesn’t matter that the views spewed forth by ignorant bigots are vile, hateful, racist and divisive. just so long as your able to say it, then that’s what gives a blog like this its value.
if james, nilk and yourself (and i lump you with them because you were so quick to defend them) want to “fully explore the issues” using bigoted, ill-informed commentary about gazans then i believe there are 2 news ltd blogs in particular where those types of viewpoints are not just supported, but encouraged.
21 January, 2009 at 8:45 am
Lee Harvey Oddworld
Trying to “explain It” Ha! you have just realised the real effect of your statement and now you are in the most furious back-pedal mode. Most amusing,
I love to see a leftard squirm in the morning.
:lol:
21 January, 2009 at 8:48 am
LOL!
So your argument relies on denying the actual history of the region, and instead basing your argument on a 2000 year old bedtime story. And you expect to be taken seriously?
Have you even educated yourself as to the history of modern Israel?
Lets get this straight, you shining beacon of tolerance and respect…
“Do you think it is reasonable that religious extremists in Israel continue to build illegal settlements on Palestinian land?”
YES
‘Would you support armed resistance if the tables were turned, and it was Arabs illegally occupying Jewish homes?’
YES
Do you support the use, by extremists, of Judaism to justify theft, assault and murder?
YES
21 January, 2009 at 8:54 am
confessions
I count myself in very fine company indeed to “lumped in” with James and Nilk. But You do seem rather miffed that there is some actual debate here rather than the usual chorus of “we hate Tim and Andrew” stuff that you seem to crave so much.
cheers
21 January, 2009 at 8:56 am
“have never and will never show support for suicide bombing. ”
If my family were ‘collateral damaged’ I’d like to think that I’d have the balls to suicide if I could take some of the ‘collateral damagers’ with me.
Of course I have hard time when the target is other innocent civilians. Soldiers though, if they’d occupied and killed my loved ones, I’d have nothing to live for, I’d like to take a few of the pricks who’d slaughtered my family with me.
For those wingnuts who’ll be infuriated by my post, ask yourself this, if you were being occupied by an aggressor who’d bombed your town to rubble, killed many civilians, what would you do? Would you just sit there and take it like a week coward? Or would you have the balls to do something about it?
21 January, 2009 at 8:58 am
Sorry, that should be ‘weak coward’
21 January, 2009 at 8:59 am
You have the nerve to complain about being insulted!
Just to remind you of your last few posts Iain…
‘You do realise that such a response makes you look like a total ding-bat don’t you?’
What does your ‘mythology based’ assesment of the Israel/ Palestine conflict say about you then?
‘I love to see a leftard squirm in the morning.’
Small things amuse small minds, i suppose.
‘cheers to Lee Harvey Odd world for being the first leftard to openly show support for suicide bombing’
And being deliberately obtuse. Excellent!
And then you use a bit of revisionist history to justify murder and theft.
You really are an Ozzie legend iain!
21 January, 2009 at 9:00 am
Dbd
Kindly read my response again and consider what I have actually said rather than your own self projection.
21 January, 2009 at 9:02 am
You do seem rather miffed that there is some actual debate here rather than the usual chorus of “we hate Tim and Andrew” stuff that you seem to crave so much.
then you obviously haven’t been following this blog. it’s okay ian, we get fly in fly out monkeys here all the time who make misguided, misinformed assumptions about the regular readers and the purpose of this blog – see Daics. they don’t stay however, as they have little to contribute except whatever right wing meme of the day they’ve picked up from timmy or andy.
21 January, 2009 at 9:06 am
Oh dear.
Iain Hall doesn’t even recognise the claim of Palestinians to the West Bank. Never mind the Jewish Diaspora, 1200 years of Muslim conquest, and the fact that the Jewish population of the area had shrivelled to 3-8% by 1900 (naturally the figures are disputed, but they’re indisputably small). Hall probably agrees with Golda Meir when she said, “There’s no such thing as a Palestinian.” (Meir was born in the Ukraine and raised in Wisconsin.)
And this is the hub of the problem, and it has everything to do with Gaza. Because Hamas is the democratically elected government of the West Bank as well, prevented from assuming office by the US and Israel, who’ll deal only with the quisling Mahmoud Abbas — a man who’s willing to trade away much of his people’s land for money and flashing cameras (and is becoming increasingly discredited for doing so).
So Hamas — which refused to make such concessions — was isolated in Gaza, where it had to stage a coup to seize power. And since then it’s been ceaselessly blockaded (“put on a diet”) and provoked (it was Israel who broke the ceasefire on 4 Nov and 17 Nov), and finally put under a merciless barrage of weaponry in a bald attempt to annihilate it.
21 January, 2009 at 9:06 am
Rob J
My objection to suicide bombing is very much about the targeting of civilians than the act of suicide itself. if your position is that it is justified only when targets are soldiers, then yours is a morally defensible position. Confessions makes no such exception for civilians as targets so his position is indefensible.
21 January, 2009 at 9:09 am
LHO
I have to take my son to his swimming lesson so I’ll get back to you later .
But you misread me if you think I am denying history,on the contrary I am asking YOU some post pertinent question about that history and you seem rather unwilling to answer them.
Cheers
21 January, 2009 at 9:10 am
What would you do Iain, if the town you lived in was aggressively occupied, turned to rubble and many innocents had been slaughtered, maybe your loved ones? What exactly would you do?
“Confessions makes no such exception for civilians as targets so his position is indefensible.”
Bullshit – I suppose confessions has to state on the record before every single post that she doesn’t condone suicide bombings of civilians to satisfy you? If confessions has condemned Hamas rocket attacks (and she has) I don’t beleiev she supports terrorist attacks on civilians.
I’m really interested in what you would do if you were in Gaza as a Palestinain?
21 January, 2009 at 9:12 am
except that confessions hasn’t even made mention of suicide bombers on this thread at all! more evidence that ian doesn’t read this blog, just makes assumptions about the people who contribute to it.
21 January, 2009 at 9:15 am
Ok Iaian,
You were asked whether you approve of illegal settlements, your answer was that the settlements are not illegal. Despite the fact that the UN and even the government of Israel have declared them to be so . I must assume from this that you do approve.
You then claim that Hamas use of violence immediately invalidates their claim on the land. However you do not suggest that settler violence invalidates THEIR claim on the land. So again, i must assume that you believe the Palestinains, unlike the Israelis, do not have the right to resist the occupation and do not have a right to use violence to achieve their goals.
You then again use mythology and revisionist history to explain away the theft of land and violence by settlers against Palestinians as being irrelevant.
‘You can not steal that which was previously stolen from you’
So im assuming from this statement that you would approve of australian aboriginal land rights claims on valuable pieces of real estate?
Remember, you can’t steal whats already been stolen from you!
21 January, 2009 at 9:19 am
“‘You can not steal that which was previously stolen from you’
So im assuming from this statement that you would approve of australian aboriginal land rights claims on valuable pieces of real estate? ”
Nice one DbD, I can safely assume that Iain would have no issue with him being evicted from his home by a Native Australian.
21 January, 2009 at 9:36 am
DbD: ian is the latest to just blurt out the usual rightwing talking points in relation to the israel/palestine conflict without thinking about what he is saying. the same simplistic wrong vs right, good vs bad, left vs right small target thinking that allows them to simply brush over the awkward issues of civilian deaths and illegal occupation. we’ve already established that ian hasn’t read the comments in this blog, he’s just cheersquadded the rightards and made assumptions about leftists.
reading some of the comments at timmy’s you can’t help but wonder if this unwillingness to critise anything israel is only about a fear of being labeled anti-semite rather than willing to display critical thinking, humanitarianism and encouraging the parties to find a political rather than military solution to the conflict. note to the wingnuts: criticising the policies of the israeli government doesn’t make you a jew-hater.
21 January, 2009 at 9:54 am
Funny thing is, the 2006 Lebanon War is universally regarded as a failure — it achieved nothing, only strengthened Hizbollah.
The Iraq War — built on a foundation of lies — is perhaps the greatest disaster of American foreign policy history (Madeleine Albright’s words).
The 2008-9 turkey shoot in Gaza will almost certainly join that growing list of debacles, destabilizing Abbas and empowering Hamas.
And yet the Bolts and Blairs will continue to cheerlead anything their favoured governments do. They’ll cheer when Netanyahu launches air-raids on Iran (“He had to do it!”). They’ll gasp in horror when some lunatic fires a rocket into Tel Aviv (“They hate our freedoms!”). And they’ll cheer again if a nuclear warhead is dropped on Syria or Iran (“A tough decision for tough times!”)
21 January, 2009 at 10:02 am
My fav bit of the Sun 4th January, “peace” protest in Melbourne was not just the burning of the flag of the Jewish state, but the racist pricks who also saw fit to burn the Star of David symbol.
Religious tolerance doesn’t seem to come quite so easily to the rednecked bigots at these rallies.
Maybe they’ll don white hoods next time, too.
21 January, 2009 at 10:38 am
‘Maybe they’ll don white hoods next time, too.’
Nah, just an ozzie flag worn as a cape.
(news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,,5830569,00.jpg)
(farm3.static.flickr.com/2335/2377111936_77993d8cbc_o.jpg)
21 January, 2009 at 10:59 am
“Religious tolerance doesn’t seem to come quite so easily to the rednecked bigots at these rallies.”
You talking about the white trash at Cronulla?
21 January, 2009 at 11:19 am
Maybe they’ll don white hoods next time, too.
they don’t need to. certain news ltd blogs give them all the opportunity they need to spew forth racist, bigotted comment.
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/pats_black/#commentsmore
also see timmy’s nudge nudge wink wink to bestiality linked on toaf’s food shortage gigglers thread.
21 January, 2009 at 1:44 pm
I don’t particularly like the idea of young children being used in any kind of rally or demonstration, aside from the fact I believe there is always a risk of them being injured if something goes wrong, I just think it is exploiting them to make a point that, in most cases, few if any would really understand.
Just my opinion, I’m interested to know what others here think….
21 January, 2009 at 2:01 pm
“Just my opinion, I’m interested to know what others here think….”
I think that demonstrations are a waste of time. There’s only one thing that counts, that’s money. I’m gonna take Naomi Klein’s advice and boycott anything from Israel, the dollar is the only vote that really counts. I doubt many opposed to the IDFs actions in Gaza will boycott but at least I can have a clear conscience that I’m not directly sponsoring the use of white phosphor in civilian areas and other war crimes.
If the people that count (EU) did boycott Israel I bet you any money that all of a sudden Israel’s response to Hamas rockets would all of a sudden, as if by magic become more proportional, thus become more reasonable.
21 January, 2009 at 2:34 pm
I have thre things to say –
1. RobW, I was SURE Nilk was Chrissie of Melbourne. Reading Nilk’s stuff was giving me flashbacks to my Bolt blogging days. All that Melbournistan stuff was very familiar.
2. “Go back and read what I actually said and rebut that” is not shit debating tactic. It’s a cop out and is used by all sides too often. Not to mention, it is usually a sign that what you have written is unclear.
3. Both Israel and Hamas have acted deplorably. The entire conflict is vile, and it pisses me off that people think that I would support one side or the other just because I voted for Rudd. In fact, it pisses me off that people think that I am pro Hamas, pro holocaust, pro gay, pro Islam, pro abortion, pro terrorist, pro Osama, pro Obama, pro vegan, pro trees, pro whales…just because I voted for Rudd.
Pigeonholing asswipes.
21 January, 2009 at 2:36 pm
*sigh*
I failed to spell check.
Hall is going to go sic.
Hee. Go sic. I crack myself up.
21 January, 2009 at 4:39 pm
‘I can safely assume that Iain would have no issue with him being evicted from his home by a Native Australian.’
If he gives them any trouble, they can always set fire to his neighbours house to provide covering smoke for the advancing traditional owners!
“Just my opinion, I’m interested to know what others here think….”
Gav, i agree with you on your point about small children at protests. There is too much risk to the child if things go wrong, and is probably a tactic to gain sympathy or photo opportunities.
In any case children have no place at a rally until they understand what they are protesting about.
But once they are 12 or so, and have a strong opinion about something, then more power to them!
21 January, 2009 at 7:33 pm
James Ozark.
You decided I was ridiculing for asking a question. I don’t live in Melbourne, I’ve heard the expression and wondered what it referred to.
Believe it or not, I wondered if it was used to kind of imply that the current government was behaving in a totalitarian or extremist manner.
I asked a question. Nilk answered the question, I’ve never communicated with her before and have not insulted her.
Too many people here assume that everyone stays glued to every post, all day. I don’t, I log in once a day, usually at night and it is really hard to keep up with all the back and forth, the acronyms the jargon and past history.
You didn’t try to answer.
21 January, 2009 at 7:48 pm
Just my opinion, I’m interested to know what others here think….
i’m not fussed about kids being at protests – whatever. some of the best (and most peaceful) protests i’ve been at have been family affairs. but when kids are used as quasi props for parents to vent their bigotry and hatred, not ok. but GavinM let’s put this back into the purpose of this thread. Nilk took one photo of one child with one placard and decided that this represents the mindset of all those who are opposed to the israeli bombing of gazan citizens in the recent conflict. that is illogical, and she has rightly been roundly criticised for it.
I’m gonna take Naomi Klein’s advice and boycott anything from Israel, the dollar is the only vote that really counts.
I thought klein provided sound logic in her recent articles. when the EU can impose trade sanctions on israel, then that will be even better! on a more positive note, obama’s inauguration speech seemed to reach out to the muslim world, something the previous adminstration has not done. know hope.
21 January, 2009 at 8:56 pm
The debate here is very asymmetrical. Critics of Israel’s brutal policies are expected to virulently denounce each and every form of Palestinian resistance, yet I don’t see a single word of criticism for Israel by the right-wingers here.
Meanwhile, evidence of IDF atrocities against civilians continues to mount:
AMNESTY International has said that Israel’s use during the Gaza offensive of white phosphorus — banned under international law for use near civilians — was “clear and undeniable”.
http://www.theage.com.au/world/israeli-use-of-white-phosphorus-undeniable-amnesty-20090120-7lmi.html
21 January, 2009 at 8:59 pm
thr,
The Red Cross backs Israel, denying illegal use of white phosphorous.
“it’s not very unusual to use phosphorus to create smoke or illuminate a target. We have no evidence to suggest it’s being used in any other way”
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j2vQ8GynRSG8lBEQir4RtXL9Ib2AD95MF0M81
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090113/world/red_cross_white_phosphorus_1
21 January, 2009 at 9:01 pm
What a vile thread this has become.
Nurse, my sides! Aren’t the charming threads at AWH under your name, James?
21 January, 2009 at 9:03 pm
Lets consider the responses to my comments in detail
Rob J
One thing I certainly would not do is set out to deliberately try to kill the children and the civilians on the other side, as I said even if you have the most “just” cause in the world if you have to use immoral methods then the price is just too high.
You are making excuses for the methodology used by Hamas here Rob and even if you don’t overtly say it you are condoning the suicide bombing of Israeli buses and coffee shops , you are condoning the firing of missiles into civilian areas of Israel.
No Rob because that would be mere lip service and entirely lacking in sincerity.
I would work at building a positive future rather than buying into the death loving ideology of Hamas , Fatah and every other Islamic nut job out there.
confessions
I read this blog enough to know that you are really just looking for a reason to vent about anyone who dares to disagree with the lefty song book.
DbD
Ok Iain,
No Mate, my answer was a question about what YOU think validates the Palestinian claim to any of the land there and you have done a side step to avoid answering what should be a fairly easy question for you to answer. You are just dodging Care to have another go at it?
Assume whatever you like but you dancing with yourself by doing so How about instead of assuming anything you answer my questions instead? That is so simple that even a lefty can do it.
The reason I ask you to provide a validation of their claim to the land is simply because the real estate is so contested and I am curious to know how your reasoning on the most pertinent question of the issue actually works
No actually I do not support that argument at all and what I am trying to get YOU to appreciate is that the way that a claim to any land is validated matters.
confessions
Gee since when has considering what is right and wrong or what is moral and ethical been such a bad thing?
Hang on I forgot that I am on Planet Latte here.
#
Lee Harvey Oddworld
I don’t know Hezbollah were bloody quick to deny responsibility for those few stray missiles launched at Israel so that says more than all of their claims of “victory”
The fundamental truth is that Saddam was the father of those lies and the question we should ask is how many would have died under the heel of his dictatorship…
It is so very convenient for lefties like you to make such claims but Hamas have actually been very substantially degraded as a result of this campaign and their ability to re stock their arsenals will be likewise compromised, hopefully for a very long time.
I’m thinking Monty Pythons Black knight here actually…
You really do love those conspiracy theories don’t You?
21 January, 2009 at 9:43 pm
I read this blog enough to know that you are really just looking for a reason to vent about anyone who dares to disagree with the lefty song book.
then it shouldn’t be too difficult for you to provide evidence of where I have ever sympahtised with suicide bombers – either on this thread or on this blog. I suspect you’ve confused me with LHO, but I’m not lady enough to give you that out. so please provide the posts i’ve contributed to this blog that demonstrate what you assert.
Gee since when has considering what is right and wrong or what is moral and ethical been such a bad thing?
LOL!! suddenly ian “i’ve been reading this blog long enough to know you” hall is concerned with what is right and wrong, despite having been shown to not read what commenters post, and despite having cheersquadded for ignorant bigots – on this very thread! DbD has got you, and instead of reacting graciously like the person who’s been argued into a corner, you fling insults around like a typical rightard. as THR says, “nurse, my sides”!
cause this fucking patient is revolting!!!
21 January, 2009 at 11:01 pm
The old canard about how the Israelis are using phosphorus.
Whether they are or aren’t, I’ve not had the time to go hunting, but hearsay has it that the IDF are investigating the claim.
Jeremy, I’m probably going to piss off your friends, but they’re not exactly welcoming, are they?
Apparently rightwingers have to criticise Israel, so I will – they should never have ceased their action against hamas back in 2006. When hamas kidnapped Gilad Shalit, by tunneling under the border, they committed an act of war.
By Israel backing down, they emboldened their enemy.
When the mortars continually rained down over Israel, that was okay too, because they’re only small munitions and the Israelis have bomb shelters and air raid sirens; the palestinians don’t, and in any case, all that aid money that’s been given to them over the years wasn’t enough to build decent housing and infrastructure and educate their children to not want to kill jews.
Those who say they don’t support suicide bombers are fooling themselves. Suicide bombers deliberately target innocent people, and the palestinians have made it a very popular tool.
Go watch Suicide Killers and hear what they have to say for themselves.
It is tiresome to be castigated for having an opinion that is different to yours, confessions.
You are not interested in conversation; you want to shout down the opposition.
Are you so afraid of a different opinion? Holy crap! A conservative thinker who believes in God and thinks that Israel shouldn’t have to roll over and die to make you feel better.
How can you be so filled with anger?
I spoke to an atheist fellow on Sunday who castigated me for just those reasons. He ranted and carried on, and called me evil and oppressive and I was an insult to him just because I am christian. He denigrated my faith, but since I’m christian I aren’t supposed to be offended.
He’s been going to protests for ages – since 1963, in fact, and I said to him, you are so full of anger.
He said, yes, I have a lot of anger.
You sound like you are on the way there.
There are other ways of getting your point across than just slagging me off. I have not been rude to you, I’ve not abused you or called you names.
Thank you for the shining example of how I should be if I want people to respect what I have to say.
Let the vilification begin again.
21 January, 2009 at 11:16 pm
The old canard about how the Israelis are using phosphorus.
It’s a ‘canard’, is it? Amnesty International and the UN are in the employ of the Hamas agitprop department, are they?
Yes Israel are investigating – but only one claim. The IDF has denied all the other allegations of WP use. The IDF has also taken to suppressing the names of soldiers so that they cannot be charged with war crimes.
Those who say they don’t support suicide bombers are fooling themselves. Suicide bombers deliberately target innocent people, and the palestinians have made it a very popular tool.
Suicide bombers do indeed target the innocent. You are fooling yourself if you don’t think that the IDF likewise target the innocent. It must take truly stupendous efforts of self-deception to persuade yourself of this.
You claim that the IDF are charmingly moral, as they haven’t yet ‘nuked’ the Palestinians. This is precisely the logic of the psychopath – ‘I could have raped and murdered her, but I merely raped her and kicked out her teeth’. This is the logic that Nilk calls ‘moral’.
No, you do not deserve abuse. You do, however, deserve contempt, along with your keyboard warrior mates who cheer for murder and atrocities.
21 January, 2009 at 11:30 pm
yawn. another rightard takes to the bottle and then vents on a blog.
It is tiresome to be castigated for having an opinion that is different to yours, confessions.
you have not been castigated for having an opinion different to mine. you have been castigated for peddling bigotted, ignorant viewpoint about palestininans, positing illogical arguments about protest rallies, and and about people on this blog. i know you are 41 years of age, but for fucks sake grow up.
Are you so afraid of a different opinion?
not at all. if you were a regular on this blog you would know that differing opions are common here. the problem with you is you trotted out illogical fallacies and tried to prosecute them as fact. when you were called out on your idiocy you brought in ozark who claimed you were villified, no bullied for being a woman. as a woman myself I find that insulting; either your arguments stand up on their merits or they don’t, your sex has fuck all to do with it, and frankly you’ve cheapened yourself by getting a friend to claim ’sexism’ on your behalf. quite disgusting.
Thank you for the shining example of how I should be if I want people to respect what I have to say.
except that you haven’t. you’ve cried ‘vilified’ when it suits you, got your friends to cry ‘woman’ when it suits you, and now you cry ‘victim’ because you think it suits you. all in all you’re quite a poor example of so-called conservatism, and no example to women who try to put forward arguments about their own political viewpoint.
shame.
21 January, 2009 at 11:43 pm
I have not been rude to you, I’ve not abused you or called you names.
no, you’ve done worse. you;ve posted ignorant, bigotted, racist crap. you’ve got your friends to post about how you’ve been bullied on this thread because your a woman! fucking outrageous. be rude to me, but the bigotted nonsense you posted about gazans and the implied rhetoric about australia’s immigration policy as it relates to victoria (“melbournistan”) is simply beyond the pale.
grow up Nilk, for someone who’s 41 years old you remind me of the kind of teenagers I dated in high school: naive, incoherent, wet behind the ears, but all so keen to try it on.
22 January, 2009 at 4:45 am
” I’m really interested in what you would do if you were in Gaza as a Palestinian?
I would work at building a positive future rather than buying into the death loving ideology of Hamas , Fatah and every other Islamic nut job out there.”
Sure you would, and just how would you do this?
“You are making excuses for the methodology used by Hamas here Rob and even if you don’t overtly say it you are condoning the suicide bombing of Israeli buses and coffee shops , you are condoning the firing of missiles into civilian areas of Israel.”
Even though I don’t overtly say it? Talk about putting words in others mouths, great debating tactic Iain! I just wouldn’t be a coward like you, sit there and take it! Ooops, you’d be building a positive future (how) LOL!
22 January, 2009 at 6:00 am
I’m crying because I’m a woman?
Gimme a break here. I never asked anyone to come to my defence. I’m more than capable of looking after myself.
If the guys want to come on over and have a say, then I thank them.
I also don’t recall whining about being a victim. I don’t actually see myself as such, but I guess posting my opinions and impressions demonstrates otherwise.
You are fooling yourself if you don’t think that the IDF likewise target the innocent.
Israel and Gaza (hamas) are in a war. War is something that is never going to go away, so we have to deal with it.
Let’s look at how they are dealing with it.
For years there have been attacks from Gaza on Israel, and there has been little to no genuine retaliation.
I have yet to see anyone decry the use of suicide bombers, shells full of ball bearings, that sort of thing, aimed at civilians here.
As for Israel, with its superior firepower…. I’m not allowed to point out the restraint used.
With all the bombing that’s been done over the past week or so, there have been around a thousand people killed.
Out of how many? Half a million or so? The figure I found was 400 000 for 2006, but that would have increased in the meantime.
If there was such indiscriminate bombing going on, wouldn’t there be more killed? (I was going to use sarcasm, but I don’t think anyone here would get it).
We, as a country, are giving at least $31m over 2 years to the palestinian territories.
We’re only one country, and a rather small one at that. What do other countries give? And what is there to show for such generosity?
Gaza gets a lot of power from Israel, and Egypt has built a wall on their border with Gaza.
Do these things ever lead you to wonder what on earth is actually going on?
Why does Egypt have a wall? Why are they allowed to protect their border and Israel isn’t?
And, why is it okay for Egypt to forbid Gazans entry when they want to get away from Israeli attacks?
My questions here don’t really get answered.
I get the picture that I’m bigotted, racist, and all the rest.
Mind you, I wonder what my post would have been like if one of my friends who was with me had have openly worn his “Support Israel” tshirt.
I reckon I’d be visiting him in hospital, and you guys would be saying it was a terrible thing to happen, but he really should have known better – one tshirt like that will incite violence and we all know that .
All said with a sad and knowing shake of the head.
I’m old enough to be able to read a crowd by now, I should think.
22 January, 2009 at 8:37 am
Iain Hall,
The 2006 Lebanon War was considered a failure even in Israel — which is why right-wing newspapers there are now trumpeting to the IDF, “You restored our pride!”
If you really believe the Iraq War, which killed and maimed untold hundreds of thousands (a million fatalties, according to some sources), cost trillions, provided a training ground for terrorists, severely wounded America’s image, and is not yet manifestly over (for there are predictions of a civil war) … was validated by the removal of Saddam Hussein (the one good thing about it) … then you’re in full rationalisation mode.
You claim I’m into conspiracy theories? What does that mean? Is it a slur?
CLAIM TO THE LAND
But to get to the crux of the whole conflict. If you know anything of the history of the region, you’ll know that Muslim/Arabs were the majority population ever since the Jewish Diaspora and the Muslim Conquest of the seventh century. As I’ve said above, the Jewish population had shrivelled to 3-8% by 1900, before successive waves of immigration (Zionism) and the UN’s 1947 decision, in the wake of the Holocaust and immense Jewish pressure, to split the land in two. The native Muslims were outraged — the Holocaust, after all, had nothing to do with them, and they’d occupied the land for at least 1300 years — and refused to move. The Zionists then drove them off their land, annihilating whole villages; neighbouring Arab countries launched an unsuccessful counterattack; and Israel came into existence, taking 26% more land than the UN had alotted to them.
Following the 1967 war, Israel also captured the West Bank and Gaza, which have remained Occupied Territories ever since — these comprise 22% of historical Palestine, into which is crammed a population equal to that of Israel (forgetting for a moment the Palestinians who continue to live in exile, e.g. in Lebanon).
For the past three decades the international community has consistently supported a settlement that calls for two states based on a full Israeli withdrawal to its June 1967 borders. The vote on the annual U.N. General Assembly resolution is 164 in favor, 7 against (Israel, United States, Australia, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau), and 3 abstentions. The Arab League in March 2002 unanimously put forth a peace initiative on this basis, which it has subsequently reaffirmed. In recent times Hamas has repeatedly signaled its own acceptance of such a settlement.
Even Ehud Olmert admitted a couple of months ago that this was the only just solution. Alas, the balance of power in the Knesset is held by some ultra-orthodox parties who believe Israel has a biblical right to all the land (and more). And so, for the sake of some fundamentalist loonies, the expropriation of West Bank land continues apace, Mahmoud Abbas is groomed as a tragic Marshal Petain figure, and Hamas needs to be annihilated because it refuses to compromise on the issue (the withdrawal of settlers from the West Bank).
Now I’d like you, Iain, to explain Israel’s right to the land (the rights of a conqueror, I guess). In any case, do you really think that peace can be achieved if Palestinians continue to live in a swisscheesed territory, riddled with barbed wire and checkpoints and IDF guardposts? Or in a giant walled-in internment camp like Gaza? Under occupation, in effect? Or perhaps you’re one of those who think they should quietly disperse to other parts of the world, or take up residence in Jordan and shut up.
Meanwhile, I quote Charles Glass:
Self-evident Truths: For Barack Obama on the Eve of His Inauguration as President of the United States.
Israel has the inalienable right to pursue terrorists in the Gaza Strip and everywhere else they are hiding.
Israel has the inalienable right to attack houses, mosques, churches, United Nations shelters, schools and hospitals to kill terrorists.
Israel has the inalienable right to expropriate the land of Palestinian farmers for Israeli Jewish settlers.
Israel has the inalienable right to arrest, torture and brutalise Palestinians who resist the expropriation of their land.
Israel has the inalienable right to restrict the movement of Palestinians from one place to another in order to protect the settlements it has built on land expropriated, by inalienable right, from Palestinians.
Israel has the inalienable right to demolish the houses of Palestinians, provided: the land on which the houses stand are needed for Israeli settlement; the owners of the houses are related to terrorist suspects; or Israeli military commanders determine that demolition is necessary.
Israel has the right to erect concrete walls within the occupied territories to put more land on the Israeli side of the line for future use by Israeli settlers.
Israel has the inalienable right to establish road networks that non-Israeli residents of the occupied territories are forbidden to use.
Israel has the right to instruct the President of the United States how the Secretary of State must vote at the United Nations, which criminals must be granted presidential pardons and how he should treat other nations of the Middle East.
Israel has the inalienable right to a minimum of $1,500 per Israeli Jewish citizen every year from the American Treasury.
Israel has the inalienable right to the most sophisticated and lethal American weaponry.
Israel has the right to deploy any and all American weapons on terrorists, whether in violation of international law or agreements with the United States not to deploy phosphorous and cluster bombs against civilian populations.
Israel has the inalienable right to defy United Nations resolutions and World Court rulings. (A corollary of this right means that United Nations resolutions do not apply to Israel.)
Israel has the inalienable right to accuse those who disagree with its occupation “anti-Semites,” unless the dissenters are Jewish, in which case Israel has the inalienable right to declare them “self-hating.”
Israel has the inalienable right to demand the dismissal of American academics, journalists and politicians who voice opinions that question any of Israel’s inalienable rights.
Israel has the inalienable right to invoke the memory of the victims of Nazi persecution to exempt itself from blame for any of its actions.
Israel has the inalienable right to determine what rights the Palestinians have
Thus,
The Palestinians have no right to resist military occupation, confiscation of land, seizure of their water supply, collective punishment, arbitrary taxation, torture, public beatings, school closures and the destruction of crops and orchards.
The Palestinians have no right to disobey Israeli soldiers’ orders or to appeal for outside assistance.
The Palestinians have no right to non-violent civil disobedience, to armed struggle or to international representation to present their case.
The Palestinians have no right to withhold taxes that pay for the Israeli occupation.
The Palestinians have no rights, except those granted to them by the Israeli authorities, whose inalienable rights may not be contested.
22 January, 2009 at 8:47 am
THR,
Yes, it is indeed a canard.
The Red Cross backs Israel, denying illegal use of white phosphorous.
“it’s not very unusual to use phosphorus to create smoke or illuminate a target. We have no evidence to suggest it’s being used in any other way”
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j2vQ8GynRSG8lBEQir4RtXL9Ib2AD95MF0M81
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090113/world/red_cross_white_phosphorus_1
You do believe the Red Cross, don’t you?
22 January, 2009 at 9:17 am
Ian Blair,
The Lebanon War was considered a failure even in Israel, which is why right-wing papers there are now congratulating the IDF: “You restored our pride!”
If you really think the Iraq War was a success because it ousted Saddam (the one good thing about it), then you’re in full rationalisation mode.
I would argue the Gaza turkey shoot of 2008-9 is already a failure, severly damaging Israel’s reputation worldwide, stoking the fires of anti-Semitism, and playing right into the hands of that dude in the cave. The shockwaves might take years, but they’ll come.
Conspiracy theories? What does that mean? Is it a veiled slur?
CLAIM TO TERRITORY
Muslims/Arabs have been the majority population since the Jewish Diaspora and the Muslim Conquest of the seventh century. As I’ve mentioned above, the Jewish population by 1900 comprised 3-8%, before waves of immigrants flooded in (Zionism) and the UN, in the wake of the Holocaust and immense Jewish pressure, decided to split the country in two. Native Muslims were outraged — Jewish persecution throughout Europe had nothing to do with them, and they’d occupied the land for at least 1200 years — and so they were forcibly evicted by the Zionists; entire villagers were annihilated. After an unsuccessful counterattack by neighbouring Arab countries, Israel came into existence, incorporating 26% more land that had been alotted to them by the UN.
Following the 1967 war, Israel also claimed the West Bank and Gaza, and these territories, comprising 22% of historic Palestine and a population equal to the size of Israel’s — have remained occupied ever since.
For three decades the UN General Assembly has called for Israel to return to its 1967 borders (164 in favour, 7 against — including the US and Australia and some Pacific island nations). In 2002 the Arab League unanimously submitted a similar proprosal; Hamas signalled its willingness to accept these terms in 2008. Even Ehud Olmert admitted some months ago that it was the only just solution.
Alas, the balance of power in the Knesset is controlled by some ultra-orthodox fanatics who believe that Jews have a biblical right to the whole land (and more). Naturally these are supported by Rapture-waiting Christian fundamentalists in the American midwest. And so the expropriation of land and resources continues apace, Mamoud Abbas is groomed as a tragic Marshal Petain figure, and Hamas needs to be annihilated because it refuses to compromise on the issue.
In any case, do you really think that peace can be achieved if the Palestinians continue to live in a territory swisscheesed by settlements and riddled with barbed wire and walls and Israeli-only roads and IDF checkpoints? Under occupation, in effect? Or in an open-air internment camp like Gaza? Or are you one of those who thinks they should quietly disperse to other parts of the world, or go live in Jordan and shut up?
22 January, 2009 at 9:32 am
Lee Harvey Oddworld,
The 2006 war against Hezbollah was a resounding success.
Since that tine, Hezbollah has dared not fire a single, solitary rocket against Israel, nor conduct any further cross-border raids.
For the residents of northern Israel, it’s been the quietest 2 years in a decade.
Can’t argue with that….
22 January, 2009 at 9:36 am
Milquetoast – “I used to work with a muslim guy who could admit that the vast majority of jews he has met were good people but he would still say that most jews are evil because the koran and the hadiths said so.”
That does sound scarily like something that psychotic mass murderer Himmler said to the SS -
“But just think about how many people – including Party comrades – have addressed to me and other officials those famous petitions of theirs in which they say: The Jews are all bastards, of course, but so-and-so is a good Jew and should be left alone. I daresay, judging by the number of such appeals and the number of people who express such opinions, the number of “good Jews” in Germany must have exceeded the total Jewish population! In Germany we have millions and millions of people who each have their “one good Jew”. I mention this only because you can see in the vital field of your own administrative districts how many respected and upright National
Socialists have their “good Jew”.”
Unbelievable how that kind of brutal idiocy travels, isn’t it?
Your former colleague should be made aware of the parallel.
22 January, 2009 at 9:37 am
And where does the Koran say Jews are evil? I thought they were respected by Islam as worshipping the same God.
22 January, 2009 at 11:26 am
Jeremy,
Jews being evil may or may not be written in the Koran.
But it is certainly in the Hadith (second most holy to Koran):
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
“Judgement Day will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Muslims will kill the Jews, and then the Jews will hide behind stones or trees, and the stone or the tree will say: Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him – except for the Gharqad, which is a tree of the Jews.”
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Hadith
22 January, 2009 at 11:33 am
try this Jeremy
;)
Saqr then lists the following 20 “bad traits” of the Jews, as they appear in the Qur’an:
1. “They used to fabricate things and falsely ascribe them to Allah. Allah Almighty says: ‘That is because they say: We have no duty to the Gentiles. They knowingly speak a lie concerning Allah.’ (Al-’Imran: 75) Also: ‘The Jews say: Allah’s hand is fettered. [But it is] their hands that are fettered and they are accursed for saying [Allah's hands are fettered]. Nay, but both His hands are spread out wide in bounty. He bestoweth as He will’ (Al-Ma’idah: 64) In another verse, Almighty Allah says: ‘Verily, Allah heard the words of those who said, (when asked for contributions to the war): ‘Allah, forsooth, is poor, and we are rich! We shall record their words with their wrongful slaying of the Prophets and we shall say: Taste ye the punishment of burning!’ (Al-’Imran: 181)
2. “They love to listen to lies. Concerning this Allah says: ‘And of the Jews: listeners for the sake of falsehood, listeners on behalf of other folk.’ (Al-Ma’idah: 41)
3. “Disobeying Almighty Allah and never observing His commands. Allah says: ‘And because they broke their covenant, We have cursed them and hardened their hearts.’ (Al-Ma’idah: 13)
4. “Disputing and quarreling. This is clear in the verse that reads: ‘Their Prophet said unto them: Lo! Allah hath raised up Saul to be a king for you. They said: How can he have kingdom over us when we are more deserving of the kingdom than he is, since he hath not been given wealth enough?’ (Al-Baqarah: 247)
5. “Hiding the truth and supporting deception. This can be understood from the verse that reads: ‘… [They] distort the Scripture with their tongues, that ye may think that what they say is from the Scripture, when it is not from the Scripture.’ (Al-’Imran: 78)
6. “Rebelling against the Prophets and rejecting their guidance. This is clear in the verse: ‘And when ye said: O Moses! We will not believe in thee till we see Allah plainly.’ (Al-Baqarah: 55)
7. “Hypocrisy. In a verse, we read: ‘And when they fall in with those who believe, they say: We believe; but when they go apart to their devils they declare: Lo! we are with you; verily we did but mock.’ (Al-Baqarah: 14) In another verse, we read: ‘Enjoin ye righteousness upon mankind while ye yourselves forget (to practice it)? And ye are readers of the Scripture! Have ye then no sense?’ (Al-Baqarah: 44)
8. “Giving preference to their own interests over the rulings of religion and the dictates of truth. Allah says [to the Jews]: ‘… When there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay?’ (Al-Baqarah: 87)
9. “Wishing evil for people and trying to mislead them. This is clear in the verse that reads: ‘Many of the People of the Book long to make you disbelievers after your belief, through envy on their own account, after the truth hath become manifest unto them.’ (Al-Baqarah: 109)
10. “They feel pain to see others in happiness and are gleeful when others are afflicted with a calamity. This is clear in the verse that reads: ‘If a lucky chance befall you, it is evil unto them, and if disaster strike you they rejoice thereat.’ (Al-’Imran: 120)
11. “They are known for their arrogance and haughtiness. They claim to be the sons and of Allah and His beloved ones. Allah tells us about this in the verse that reads: ‘The Jews and Christians say: We are sons of Allah and His loved ones.’ (Al-Ma’idah: 18)
12. “Utilitarianism and opportunism are among their innate traits. This is clear in the verse that reads: ‘And of their taking usury when they were forbidden it, and of their devouring people’s wealth by false pretences.’ (An-Nisa’: 161)
13. “Their rudeness and vulgarity is beyond description. Referring to this, the Qur’anic verse reads: ‘Some of those who are Jews change words from their context and say: We hear and disobey; hear thou as one who heareth not, and Listen to us!, distorting with their tongues and slandering religion. If they had said: We hear and we obey; hear thou, and look at us, it had been better for them, and more upright. But Allah hath cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, save for a few.’ (An-Nisa’:46)
14. “It is easy for them to slay people and kill innocents. Nothing in the world is dearer to their hearts than shedding blood and murdering human beings. They never give up this trait even with the Messengers and the Prophets. Allah says: ‘… And [they] slew the prophets wrongfully.’ (Al-Baqarah: 61)
15. “They are merciless and heartless. In this meaning, the Qur’anic verse explains: ‘Then, even after that, your hearts were hardened and became as rocks, or worse than rocks, for hardness.’ (Al-Baqarah: 74)
16. “They never keep their promises or fulfill their words. Almighty Allah says: Is it ever so that when ye make a covenant, a party of you violates it?’ The truth is, most of them believe not.’ (Al-Baqarah: 100)
17. “They rush hurriedly to sin and compete in transgression. Allah says: ‘They restrained not one another from the wickedness they did. Verily, evil was what they used to do!’ (Al-Ma’idah: 79)
18. “Cowardice and love for this worldly life are undisputable traits [of the Jews]. It is to this that the Qur’an refers when saying: ‘Ye [Muslims] are more awful as fear in their [the Jews'] bosoms than Allah. That is because they are people who understand not. They will not fight against you in a group save in fortified villages or from behind walls. Their adversity among themselves is very great. Ye think of them as a whole whereas their hearts are diverse.’ (Al-Hashr: 13-14) Allah Almighty also says: ‘And thou wilt find them greediest of mankind for life and (greedier) than the idolaters.’ (Al-Baqarah: 96)
19. “Miserliness runs deep in their hearts. Describing this, the Qur’an states: ‘Or have they even a share in the Sovereignty? Then in that case, they would not give mankind even the speck on a date stone.’ (An-Nisa’: 53)
20. “Distorting Divine Revelation and Allah’s Sacred Books. Allah says in this regard: ‘Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and say, ‘This is from Allah,’ that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for what their hands have written, and woe unto them for what they earn thereby.’ (Al-Baqara: 79)
source
22 January, 2009 at 11:42 am
I’m not a muslim, obviously – I’d be interested in their response to the above.
22 January, 2009 at 12:07 pm
A little off-topic, but here’s a reason why we really need to keep a close eye on what is being preached in mosques in this country :
http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-//5275032/cleric-preaches-beating-women-and-forcing-sex/
And look who he blames for the ‘controversy’ — the Zionists of course.
22 January, 2009 at 12:10 pm
There’s plenty of inflammatory rhetoric in the Old testamant, too:
Exodus 23:27-30
“I will send my terror ahead of you and throw into confusion every nation you encounter. I will make all your enemies turn their backs and run. 28 I will send the hornet ahead of you to drive the Hivites, Canaanites and Hittites out of your way. 29 But I will not drive them out in a single year, because the land would become desolate and the wild animals too numerous for you. 30 Little by little I will drive them out before you, until you have increased enough to take possession of the land.”
And, in Exodus 34:24
“I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the LORD your God.”
Meeanhile, from the Koran 49:13:
The Prophet said: “Indeed there is no excellence for an Arab over a non-Arab, nor a non-Arab over an Arab, nor a White person over a Black one, nor a Black person over a White one, except through piety”.
The Koran 3:84
“Verily, those who believe (in the Quran) And those who follow the Jewish( scriptures) And the Christians and the Sabians, Any who believe in God And the Last Day, And work righteousness Shall have their reward With their Lord; on them Shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.”
Go figure. I think we can all agree (nilk excluded) that ancient texts have far outlived their usefulness.
22 January, 2009 at 12:19 pm
Jeremy,
Jews being evil may or may not be written in the Koran.
But it is certainly contained in the Hadith (second most holy to Koran):
“Judgement Day will not come until the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Muslims will kill the Jews, and then the Jews will hide behind stones or trees, and the stone or the tree will say: Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him – except for the Gharqad, which is a tree of the Jews.”
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Hadith
22 January, 2009 at 12:48 pm
… except that for centuries under the rule of Islam Jews enjoyed a tolerance unequalled in the Christian world (which perpetrated inquisitions, pogroms and ultimately the Holocaust). And now it’s the Palestinians who are the victims of an epic case of displaced aggression.
22 January, 2009 at 12:56 pm
I tell you what Lee Harvey Oddworld I will make the effort to get your name right how about you try and do likewise? Is that fair enough?
Well they did fail to get their soldiers back suppose they failed on that basis but they have done a good job of keeping Hezballah quiet so I don’t think you can count it a total failure.
WTF?
No, despite Hamas making Black knight noises they have been very soundly thrashed and very much depleted from this short war. The usual suspects would continue to hate Israel no matter what but at least now they have been reminded that Israel will not take continual barrages of missiles without making the price for the Palestinians very high indeed.
No it is an observation of the sort of argument that you are running here.
So you are saying that the Palestinian claim is based squarely upon their conquest in the seventh century am I right?
So this was a different kind of conquest then, but as you believe that the Muslim conquest in the seventh century gave them a valid claim to the land what makes a claim to the land by any subsequent conquest any less valid? You just can not in all honestly say that one group of peopel can claim the land by right of conquest and then decry another for claiming the same land on the same basis.
We are back to a claim based the rights of conquest again aren’t we? and when you consider that it was the Arab nations that started all of the wars that led to Israel gaining more territory in the first place.
Funny here was me thinking that Israel had completely withdrawn from Gaza in 2004 and yet you claim it Is “occupied” Hmm It makes the rest of your rant look lame when you make errors like that.
Well we all know that it will never happen, nor would it satisfy teh nutters in Hamas if it did. Their charter makes it their number on priority to totally destry Israel what part of that don’t you beleive?
But You accept the Palestinian claim to the land on the basis that they conquered years ago why is that claim any more valid than the much older claim to the land that goes back 3000 years?
The Israelis have shown on numerous occasions that they have been willing to give up territory to buy peace but strangely the Palestinians have not ever been willing to respect that have they?
22 January, 2009 at 12:58 pm
…so, CF, those Hadith are not accepted by all muslims, vary and are all sourced from oral traditions, and are not believed to be the word of God even by the muslims who follow them.
Iain – what’s the source of the material you quoted? Link please.
22 January, 2009 at 1:04 pm
[...] sweet. Some retro Jew-pig hate. By the way, if you doubted that this rally was pro-Hamas (and some do) listen to one of the protest organisers: “The Palestinian people chose resistance when they [...]
22 January, 2009 at 1:06 pm
“For three decades the UN General Assembly has called for Israel to return to its 1967 borders”
“Well we all know that it will never happen”
then
“The Israelis have shown on numerous occasions that they have been willing to give up territory to buy peace but strangely the Palestinians have not ever been willing to respect that have they?”
They should return to the ‘67 borders, yeah we all know it won’t happen regardless that “The Israelis have shown on numerous occasions that they have been willing to give up territory”
If they did, and Hamas still carried on do you think they’d get any sympathy? Until Israel is prepared to withdraw to the ‘67 borders we’ll never know. I don’t think that they will therefore I think there’s bugger all chance for peace in the region.
“But You accept the Palestinian claim to the land on the basis that they conquered years ago why is that claim any more valid than the much older claim to the land that goes back 3000 years?”
How this gives someone a right over a Semite (yes Palestinians are Semites too! hence the absurdity of people eho throw around the ‘anti-semite’ rant because one thinks that Israel’s actions are wrong and disproportionate) who’s always lived there when they were born and raised in Russia or the US I’ll never understand.
22 January, 2009 at 1:21 pm
click on the word ’source’ at the bottom of my comment Jeremy and you will go right to it
22 January, 2009 at 1:21 pm
RobJ: your wasting your time. hall’s been shown on this thread to be a liar, and by his own admission is proud to be lumped alongside bigots. we may have lost rad, but we’ve gained another lying troll in the meantime.
22 January, 2009 at 1:27 pm
“RobJ: your wasting your time.”
Probably. Iain, who if he were a Palestinain he’d be working working to build a positive future. Though, he fails to say how.
“we may have lost rad, ”
That’s a gain, not a loss ;o) To be fair I doubt Iain is as stupid as Rad.
22 January, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Confessions
You are a hoot, anyone would think that you own the blog or something with all of your territorial posturing. Get a life sunshine.
Rob j
Well I did actually I spoke about rejecting guns and bombs for a start…
But if the Palestinians spent just a small amount of the effort they have on trying to kill their neighbours building their future places like Gaza could have been a jewel of the eastern Mediterranean.
22 January, 2009 at 2:00 pm
Jeremy,
You just asked if these atrocious things were written.
The answer is Yes.
Who believes them is entirely separate. I make no claims on that.
Just answering your query.
22 January, 2009 at 2:04 pm
“Well I did actually I spoke about rejecting guns and bombs for a start…
But if the Palestinians spent just a small amount of the effort they have on trying to kill their neighbours building their future places like Gaza could have been a jewel of the eastern Mediterranean.”
Yeah, because Israel doesn’t blockade it. Oh wait!
What universe are you from? Maybe you are as stupid as Rad, he reckons Palestinians have ‘every opportunity’ also, he completely ignores the reality that Gaza is a GHETTO blockaded by the IDF. (who are aided to the tune of billions of dollars by the US taxpayer)
I’m talking about the reality here so save any mock outrage you may have about it all being Hamas’ fault that Gaza has been laid to siege.
“”Well I did actually I spoke about rejecting guns and bombs for a start…”
Maybe if Israel chose to reject it’s $3 billion in military aid (big fucking guns, bombs (including white phosphor), jet fuel and F-16s to drop ‘em) you’d have a point.
“jewel of the eastern Mediterranean.”
LOL again at that stupid remark!
22 January, 2009 at 2:07 pm
“To be fair I doubt Iain is as stupid as Rad.”
I don’t know about that. turning up on a blog, posting assumptions about people that you can’t substantiate, telling everyone you read this blog regularly then post lies about other commenters that makes it obvious you don’t, and declaring yourself proud to stand alongside bigots and people who, when a woman’s argument is shown to be illogical, scream sexism is Rad-like stupidity in my view.
22 January, 2009 at 2:09 pm
But if the Palestinians spent just a small amount of the effort they have on trying to kill their neighbours building their future places like Gaza could have been a jewel of the eastern Mediterranean.
hmmm. looks like I was right about Rad comparisons.
22 January, 2009 at 2:09 pm
THR,
Yes, the white phos crap is indeed a canard.
The Red Cross backs Israel, denying illegal use of white phosphorous.
“it’s not very unusual to use phosphorus to create smoke or illuminate a target. We have no evidence to suggest it’s being used in any other way”
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090113/world/red_cross_white_phosphorus_1
You do believe the Red Cross, don’t you?
22 January, 2009 at 2:14 pm
“We have no evidence to suggest it’s being used in any other way” ”
It’s where it’s being used that matters, one of the most densely populated places on earth as it happens.
“White phosphorus is allowed to be used as a smokescreen on the battlefield in certain situations, but its use in civilian areas is prohibited under United Nations conventions.”
22 January, 2009 at 2:35 pm
“You talking about the white trash at Cronulla?”
No, I was referring to the racist scum and trash at the “peace” rally who burnt Jewish religious symbols in a sign of their intolerance and bigoted hatred towards a certain minority.
This racist Jew-hating theme seems to be a bit of a common thread at these “protests”. New photos at Timmy’s, too.
When it’s not time for a burnin’, …. there’s always chanting for it! .
Nice words:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=Cqyxx_YzJ6k&feature=channel_page
Unbelievable.
Absolute hate-fests.
22 January, 2009 at 2:39 pm
Iain Hall,
Sorry for calling you Iain Blair — I had to type that post twice after buggering up the first submission.
Your logic that the Muslims conquered the land (not from the Jews, by the way, in the seventh century), so the Jews should be able to conquer it today is Dark Ages logic. Saddam Hussein tried to conquer Kuwait on the same reasoning. Come to think of it, you’d no doubt also back Hitler’s invasion of Czechoslovakia and Poland (if you lived in the Third Reich, of course). And watch out if the indigenous people of the world every start arming themselves!
The Palestinian claim to the territory is based on the fact that they’ve lived there continuously for at least 1200 years, if not from time immemorial. As it stands, a Jew from anywhere in the world can settle in Israel, while Israel refuses to allow Arabs who were born in the occupied territories to return there (not to mention refusing them to return to Israel).
Gaza is occupied in all but name. It’s fenced in. Blockaded. The borders are patrolled. Massive miltary incursions can take place at will. The ceasefire was observed for six months and it made little to no difference to conditions inside.
One of Hamas’s arguments for its charter is, “You don’t recognise us, so why should we recognise you?” But this year it signalled a willingness to recognise Israel. In March 2008 its political bureau said:
“There is an opportunity to deal with this conflict in a manner different than Israel and, behind it, the U.S. is dealing with it today. There is an opportunity to achieve a Palestinian national consensus on a political program based on the 1967 borders, and this is an exceptional circumstance, in which most Palestinian forces, including Hamas, accept a state on the 1967 borders….There is also an Arab consensus on this demand, and this is a historic situation. But no one is taking advantage of this opportunity. No one is moving to cooperate with this opportunity. Even this minimum that has been accepted by the Palestinians and the Arabs has been rejected by Israel and by the U.S.’
But, as we know, a return to ‘67 borders “will never happen.” And so Palestinians are expected to accept conditions that no other self-respecting people in the world would accept, and the conflict will drag on and on and on …
The Iraq War cost untold hundreds of thousands of lives (a million, according to some sources), left an exponentially larger number maimed and traumatised, cost three trillion dollars, diverted resources from Afghanistan (with the result that the Taliban is resurgent, and Osama bin Laden still hides somewhere), provided a training ground for terrorists, made a mockery of the United States and the Coalition of the Willing, gave us Abu Ghraib and Fallujah, was a bonanza for Islamic radicalism, and after all that might still not be over — there are rumblings of a civil war after the withdrawal of US troops.
So if you still think it was a success … can I sell you my piece of the Eiffel Tower?
22 January, 2009 at 2:51 pm
Oh, the white phosphorous canard!
“Amnesty International delegates visiting the Gaza Strip found indisputable evidence of widespread use of white phosphorus in densely populated residential areas in Gaza City and in the north.
“Yesterday, we saw streets and alleyways littered with evidence of the use of white phosphorus, including still burning wedges and the remnants of the shells and canisters fired by the Israeli army,” said Christopher Cobb-Smith, a weapons expert who is in Gaza as part of a four-person Amnesty International fact-finding team.
“White phosphorus is a weapon intended to provide a smokescreen for troop movements on the battlefield,” said Cobb-Smith. “It is highly incendiary, air burst and its spread effect is such that it that should never be used on civilian areas”.
“Such extensive use of this weapon in Gaza’s densely populated residential neighbourhoods is inherently indiscriminate. Its repeated use in this manner, despite evidence of its indiscriminate effects and its toll on civilians, is a war crime,” said Donatella Rovera, Amnesty’s researcher on Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories.
Not forgetting the IDF’s use of cluster bombs in Lebanon in 2006, which are still maiming people to this day.
Where’s Mark Regev when you need him?
22 January, 2009 at 3:20 pm
Yes, the white phos crap is indeed a canard.
Ruth, the link you provided is from the 13th. The Amnesty link is more recent. Also, in yesterday’s Ha’aretz, there was an article indicating that the IDF had used white phosphorous, and that in at least one instance, it’s use was ‘inappropriate’ (i.e. illegal).
22 January, 2009 at 3:25 pm
Lee Harvey Oddworld
Thanks for that I believe that civility in debate is very important indeed and I appreciate that the inability to review a comment before it appears can be a real bummer.
No what I am trying to suggest is that this is a goose and gander situation, you know what is good for one is good for the other. Thus if one claimant validates because of conquest then another may do likewise.
But the hard-line fundamentalist Jews make exactly the same sort claim for the same reasons but they make their claim on the basis of a 3000 year connection to the place. If you support the Palestinian claim on the basis of their long term connection to place then by the same logic you have to acknowledge any Jewish claim that has the same sort of foundation.
Sorting this out ain’t that easy now is it?
Yes but way was it blockaded? why is there a fence and IDF patrols? because the Palestinians just turned it into a launching pad to attack Israel. If you had such a neighbour would bloody big fence?
Hamas has from its very inception been dedicated to the destruction of Israel and it makes no bones about its disregard for the lives of its own people. Just what recognition do you think that they deserve?
Well as even you acknowledge that a return to the 1967 borders is not going to happen to make that a prerequisite for peace is stupid and pointless. Isn’t politics supposed to be about what is possible?
maybe maybe not time will tell
Only with the benefit of 20 20 hindsight can we truly judge things like the war in Iraq, which I will admit could have been prosecuted better, but then I also think that the biggest mistake was not finish Saddam off in the first gulf war because at that time his removal would have met with wide spread approval.
22 January, 2009 at 5:55 pm
“grow up Nilk, for someone who’s 41 years old you remind me of the kind of teenagers I dated in high school: naive, incoherent, wet behind the ears, but all so keen to try it on.”
I’m sure they we’re keen to get right down to business, if only to stop you talking. Hell, I’d have a crack now if it stopped you posting for a minute or two.
22 January, 2009 at 9:31 pm
Iian Hall,
For what it’s worth, the 3000 years claim is disputed — most historians place the Exodus at approx 1350 BC. But it’s irrelevant, because we live in a post-WW2 world, where surely existing borders are recognised and respected (unless dismantled by mutual agreement), and ethnic cleansing is — morally — a thing of the past. Surely.
Don’t forget the Zionists considered many places for their new homeland, including Alaska and the Northern Territory. Initial scouting reports from Palestine included the memorable observation: “The bride is beautiful, but she already has a groom.”
The blockade of Gaza began before Hamas seized power. Hamas’s welfare programs and lack of corruption, paradoxically, is why it was elected. This is hardly “disregard for the lives of its own people”, unless you buy the “human shields” rationalisation.
A return to 1967 borders won’t happen while extremists control the Knesset, the US gives Israel carte blanche, and certainly not if Netanyahu is elected. But that doesn’t mean it has to be accepted. Ehud Barak, architect of Operation Cast Lead, was once asked what he’d do if he’d been born a Palestinian. His answer should never be forgotten: “I’d become a terrorist.”
22 January, 2009 at 9:32 pm
Sorry, that’s “Iain”.
22 January, 2009 at 10:02 pm
It hasn’t been a good week for the right wingers. To start with timmy and his readers aligned themselves with the Nazis in supporting torture, in particular the specific methods of torture authorized by Bush/Cheney, and refined by the Gestapo. Methods such as not leaving visible physical signs, but what the fuck, it’s only women’s underwear draped across their heads – frat house high jinx! Verschärfte Vernehmung I believe they call it guys so you don’t have to use the dreaded T word.
It carried on to this blog and very thread where Nilk, James Ozark and bingbing decided a bit of bigotry in respect to Palestinians might be in order. Again, no thought about innocent people trying to eke out some kind of existence under extreme Israeli rule of law and illegal occupation, just the same old rightwing memes that have been debunked time and again. The bigotry from the right continued with Iain Hall who thinks the Palestinians should just build things. Iain conveniently forgets that the supply of building and construction materials into Gaza has been blocked by Israel for the better part of 18 months, and so is conveniently able to overlook how exactly that “jewel of the eastern Mediterannean” might be cultivated. This is the same Iain Hall who proudly aligns himself with said bigots Nilk and doesn’t seem to have a problem with it. What is it with the right and hatred?
And now finally we end with rightwinger Daics, who supports sexual violence as a way of silencing another person. Nice.
What classy people the right are. Take a bow rightards for you’ve displayed your full agenda right here over the past few days.
22 January, 2009 at 11:02 pm
Lee Harvey Odworld said:
“Suicide bombings are the sign of a proud people dispossessed and humiliated, their lives in ruins, treated like rats, with nothing to live for.”
You must be joking.
I don’t see suicide bombers oozing out of India’s impoverished slums and ruins (the Mumbai attackers were Pakistani). Nor do I see suicide bombers emanating from half of Africa, whose citizens are also humiliated, kept in poverty and treated like rats.
The Japanese implemented a policy of suicide bombing (kamikazes) and they were the Imperial rulers who had taken half of Asia under their command, in control of not only themselves but millions of others as well.
Suicide bombing is a sign of rabid ideology and death worship.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=8dPb1bF-s4M&feature=related
That’s why.
23 January, 2009 at 3:51 am
Face it confessions you are just peeved that you have had some people here who actually disagree with your opinion and won’t just stand idly by while you sprout leftist nonsense.
Don’t despair, after all tomorrow is still another day…
;o)
23 January, 2009 at 5:15 am
Confessions, there are so many things I could say, but I’ve got an early start today, and I’m too tired.
I honestly don’t understand how the photos that are around showing palestine/gaza/hamas supporters with swastikas and anti-jewish sentiment are indicative that Tim and the majority are nazis, but then I try to think things through logically.
Next time you go with your friends to synagogue, ask them why they need security guards and/or metal detectors.
Saying that gaza could be cultivated to be the “Jewel of the Mediterranean” isn’t a stretch. Look how the Israelis worked with their patch of dirt over the last 60 years and that patch of desert bloomed.
Beirut used to be called Paris on the Levant, so there is possibility. We can achieve damned near anything if we want to.
As for the poor, concentration camp victims in gaza (insert sarcasm tag here), since when do penal colonies have hotels like this? (Yes, I know the Gaza Hilton’s been bombed, but wtf is there a Hilton doing in the strip anyway?)
You think that Abu Ghraib was wrong, but conflate it with the torture that went on before it; I guess you agree that back in 2000 when a couple of Israeli soldiers took a wrong turn and got lynched by palestinians it was also wrong of the Italian tv crew who got the footage to actually screen it and show the world what was happening.
Was the problem that it happened, or that there were pictures?
Please note the pictures as well as the story are very disturbing. Also note, in this day and age, we never seem to hear of palestinian violence.
In 9 years it hasn’t gone away.
It’s not going to go away.
Just because you don’t believe someone who says they’ll kill you doesn’t mean that they won’t.
In this case, I believe hamas when they say they want to wipe out Israel. Why don’t you?
Oh, and I also think it was wrong of the television station to apologise for showing the footage of the lynching. These actions should be seen and screened around the world so we know all sides of the story.
People who support the actions of that mob are living in this city, and marching for more of it.
If, as the commies were chanting on the weekend “Palestine will be free, from the river to the see,” where is the room for Israel?
Or do you think only a one-state solution will work.
If that is the case, I guess you can say goodbye to Israel.
23 January, 2009 at 7:24 am
I see the IDF have redefined how far out to sea Palestinian fishermen are allowed to go, normally it’s 12 knots, today however the limit is the beach, the IDF haven’t bothered informing anyone of this, they just shoot at the fishermen, who had to cut their nets, lose their catch and get back to shore before the IDF slaughtered them.
So much for their opportunities Iain, I don’t think that Gaza is going to become “jewel of the eastern Mediterranean” anytime soon.
Ruth wrote:
“You do believe the Red Cross, don’t you?”
For sure, but your source, Yahoo News, and the date, 13 Jan? Got anything better?
23 January, 2009 at 8:09 am
Rob
at the risk of being called a smart arse I think I should point out that in Nautical terms “knots ” is a measure of speed and not distance.
However my suggestion that Gaza could be a Jewel of the Mediterranean is based on the idea that there would be a total cessation of hostilities and in that sort of scenario there would be no need to expect that any “fishing” was suspicious or a cover for the smuggling of arms and explosives. If the IDF could eb confident that the only thing to be rought ashore by fishermen was fish then no restrictions would be necessary now would they?
23 January, 2009 at 8:12 am
Last line should read thus:
If the IDF could be confident that the only thing to be brought ashore by fishermen was fish then no restrictions would be necessary now would they?
23 January, 2009 at 8:20 am
“Rob
at the risk of being called a smart arse ”
Fair enough, thought it was another term for nautical mile.
“If the IDF could be confident that the only thing to be brought ashore by fishermen was fish then no restrictions would be necessary now would they?”
How about the issue with moving the limit without any notice? Actually the notice being firing upon the fisherman? It seems that the IDF needs to be restricted, they appear to be very trigger happy (hence the enourmous civilian death toll in the last three weeks)
23 January, 2009 at 8:42 am
Rob the question of “notice” is a very small one in the overall scheme of things.
Given the population density of Gaza I am surprised that the death toll was no higher. The IDF consistently gave away the tactical advantage to warn civilians so to call them “trigger happy” is just silly.
23 January, 2009 at 8:46 am
“Rob the question of “notice” is a very small one in the overall scheme of things.”
Of course… (WTF?)
“The IDF consistently gave away the tactical advantage to warn civilians so to call them “trigger happy” is just silly.”
Yes, advised them to shelter in certain places then bomb them in said places. Trigger happy is rather tame when all things are considered (400 dead children? Undeniably INNOCENT)
23 January, 2009 at 8:48 am
“tactical advantage”
Which pales into insignificance when compared to Israel’s technological advantage. I’m sure the IDF pilots bombing from 30 000 feet really endangered themselves by surrendering there ‘tactical advantage’ to warn civilians then in some cases slaughtered them anyway!
18 February, 2009 at 12:50 pm
“Israel seizes land for settlement expansion”
Google that Gavin (or any other Zionist sympathiser), then come back and condemn Israel for taking control of 400+ Acres for 2 500 Settler homes. After all you have no trouble blaming Hamas for being an obstruction to peace.
Also Gavin you’ve been ignoring my request for you to cite where Hamas has changed their mind (from 2006) where they said they’d accept an Israel within 1967 borders. As far as I’m concerned, in the absence of any evidence that Hamas has withdrawn this policy the policy still stands.
You’re all bitchy in the other thread asking me to provide proof of something or other (something really fucking petty) yet I made this request to you ages ago, you still ignore it!
18 February, 2009 at 12:51 pm
Heh, maybe I should have made my post in another Israel/Palestine thread, no matter I’m sure you’ll read it anyway.
18 February, 2009 at 3:48 pm
Hey RobJ and GavM (and anyone else concerned with the double standards in the Israel/Palestinian conflict)
Check out the latest update on YeshDin’s law enforcement project, regarding massive failures in the investigation and proscecution of crimes commited by Israeli settlers against Arabs.
http://www.yesh-din.org/site/index.php?page=summary&lang=en
“More than 90% of the complaints and files in which the investigation was completed were closed without indictments being submitted.
96% of the files on trespassing (including all the cases of harming trees*) in which the investigation was completed were closed without indictments being submitted.
100% of the property offenses in which the investigation was completed were closed without indictments being submitted.
79% of the assault files in which the investigation was completed were closed without indictments being submitted.
About 5% of the complaints filed were lost and apparently were never investigated.”
There is now a large body of reliable evidence that points to unequal application of the law, with the protection of the law being dependant on being Jewish. In short there is now evidence of Israel being an apartheid state.
Keep in mind that YeshDin are Israelis, many from military, political and intelligence backgrounds.
(* Destruction of orchards as collective punishment)
20 February, 2009 at 2:04 pm
[...] grounds), that’s not the same as calling him a Nazi; and he genuinely missed the point of my post excoriating his dismissing thousands of pro-Palestinian protesters on the basis of one idiot with a [...]
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