By Jeremy
Andy thinks Guantanamo presents a real and crippling challenge for Obama, now that those slogans about shutting it down (how crazy!) and resuming the rule of law (how pointlessly esoteric!) must meet the reality of power:
How easy to repeat the Left’s street slogans on Guantanamo Bay. How much harder once you are president and must face the consequences of closing a jail that houses such extremely dangerous men, many beyond the ability of a domestic court to wisely try:
And he quotes an article from The Australian that argues that:
PRESIDENT Obama’s plan to close Guantanamo Bay within a year appears to be unravelling with the emergence of former inmates on terrorist websites, fierce opposition in the US and a lukewarm response to taking detainees from the European Union.
Of course, to people like Andrew – who appear not to understand what “the rule of law” means – the above might look insurmountable. But they’re not.
Since when has the criminal behaviour of released prisoners justified holding all prisoners indefinitely? (If that’s what some former detainee appearing “on a terrorist website” equates to.) And yes, there probably is “fierce opposition” in the US to any change in the Guantanamo policy – from the people who created the unjust system in the first place. The ones who just lost an election fought precisely on issues like this. And the Europeans not wanting to detain people the Americans can’t justify detaining is hardly surprising – or, if the whole point is ending unjustified, unjust detention, any problem at all.
This is how criminal justice works: if you have evidence that a person has committed a crime, or is about to commit a crime, you arrest them and charge them with that crime (or attempting that crime). Terrorists are just organised criminals – just like the Mafia, or any other group of psychotic nutbags.
The people in Guantanamo don’t present any great difficulty that the criminal justice system hasn’t dealt with for centuries. The criminal justice system is not floored when you present it with heinous villainy – it’s seen it all. And it knows the best way to deal with it: consistently, openly, fairly, justly. If you have evidence, charge ‘em. If you don’t, let ‘em go. Because, like all of us, they are innocent until proven guilty.
And that’s not a meaningless catch-phrase. Because anything short of this is tyranny – it gives the power of judge, jury and executioner to random people in the security forces, with no oversight, and no rules – nothing to protect us from capricious abuses of power by the state or random agents with authority. It’s a very quick slippery slope – you give people unchecked power, and even the best will slide into abusing it. The ordinary person – much quicker. People are not saints. You might trust everyone in the police force or government with your freedom, and trust that they need no rules to restrain them from abusing it, but I suspect you’d be in for a surprise if your interests and theirs ever happened to conflict.
The point of which is – the rules are there for a reason. The system is there for a reason. We have the right to not be detained without the state putting the evidence before us and without having the opportunity to defend ourselves because if we don’t, then the state can do what it likes to us. And will.
Andy might like to patronisingly waffle on about the dreaded “consequences” of following the left’s evil plan to restore the rule of law – but he sadly entirely misses those of the (on this issue mis-named) conservatives’ plan to dismantle one of the most critical parts of it.
So, Guantanamo: evidence? Trial. No evidence? Free. That’s it. Entirely straightforward. If you have well-founded concerns about particular people, watch them, as you would investigate any other criminal you think is plotting a crime. But you don’t get to imprison people just because you think they’re villains, without evidence of their having committed (or attempted to commit) a crime. Short of testable, credible evidence against them, how can you even say that they’re “terrorists”?
It’s ridiculous that Guantanamo, operating on this principle, has detained these people without charge for as long as it has.
The cry before the election should be the same now: let them out. Today. The alternative, which inescapably means abandoning the basic protections against tyranny on which our freedoms are based, is far more dangerous to our civilization than anything a random nutbag could do. It’s as simple as that.
39 Comments
27 January, 2009 at 6:48 pm
Good one, mate. Well said.
27 January, 2009 at 6:50 pm
“So, Guantanamo: evidence? Trial. No evidence? Free. That’s it.”
It’s not that simple for Bolt and his “conservative” ilk. To do so would be akin to admitting a mistake, which to him is weakness.
27 January, 2009 at 7:03 pm
there is one small problem i guess and that is that the fuckwits who were in government beforehand kept scant or no case files on those who are presently locked up. THAT should be the focus of andy’s rage, that an administration could be so fucking incompetent that they detain people for all these years and don’t even bother to build a case file on them. my question: what happened to all that “information” gleaned from suspects through torture that apparently “kept america safe”? where was that stored?
more on the missing files:
http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2009/01/there-are-no-files-part-2.html#more
27 January, 2009 at 7:08 pm
Ah, but the previous USA government was of the right, so Bolt the “conservative” could never vent his rage upon them or anything they did.
27 January, 2009 at 7:10 pm
Nice work, Jeremy.
I love Andy’s insinuation that civilian courts are bound to let guilty men go free – and that if it was to happen, that would be the court’s fault.
Nothing to do with what confessions noted about the shoddy record-keeping, not to mention the lack of cooperation across defence and intelligence departments. Nothing to do with the use of torture and other coercive techniques in interrogations violating the rules of evidence, not to mention the Geneva Conventions. And certainly nothing to do with the fact that some of these people just might be innocent.
27 January, 2009 at 7:27 pm
the other rightwing meme is that the people in gitmo are so dangerous that you can’t possibly have them on US soil. thinkprogress had a post that detailed the thousands of convicted domestic terrorists held in federal prisons. on US soil. but I can’t find it at present.
another post i read the other day was this one by andrew sullivan. even though he’s conservative and religious, i still admire his thinking and his writing.
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/01/parsing-obama.html
“Ah, but the previous USA government was of the right, so Bolt the “conservative” could never vent his rage upon them or anything they did.”
LOL. then bolt needs to read this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/jan/26/obama-conservative-progressive-agenda
27 January, 2009 at 8:07 pm
Great post Jeremy!
27 January, 2009 at 8:36 pm
hellllooooo…..! can somebody pls release my post from moderation? thank you.
27 January, 2009 at 8:50 pm
Jeremy
you are being incredibly naive here, the reason that so many of these men (the ones that might well be describes as “lower risk individuals “) remain in detention is that their country of origin or citizenship will not have them back.
Just release them is not an option when there is no where for them to go.
Any realistic suggestions?
Likewise you ignore the fact that we do make orders to indefinitely detain individuals like repeat paedophiles even when they have completed their sentences, because they present am unacceptable public safety risk if they are just released. why are avowed Jihadsists any different?
27 January, 2009 at 9:10 pm
No, no, no Jeremy, you just don’t get it do you? The problem with you is that you’ve actually studied and worked in the legal profession. You have a qualification.
Now Andy, he knows far better than you. Just as he knows far better than all those pesky climate scientists who actually study the data. Why? Because he said so!
Get back into line and let Andrew Bolt, Janet Albrechtsen, Piers Akerman et al do all your thinking for you. Life’s far easier that way.
27 January, 2009 at 9:21 pm
“Ah, but the previous USA government was of the right, so Bolt the “conservative” could never vent his rage upon them or anything they did.”
except bush isn’t a conservative, anymore than bolt is. bolt/bush/blair use the term as a convenient mask for rightwing extremism:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2009/jan/26/obama-conservative-progressive-agenda
27 January, 2009 at 9:21 pm
The existence of Guantanamo shows that the baddies that they are winning. Due to their actions,the Western powers let our rights and freedoms get whittled away.
Don’t let them win.
Upload the rule of law and human rights. Defend the right to a fair trial and the presumption of innocence unless proved guilty.
Instead of cowering in fear we should be defiant and FREE.
27 January, 2009 at 9:23 pm
I think this post from andrew sullivan perfectly sums up the gitmo situation. yes sully is a conservative (note, proper conservative), and yes he’s catholic, but his thinking has been far more prescient than most MSM journos.
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/01/parsing-obama.html
27 January, 2009 at 9:25 pm
andy’s got another cracker up
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/gore_on_ice1/
cold in washington, in winter!!!!! warming disproved
no-one tell andy what the weather in melbourne is right now, not that one heatwave proves global warming but if his illogic is applied equally it should
27 January, 2009 at 9:35 pm
“except bush isn’t a conservative, anymore than bolt is. bolt/bush/blair use the term as a convenient mask for rightwing extremism”
Confessions, I always put conservative in inverted commas when using it to describe Bolt for this very reason.
27 January, 2009 at 9:42 pm
yes, my apologies. i missed the nuance there, my bad. :)
27 January, 2009 at 10:02 pm
This is a great post Jeremy.
From a purely triumphalist point of view (sorry, I can’t help feeling triumphalist somewhat, what with the Coalition of Evil, er sorry, ‘Willing’, all but decimated), it is great to read posts from ‘our side’ that are attacking the likes of Bolt from a position of ’strength’, so to speak.
And this is just the first day after Bolt’s return!!!
27 January, 2009 at 11:02 pm
‘Likewise you ignore the fact that we do make orders to indefinitely detain individuals like repeat paedophiles even when they have completed their sentences…why are avowed Jihadsists any different?’
You really are a bloody idiot, Hall!
The repeat pedophiles in your example who are ‘indefinately detained’ have been found guilty of a crime, at a trial and on more than one occasion.
Terror suspects, on the other hand are just that…
SUSPECTS.
Do you really believe it is appropriate (or ‘conservative’) to allow an accusation made against a person or suspicion of their guilt to be sufficient evidence to indefinetely detain them?!
Can you spell Totalitarian, Iain?
28 January, 2009 at 2:01 am
this quote in that article by bolt was a cracker:
“It reminds me that a critical difference between conservatives and the Left is the willingness to consider the consequences of fine-sounding plans, and to judge those plans by them. “
the first thing that popped into my head was IRAQ!!!!!!!
28 January, 2009 at 6:02 am
[...] the left make some very simplistic arguments made on high legal principles those of a more practical bent have to face the precisely the problem highlighted in the quote [...]
28 January, 2009 at 7:20 am
“you are being incredibly naive here, the reason that so many of these men (the ones that might well be describes as “lower risk individuals “) remain in detention is that their country of origin or citizenship will not have them back.”
The US has an obligation, after holding them for six years, to find a home for these people – if its actions have now meant that those people (who’ve never been charged with, let alone found guilty of, a crime) can’t go home, and the only solution is now settling them in the US, then it has an obligation to do that.
“Likewise you ignore the fact that we do make orders to indefinitely detain individuals like repeat paedophiles even when they have completed their sentences, because they present am unacceptable public safety risk if they are just released. why are avowed Jihadsists any different?”
(a) As has been pointed out, these are people who’ve been repeatedly convicted of a particular crime, as opposed to the GB detainees, who haven’t;
(b) I have a problem with indefinite detention without very strong evidence being put of the risk a particular person poses to the community. Repeat paedophiles who’ve served their time should be released, as any other criminal – but if there’s evidence they’re likely to reoffend then there should be intervention orders keeping them away from children.
(Parents shouldn’t be leaving their kids with people they don’t trust, or in risky places, anyway. There are plenty of paedophiles out there that haven’t been caught. If you’re counting on the authorities to ensure that no-one will have a go at your kids, you’re not much of a parent.)
28 January, 2009 at 7:35 am
“I have a problem with indefinite detention without very strong evidence”
Awww, C’mon, George Bush said that the detainees at Guantanamo Bay are the “Worst of the worst” he wouldn’t tell lies now would he? (/endsarcasm)
Iain Hall supports the extrajudicial system at Guantanamo bay, therefore Iain Hall does not believe in the rule of law, where people are entitled to a fair trial and granted the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. Iain Hall would rather put his faith in proven liars like George W Bush rather than put his faith in the (I consider excellent) US criminal justice system.
28 January, 2009 at 7:40 am
Gitmo is a massive problem created by the Right, who rather than accept any shred of responsibility will now blame the Left for trying to solve it. Ditto the Iraq War. Ditto the economy.
28 January, 2009 at 9:14 am
“George Bush said that the detainees at Guantanamo Bay are the “Worst of the worst” he wouldn’t tell lies now would he?”
we also know that the bush administration released detainees who returned to terrorism, while detaining suspects who were innocent. we were also told that torture of detainees “saved lives”, yet now we know there are no case files, so god only know what happened to the information gleaned from these illegal practices, defined as such in domestic and international law. we now know that the bush administration detained people for years and gathered no information and did no fact-checking on these people, there was no evidence on the “worst of the worst” bush once assured us would be used to “keep america and its allies safe”. and still idiots like bolt and his supporters continue to spruik what is now untenable: the bush administration acted in the interests of national security. we now know just what a fucking crock that is.
28 January, 2009 at 9:34 am
Nice post Jeremy.
confessions – spot on. My take on the whole thing is that if you treat people like animals then they will act like animals.
To lock up someone without any fair trial for years is something a dictator like Mugabe would do, not what the “leader of the free world” should be doing.
And then to come out and say there was no torture when there was.. especially after what happened in Iraq..
I only hope that the new attourney general has the cahones to charge some of the former Bush govt and make them accountable for what they did. I know that Obama would get the support of McCain.
28 January, 2009 at 10:49 am
Could a ‘clicker’ or counter (like the Huns road toll count) be added to the top of the front page to keep track of the number of ‘anti-American’ posts by Bolt and Blair. At the end of the year there could be an award for the most ‘anti-American’ of them all. A second competition would be to guess the winning number of posts. I’ll start with 382 ‘anti-American’ posts by Bolt by 20/01/2010.
28 January, 2009 at 10:55 am
The legacy of Gitmo proves what a farce the ‘War on Terror’ actually was, and remains today, though few if any in the governments of the US, the UK and Australia even use that term anymore.
After the terror attacks of 9/11 and Bali, we were told there was a whole big wide world full of crazed, jihadic Muslims who couldn’t wait to kill us all. Millions of them. But even with Gitmo and CIA rendition flights (they landed in Australia as well), they couldn’t round up more than a few thousand, even when they stooped to stealing away teenagers and abducting people off the street.
Successful Gitmo detainee convictions have not exactly flowed, have they, even after all these years. It’s almost laughable to hear David Hicks referred to as a “convicted terrorism supporter.”
The incredible hype of the Neocon-friendly Murdoch media in Australia on What Hicks Did, once again, failed to even approach the reality, but then that’s the real story of the ‘War on Terror’ right there, isn’t it? Hype, lies, and a lack of real terrorists to go to war against, if you don’t count the ‘terrorists’ who fight back when we drive tanks through their homes, bomb their children (accidentally, of course) and kill their neighbours.
28 January, 2009 at 11:00 am
Dam Buster: three things have happened this year alone:
1. new rules under FOIA lifting the bush veil of secrecy. i have no doubt that the media, being the media will stampede with FOI requests for bush documents. expect some things to come to light, things that bush/cheney worked hard to conceal.
2. in his confirmation hearings holder said categorically that waterboarding was torture. seeing as there are now at least 3 cases of waterboarding on the public record it would be a violation of his oath of office if holder did not prosecute (or at least outsource prosecution) for those acts. while violation of oath of office and constitution was acceptable under bush/cheney, we’ve already seen that obama views things very differently.
3. in the dying days of bush administration a senior gitmo prosecutor from his government admitted to torture taking place, and in particular on KSM. with military trials at gitmo now on hold for 6 mths, expect whistle-blowers to come forward as they fear reprisal now their former masters are no longer in power and the new administration seeks to return to the rule of law.
in short i think there will be prosecutions, there has to be based on what is already coming to light about the former administration. as one of the commentators said in one my links above, bush/cheney will be judged by history. and it won’t be pretty.
28 January, 2009 at 11:41 am
First day back writing his column for the Hun and Andy is putting the boot into the Amerian President. What is it with the right and their anti-American leanings? lol
28 January, 2009 at 2:12 pm
confessions – thanks for that.
No doubt there will be military fall guys and all the CiA spooks will dissappear.
28 January, 2009 at 3:37 pm
I suspect there’ll be another Oliver North like trial, guilty verdict delivered and then overturned shortly after…
28 January, 2009 at 4:17 pm
Geoff, it’s the Hate-O-Dome over there. They disguise their anti-Americanism as merely opposition to President Obama, but it’s clear they have NOTHING BUT HATE for Americans. Why do they hate so much?
Rupert Murdoch and John Howard both warned of the dangers of anti-Americanism. Will The Professional Idiot listen to his boss and hero, and hero-boss, and stop HATING AMERICA?
29 January, 2009 at 10:01 am
more evidence that bolt’s living on a different planet by supporting bush’s anti-terrorism solutions, this time viewed through the prisim of the ethiopa-somalia conflict.
http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2009/01/by-eric-martin–matt-yglesias-and-rob-farley-beat-me-to-the-punch-but-its-still-worth-discussing-recent-developments-in-som.html
As for our interests, neutralizing the threat posed by al-Qaeda operatives was a valid and important priority, but the means chosen to achieve it were not conducive to success. Actually, we have made matters worse as those al-Qaeda operatives that we sought are still on the loose, chaos in Somalia has opened more safe havens for terrorists to use, the Horn region has been further destabilized (not that it was particularly stable beforehand) and Ethiopia’s brutality has stoked greater anti-Americanism and sympathy for al-Qaeda throughout the Somalia, and other parts of the Horn.
the bush/cheney/rightwing warmonger solution to terrorism of shoot first, ask questions later but don’t keep a record of the answers is in ruins, undouted played into the hands of terrorists.
it’s only the partisan hacks like bolt/blair and their fanboys who still believe that the bush administration did everything they could to “keep america and its allies safe.”
29 January, 2009 at 10:47 am
Everything these neocon chicken hawks believe in is falling apart.
Their political, economic and military doctrines are all proven failures, but they will never admit it.
30 January, 2009 at 7:41 am
the transparency, accountability and shift from bush era takes hold.
http://www.propublica.org/special/missing-memos
it’s only the rusted on true believer neocons who are defending the bush years now. history will not be kind.
3 February, 2009 at 8:40 am
andy becomes the latest in a long line of rightwingers sucked in by the “obama is keeping bush’s renditions policies” (todays post Forgiving Obama for Bush’s sins) by simply not fact-checking and/or playing by the fox news script.
andy like some rightwingers in the US doesn’t understand that obama has shut down bush’s extraordinary renditions program, not the renditions program per se. harpers has more:
http://harpers.org/archive/2009/02/hbc-90004326
3 February, 2009 at 12:45 pm
Hi Confessions,
History may be kinder to Bush than you think if Democracy does succeed in Iraq, if it doesn’t however, and the country slides back into a dictatorship — (military or religious) — then you’re probably right.
I guess time will tell, these current elections are a very promising sign, but of course everything hinges on what happens when the Coalition troops are withdrawn.
3 February, 2009 at 9:20 pm
yes, GavinM the elections are promising, but still a low turnout by Sunnis. frankly that worries me. as for the US withdrawal, i agree, but also acknowledge that politically the US has to withdraw. also the iraqi government has demanded it. as for bush, meh, his legacy is fucked otherwise he and his supporters wouldn’t be putting so much effort into trying to restore it. ;o
4 February, 2009 at 9:29 am
Did anyone bother to read the piece about Obama having a party to watch the super bowl while people died?
What a crock. What did Bush do when Katrina hit New Orleans?
Comments are closed.